NOT FRAGILE LIKE A FLOWER...LIKE A BOMB.
Oct. 1, 2026

EMERGENCY DROP | Crime Wire Weekly: Christa Pike Botched Execution

EMERGENCY DROP | Crime Wire Weekly: Christa Pike Botched Execution
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Season 12
In this “Emergency Drop”, Jim Chapman and Kelly Jennings discuss the breaking news regarding the botched execution of Christa Pike and give you up to the minute details!
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Hey everyone, and you might be surprised right now because

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we don't normally do two drops in one day. But

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let me explain to you quickly what has led to

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all this. Obviously, if you follow true crime in any way, shape,

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or form, you've probably heard about the boxed Botched?

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Botched. We even botched the botching talk.

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The whole freaking podcast. So the botched execution of Krista Pike. Now,

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as things always work when you have a news-related podcast,

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as soon as you put something out there, something happens.

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And it's like, well, we can't stop what we've already recorded.

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So you are going to hear on CrimeWire Weekly, our

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regular drop, us talking about Krista Pike's execution actually being halted.

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And we'll get into that in just a second. But

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you'll never hear her say anything about her botched execution

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because at the time we recorded, she hadn't scheduled the

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execution yet for the second time. Right.

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They just halted it and we were waiting and pending

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to see how long that would be. And then wouldn't

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you know, as soon as we walk out the dadgum

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studio and get home.

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Yeah.

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It's back home.

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Yeah. So we're going to kind of catch you up

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right now with this emergency drop and As Kelly just said,

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they rescheduled the execution for Wednesday night, and it was

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actually set for 10 a.m. originally, but the appeals court

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for the Sixth Circuit actually issued a temporary stay, and

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the reason for that was they wanted to see if

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Pike's childhood history of sex abuse was was enough to

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stop the execution. Look, these defense teams, they're grasping at

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straws at this point. You're in the 11th hour. But

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they appealed that and they did get a stay because

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of that appeal. And so at that point, it goes

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to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court is either

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going to say, yes, we're going to allow it to

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go on or no, we're not. We're going to look

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deeper into this.

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Well, I want to add something to that real quick.

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When our original drop, I was like, what the hell, man?

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It's been 20 years, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They

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should have had this in order by now. And while

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I still stand on that statement, I got to thinking

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about it more when I went home last night and

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I've said to myself, well, in the spirit of due diligence,

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I guess, I guess I get it more than what

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I said when we first originally recorded, because you are

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putting someone to death and, um, I would say that

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if they are raising all of this and it was

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completely ignored, then they still have the argument of, oh,

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we tried to raise this, you know, and y'all ignored it, blah, blah, blah. Well,

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by them doing that temporary stay that early in the morning,

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then it did give them time to think it over,

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come back, because as long as it was done by midnight,

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they were still in the same day. So I just

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thought I'd add that.

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Okay, so... Supreme Court looks at that. They say, no,

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we're going to let it go on. And it was

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actually a six to three vote in favor of continuing

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on with that execution. So everything is back on. Right.

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And that was about five fifty p.m. yesterday. So, look,

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they didn't waste no time. Actually, media witnesses entered what's

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known as the witness room around 630 that evening, and

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they waited for nearly an hour. Some reported hearing groaning

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and crying before the microphone was on and the curtain

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was open. So she goes in there, they close the curtain,

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and they basically hook her up. to everything. And this

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is lethal injection. I know all over the United States,

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there's different methods of execution here in Louisiana. We use

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nitrogen hypoxia for our executions because of the, uh, the stay,

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if you will, on the drugs that you can get

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for lethal injection, at least here in the state of Louisiana. So, uh,

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other parts of the world of the country, they, they

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even have, what is it? Uh, where they shoot you.

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But yeah they got firing squad that's what i'm trying

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to some states have um gas chamber but they use

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cyanide tablets um and it ebbs i've never heard of

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the cyanide tablets huh but again this ebbs and flows

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so i haven't looked up as of 2026 what states

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have what so just to be clear if you're in

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a state that's changed something but um yeah i mean the.

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State fact check kelly on that son do it i

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never heard of that one because that that's like a

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horrific death Which I know you would say, I don't care.

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They should die horrifically. But usually the United States is

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humane executions.

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Actually, I think you'd be surprised because I do a

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lot of thinking and self-reflection on execution. And I'll be

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brief here real quick. But my thoughts in my 42nd

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year of life on this earth are, what is the

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difference between vengeance and revenge? you know, and holding people accountable.

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And that's why, like, I'm not, I don't think we

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should have the electric chair. I don't, I don't, I'm

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not a fan of that. And if we're that brutal,

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then what separates us from the people that we're executing?

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I don't want to be brutal to people. Maybe they

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deserve it. Maybe they absolutely positively without question deserve everything

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that they get, but I have to sleep good at night.

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I have to lay my head down on a pillow

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where I sleep good at night. And for all the

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grace that God has shown me, um, One thing I

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can be certain about is that if it were me

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actually doing it, the one actually walking in the room,

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I would prefer something clinical that I don't want. I

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personally don't want to be on the same level as

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a brutal killer. And so I don't want the brutality,

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but I do want them to be equal.

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I've always looked at it as that's what separates us

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from other countries. It's the fact that we're humane in

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the way that we execute. We're not like the Middle

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East where they literally chop your head.

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Off in public. Your emotions obviously do take over in

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the throes of when something is happening. If that was

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my child, if Colleen Slimmer, who was the victim in

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this case, was my child, I wouldn't give a damn

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what you did to them as long as they were gone. No.

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You know, I'm in a different position. And so, you know,

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I guess.

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And a lot of, believe it or not, a lot

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of people that have been victims of that don't necessarily

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agree with execution. I've covered several cases where they didn't

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want the people executed. Yeah. The victim's family. So it

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just depends on who you are and all of that. Sure.

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You know.

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All right, so as I said, she goes in there,

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they close the curtain, they do all these hookups, and

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about 7.30, that curtain opens back up. This is yesterday evening. Pike,

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who is 50, was strapped into the gurney. She had

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her spiritual advisor with her, and the last words that

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she gave were, or her supposed last words, were, I'm

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going to leave this world the way I spent most

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of my life, and that is in love. She said

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she loved the people who hated her as well as

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those on her side, then said, I'm at peace. I'm

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ready to be free. This is a happy day. She

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and her spiritual advisor also sang and repeated a short

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blessing about peace and kindness. Now, about 7.34 p.m., she said, quote,

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my arms feel like they're about to burst open. And later, quote,

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she said, one spot is really throbbing. She asked her

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spiritual advisor if that was supposed to happen. Witnesses then

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described her as blinking, smiling, laughing once or twice, and

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then a tear rolling down her right cheek. She started

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kicking at the sheet, and it kept sliding off of her.

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At 7.41 p.m., an employee placed a rock in view

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of the witnesses. uh, which is, uh, I don't know

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where they got a rock. That's what it said. I

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don't know why they didn't just close the curtain. Uh,

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but it was, uh, primarily media who had covered Tennessee executions. Uh,

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and they actually tried to calm some people down who

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started getting upset, seeing the, um, the blanket getting kicked

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off of her. And they said, this is, this always happens.

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It It's when someone kind of goes into a comatose state. Now,

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Pike's jaw was still moving. Minutes later, she opened her

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mouth very wide and witnesses described it as a large

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yawn and then said something that was inaudible. The curtain

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then closed and the spiritual advisor was asked to leave

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the room. The curtain then reopened and the spiritual advisor

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was brought back in, which witnesses read as a second attempt.

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Pike began snoring loudly. Her lip quivered. She made some

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choking sounds, grunted, and lifted her head. About 7.56, her

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body lifted off the gurney in a V, like a V.

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She sat straight up, heads and legs both rising. The

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rock was placed a second time in front of the

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viewing audience. She was still breathing, snoring, and flexing her

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head and neck. and the curtain was closed for a

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last time, but this time it didn't open back up.

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Witnesses asked to see into the chamber that that was refused,

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and they could hear snoring plus doors opening and closing.

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About 8 26 p.m. witnesses were told the second dose

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had been given, and at 8 53 a microphone was

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cut from the chamber, and the warden ordered the media out.

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Pike was still snoring. Now Her lawyer said both syringes

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had been administered. She still had a heartbeat and audibly snoring.

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They filed emergency motions immediately in federal court and in

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the Tennessee Supreme Court. for a stay and for life-saving measures.

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Around 9.15 p.m. during a media press conference, an ambulance

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and fire truck arrived, followed by two Department of Correction vans.

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Emergency vehicles interrupted the witnesses mid-statement, and after 11 p.m.,

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the Tennessee Department of Corrections said it followed every step

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of the state's lawful execution protocol, that the chemical had

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been consistently effective, and that the protocol does not allow

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for additional procedures beyond what was carried out that evening.

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And then at that point, Pike was taken off to

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an off-site medical facility. Now, People have asked, why did

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the drug fail? And it's important to mention, Tennessee uses

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what's known as a one-drug protocol. It's pentobarbital, and this

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written protocol calls for 250 milliliter syringes of this solution,

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and it's reported in coverage as a five-gram total dose,

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if you want to look at it that way. And

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a backup set exists if the first person is not

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dead by the first set. It does not say what

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to do if the person is alive after the second set.

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So Pike's lawyers said the concerns they had raised in

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advance came true. She had difficult vein access, blown veins,

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and a degraded, and the pinto barbitual was possibly degraded.

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There was no emergency medical care on site, and the

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protocol was kept largely secret. Now, they also mentioned she

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has a clotting disorder, and her team had argued that

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those veins she had were hard to access and very small.

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So it has created quite a mess. The governor responded,

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and he's going to have a comprehensive third-party review determine

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exactly what occurred at this. So obviously, another delay, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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And so there you have it concerning to say the

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least shocking.

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Yeah, I'd say shocking. I don't find it too. Okay.

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So there's lots of protocols that are in place for execution.

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So like, I know like Louisiana, we start a second

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line just in case the first line fails. You think

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about the lines failing or not clearing where you can't

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get the drug in. But the, the thing here is

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that the dose that's given in and of itself is

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is three times the dose that would be needed to

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euthanize somebody. So while I am in no way a

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scientist and I don't claim to be in any way,

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shape or form, the idea that even if the drug's

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potency had somewhat, you know, been lost over time because

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of the storage of the drug, you'd still think three

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times the lethal dose was still lethal.

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Well, it's not three times. It's a lethal dose.

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No, but the lethal dose is three times the amount

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that would be lethal... To an average person. Well, I mean,

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I have because like in Louisiana, we did the three

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drug system. So the first drug would be this one

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to kind of knock you out, to knock you out.

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Then the second one is a muscle relaxant. And then

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the third one induces a heart attack. Well, they're going

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with this three. And all of those drugs in and

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of themselves are enough to kill somebody. And I think

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that's part of what the issue should be looked at

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here is that. They want to go with this one

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drug system. So if one drug fails and then the

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backup you have is going to be the same issue, potency,

233
00:13:45.169 --> 00:13:48.029
et cetera, then if you had the three drug system

234
00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:50.379
in place, then you know what I'm saying? What are

235
00:13:50.389 --> 00:13:52.899
the chances of all three of your drugs that are

236
00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:56.559
all in and of themselves enough to be lethal failing?

237
00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:02.179
And so I don't quite... I know that the prison

238
00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:04.639
did what they are supposed to do by protocol. The

239
00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:09.120
drug failure is... The main, in my opinion, is the

240
00:14:09.139 --> 00:14:11.759
main issue here, not whether the prison messed it up, but.

241
00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:16.139
You know, how how are we going to determine the potency?

242
00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:18.110
Because they're supposed to look at the drug, too, and

243
00:14:18.149 --> 00:14:21.889
someone of medical, you know, medical expertise would look at

244
00:14:21.909 --> 00:14:23.429
it in the color and the clarity and all these

245
00:14:23.470 --> 00:14:24.370
things to determine if.

246
00:14:25.889 --> 00:14:29.509
But the potency wasn't the question. The potency would have

247
00:14:29.549 --> 00:14:31.409
killed you. It would have killed me. It would have

248
00:14:31.429 --> 00:14:33.350
killed 99 out of 100 people.

249
00:14:33.470 --> 00:14:33.769
I know.

250
00:14:33.809 --> 00:14:35.570
The reason it didn't kill her was she had a

251
00:14:35.690 --> 00:14:37.269
pre-existing condition.

252
00:14:37.330 --> 00:14:40.490
Yeah, but I'm not buying that either because the drug.

253
00:14:40.549 --> 00:14:42.590
It's a fact. It's a medical fact.

254
00:14:42.970 --> 00:14:45.250
I'm not saying her condition, but I'm saying the drug's

255
00:14:45.289 --> 00:14:49.149
reaction to that because all of the drug, like 15%

256
00:14:49.149 --> 00:14:53.340
of the drug within the first 30 seconds is up

257
00:14:53.409 --> 00:14:56.230
into the brain. And then the rest of it's being,

258
00:14:56.250 --> 00:14:59.049
I don't know if the word is metabolized or not.

259
00:14:59.070 --> 00:15:04.070
Apparently not, she lived. Yeah, but there's still, this is

260
00:15:04.110 --> 00:15:07.909
still such a mega dose that they are giving. This

261
00:15:07.929 --> 00:15:10.240
has got to be a potency issue, not a blood

262
00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:14.139
clotting issue. It's a potency issue because this is enough

263
00:15:14.200 --> 00:15:18.320
drug to kill, I mean, the dose of this is

264
00:15:18.379 --> 00:15:22.580
enough to kill three times over. And there's no blood clotting,

265
00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:25.659
Your blood clotting.

266
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:29.419
I mean, Kelly, I'm not a doctor and neither are you.

267
00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:35.450
And this is a known issue with finding veins. If

268
00:15:35.490 --> 00:15:37.830
you blow someone's vein, it doesn't all go in their

269
00:15:37.909 --> 00:15:40.809
blood system. It just kind of goes in their body

270
00:15:40.850 --> 00:15:42.350
at that point. It's in the tissue.

271
00:15:42.809 --> 00:15:43.149
I mean.

272
00:15:43.330 --> 00:15:45.830
They're saying that they didn't inject. They didn't have a

273
00:15:45.870 --> 00:15:46.669
good vein there.

274
00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.419
Well, then it's not the clotting.

275
00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:49.980
So the majority of the drug did not go. Okay.

276
00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:52.299
Well, what I'm saying is you've got to pick.

277
00:15:52.340 --> 00:15:53.490
I'm not a doctor. I don't know.

278
00:15:53.539 --> 00:15:53.799
I know.

279
00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:55.529
So I'm not going to state something that's a.

280
00:15:55.490 --> 00:15:57.110
Fact that I don't know. What I'm trying to get

281
00:15:57.169 --> 00:15:58.470
at is enough was in her system.

282
00:15:58.509 --> 00:15:59.480
Nurses out there tell us.

283
00:15:59.629 --> 00:16:01.250
Well, what I'm going to get at is this. The

284
00:16:01.309 --> 00:16:06.009
snoring is a very common, whenever someone is executed, the

285
00:16:06.100 --> 00:16:09.259
snoring portion is very common. People who have witnessed many

286
00:16:09.340 --> 00:16:12.320
executions will tell you that there's that snoring sound, kind

287
00:16:12.340 --> 00:16:16.019
of like a balloon is deflating. and then maybe a

288
00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:17.779
little bit of jerking here and there, and then the

289
00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:21.460
person passes on. So it sounds like she was at

290
00:16:21.500 --> 00:16:23.919
the snoring phase, which tells me that she was not

291
00:16:24.330 --> 00:16:29.769
aware because she's under enough to be under. That's why

292
00:16:29.809 --> 00:16:32.629
I'm thinking it's a potency issue because it was enough

293
00:16:32.710 --> 00:16:34.950
to not kill her, but it did knock her out.

294
00:16:35.370 --> 00:16:37.820
I think it's a combination of the two. I think

295
00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.019
it's a little bit to do with her affliction, and

296
00:16:40.139 --> 00:16:43.220
it's a little bit to do with You know, the potency.

297
00:16:43.340 --> 00:16:47.039
But you do it twice, it's not a potency issue.

298
00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:48.419
How long have they had that drug?

299
00:16:49.179 --> 00:16:49.740
I don't know.

300
00:16:49.899 --> 00:16:50.700
Well, that's what I'm telling you.

301
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.799
But, I mean, you can have it 50 years, and

302
00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:54.899
if you do it twice, it's not going to be

303
00:16:54.940 --> 00:16:56.259
weak enough not to kill you.

304
00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:57.399
I don't know.

305
00:16:57.460 --> 00:17:00.600
Unless you have some other issues going on, which she did.

306
00:17:00.620 --> 00:17:01.960
Yeah, I still don't buy this.

307
00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:02.659
And they knew that.

308
00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:06.720
I think that that was grass-mint straws when they threw

309
00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:07.920
out the clotting issue.

310
00:17:09.289 --> 00:17:10.109
What makes you think that?

311
00:17:11.589 --> 00:17:14.509
Because I'm not buying that a blood clotting issue. Is

312
00:17:15.910 --> 00:17:18.630
the argument that the blood clotting issue is caused by

313
00:17:18.670 --> 00:17:21.029
a barbiturate? No. Then it shouldn't matter.

314
00:17:22.190 --> 00:17:25.329
She has a blood clotting issue, but the blood clotting

315
00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:29.289
issue is because her veins are too small. They're saying

316
00:17:29.369 --> 00:17:31.950
that basically she blew her vein out. Do you know

317
00:17:31.970 --> 00:17:32.470
what that means?

318
00:17:32.490 --> 00:17:33.230
Yes. I've had it done.

319
00:17:33.569 --> 00:17:34.130
Okay.

320
00:17:34.150 --> 00:17:36.130
And it burns like a motherfucker. Yes, it does.

321
00:17:36.490 --> 00:17:40.259
Yes, it does. And there, so basically the, They're saying

322
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:43.240
the drug did not get in her vein. It got

323
00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:44.240
in her system.

324
00:17:44.539 --> 00:17:45.500
I guess that's what they're arguing.

325
00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:47.680
There's a difference. That's exactly what they're saying.

326
00:17:48.109 --> 00:17:51.609
But why not put the line in the neck where

327
00:17:51.670 --> 00:17:53.450
it's closer to the brain? I know, but these are

328
00:17:53.470 --> 00:17:54.650
the things I would be considering.

329
00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:56.930
Your neck veins are certainly not going to be big

330
00:17:56.970 --> 00:18:01.980
enough to take that needle. These are 20-gauge needles.

331
00:18:02.180 --> 00:18:06.920
Then push it slower. I mean, shit, there's medical responses

332
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.269
to all of this. I mean, drug addicts probably got

333
00:18:09.289 --> 00:18:12.869
to be a drug addicts. Drug addicts have poor veins

334
00:18:13.210 --> 00:18:14.990
because they have collapsed and all that kind of stuff.

335
00:18:15.170 --> 00:18:17.849
But we put plenty of drug addicts that were full

336
00:18:17.869 --> 00:18:21.369
blown addicts to death all the time, you know, and

337
00:18:21.390 --> 00:18:23.339
they've got a multitude of issues, too. I mean, I

338
00:18:23.380 --> 00:18:26.960
just what happened here when they say botched execution. I

339
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.079
don't think it was botched. I think that it was

340
00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:32.369
an ineffective execution. That's what I think.

341
00:18:32.470 --> 00:18:37.579
I think if they can prove that the preexisting condition

342
00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:41.319
is a major contributor to this, I know you don't

343
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:43.420
believe it. I don't, I don't know enough. I'm not

344
00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:45.369
a nurse, so I don't know enough to believe it.

345
00:18:45.380 --> 00:18:46.900
I don't just talk out of my ass.

346
00:18:47.049 --> 00:18:48.549
I'm not talking out of my, I'm not.

347
00:18:48.369 --> 00:18:50.970
Saying you do, but I'm, but I don't think you

348
00:18:50.990 --> 00:18:55.170
have the medical expertise to make that call. Um, I

349
00:18:55.210 --> 00:18:56.450
think that, uh.

350
00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:00.700
It says, historically, thiopental has been one of the most

351
00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.859
commonly used and studied drugs for the induction of coma.

352
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:07.019
So if it's the most commonly used one, then it

353
00:19:07.059 --> 00:19:11.220
sounds like that's why it was a state-sanctioned lethal drug.

354
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:15.910
Because it doesn't take much, and it's extremely effective. So

355
00:19:16.009 --> 00:19:21.680
it doesn't—if it was, you know— It's the primary sedative

356
00:19:21.700 --> 00:19:23.880
in lethal injections for a reason. And I would say,

357
00:19:24.089 --> 00:19:25.609
I mean, it's not like they didn't look through all

358
00:19:25.619 --> 00:19:28.250
of this when deciding on capital punishment and say, what's

359
00:19:28.289 --> 00:19:32.230
the most commonly used effective drug.

360
00:19:33.630 --> 00:19:35.410
But if you have small veins and you have a

361
00:19:35.450 --> 00:19:37.190
history of your veins blown out.

362
00:19:38.690 --> 00:19:42.970
I mean, blood clotting, either way. I just don't buy that.

363
00:19:43.029 --> 00:19:45.230
I think that that was grasping at straws because they

364
00:19:45.269 --> 00:19:49.420
didn't even bring that up in her initial um argument

365
00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:52.779
okay you know you know i'm just we're talking it

366
00:19:52.940 --> 00:19:53.940
out okay.

367
00:19:53.819 --> 00:19:56.960
All right you should have a different opinion i think

368
00:19:57.019 --> 00:20:00.119
it's certainly possible but i'm not a nurse so nurses

369
00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:00.720
out there.

370
00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:02.339
Speak up yeah speak up let us know i mean

371
00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:04.900
that's the thing is none of us are majority of

372
00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:07.000
us are not experts but i like to be at

373
00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:13.539
least somewhat sound in where i'm And, you know, medical

374
00:20:13.579 --> 00:20:16.549
procedures and advancements today, you would think that they could

375
00:20:16.589 --> 00:20:20.849
do more than just put a damn tap of vein

376
00:20:20.950 --> 00:20:24.650
in your arm. What if you don't have arms? What

377
00:20:24.690 --> 00:20:26.250
if you were a killer with no arms? Then what

378
00:20:26.269 --> 00:20:26.730
are you going to do?

379
00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:28.369
Legs, back of your legs.

380
00:20:28.390 --> 00:20:30.490
That's what I'm saying. I mean, it doesn't, they could

381
00:20:30.509 --> 00:20:31.430
have gone other places.

382
00:20:31.549 --> 00:20:34.740
I'm not debating that. And I don't think, I think

383
00:20:34.779 --> 00:20:40.069
the defense isn't debating that. I think that's the defense point.

384
00:20:41.710 --> 00:20:48.079
Well, you know, the argument about the Eighth Amendment, you know,

385
00:20:48.220 --> 00:20:53.839
overall is that is is lethal injection, cruel, cruel and

386
00:20:53.859 --> 00:20:56.900
unusual punishment. And the arguments, no, but now they're getting

387
00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:58.859
down into the nitty gritty. But I did Google just now.

388
00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:00.519
And this is just a quick Google search. You know,

389
00:21:00.579 --> 00:21:04.539
does blood clotting disorder stop barbiturates from going into your system?

390
00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:07.259
And it says a blood clotting disorder does not directly

391
00:21:07.299 --> 00:21:11.460
stop a barbiturate from biologically working inside the brain. Their

392
00:21:11.589 --> 00:21:15.849
function is to depress the central nervous system. So barbiturates

393
00:21:15.910 --> 00:21:20.589
interact heavily with blood clotting medications and hypercoagulation disorders can

394
00:21:20.630 --> 00:21:28.170
cause massive physical delivery failures during intravenous administration. But the.

395
00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:30.319
That's the problem.

396
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.920
Patient... So did she have thrombocytosis?

397
00:21:33.940 --> 00:21:34.119
Yes.

398
00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:35.440
Is that the actual one?

399
00:21:35.500 --> 00:21:36.900
It's the actual diagnosis.

400
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.299
So it says, whenever the healthcare providers attempt to place

401
00:21:40.339 --> 00:21:42.829
a central line or an IV to administer this, like

402
00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:47.049
the penobardipital or the thiopental, the underlying clotting disorder can

403
00:21:47.069 --> 00:21:50.130
cause the IV lines to immediately clog or the veins

404
00:21:50.170 --> 00:21:54.009
to blow or collapse. So if the drug is leaking around, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

405
00:21:54.529 --> 00:22:04.470
But barbiturates... Hang on. Barbiturates are potent hepatic enzyme inducers. Well,

406
00:22:04.490 --> 00:22:07.769
that's not what we're looking at. So it's basically saying

407
00:22:07.789 --> 00:22:11.990
they can give them like a blood thinner prior to

408
00:22:12.890 --> 00:22:14.339
before pushing the drug.

409
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:17.640
Which wasn't done.

410
00:22:17.980 --> 00:22:19.539
Well, then that should have been done. I mean, that's

411
00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:20.240
an easy fix.

412
00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:22.339
I think that's the whole defense point.

413
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:26.480
Well, then why didn't they bring that up before? They're

414
00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:28.539
just trying to stop the execution. Why didn't they say,

415
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:30.940
if their argument is humaneness and that it may not work, well,

416
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:33.319
then that's what they're going to do in an emergency room.

417
00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:38.769
They were right. It didn't work. But it didn't work

418
00:22:38.829 --> 00:22:41.950
because of the condition that she had. Just what we've

419
00:22:41.970 --> 00:22:42.789
been talking about.

420
00:22:42.809 --> 00:22:44.609
But if the protocol reads... Well, I know, but what

421
00:22:44.630 --> 00:22:47.430
I'm saying is if the protocol reads step A, step B,

422
00:22:47.490 --> 00:22:51.950
step C, step D, then they followed the protocol and.

423
00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:54.880
But they knew she had the condition, Kelly.

424
00:22:54.980 --> 00:22:56.920
I know, but if the protocol for— So you just.

425
00:22:56.849 --> 00:23:00.230
Figured out that quick exactly that that could be a

426
00:23:00.269 --> 00:23:01.069
major issue.

427
00:23:01.190 --> 00:23:04.009
Correct. So what I'm saying, though, is if the protocol,

428
00:23:04.150 --> 00:23:06.289
as it's listed, for how to do the lethal injection,

429
00:23:06.309 --> 00:23:09.180
because there is a protocol, if it says no other

430
00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:12.500
drug shall be administered and then they follow that to

431
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:15.180
a T, then they're not in the wrong is what

432
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.059
I'm trying to tell you. No, I'm not— Because they

433
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:19.900
followed it to a T. So the argument here is—

434
00:23:23.819 --> 00:23:25.359
Should there be a change in the protocol?

435
00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:27.940
I'm sure there will be.

436
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:28.440
Whatever.

437
00:23:28.579 --> 00:23:31.259
Or at least a change in what you can do.

438
00:23:33.180 --> 00:23:37.440
They knew she had this condition and nobody said, you know,

439
00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.359
this may not work. I mean, that's a problem.

440
00:23:42.819 --> 00:23:46.539
It's a problem. Yeah. But they had 30-something years to

441
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:49.849
address this.

442
00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:52.119
On both sides.

443
00:23:52.710 --> 00:23:55.549
Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, they do. But, you know,

444
00:23:55.890 --> 00:23:58.630
they've got doctors on hand. I'm having a really, really

445
00:23:58.670 --> 00:24:05.650
hard time believing that all of this was not reviewed

446
00:24:05.710 --> 00:24:09.079
at some level. We won't know that right now.

447
00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:11.980
I mean, it may have been. And somebody gave him

448
00:24:12.019 --> 00:24:14.079
the wrong advice and said, oh, yeah, it'll work. I mean,

449
00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:17.900
the person, the puddin', it didn't work. She has that condition.

450
00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:21.990
That condition can complicate lethal injections.

451
00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:25.700
My question, though, is if it's absorbed into the muscles, too,

452
00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:27.339
and again, I'm not a doctor, but if it's absorbed

453
00:24:27.420 --> 00:24:33.809
into the muscle and the brain, then let's just say

454
00:24:33.930 --> 00:24:35.609
six times the lethal dose.

455
00:24:35.630 --> 00:24:37.289
What do you mean it ain't in the brain? It

456
00:24:37.329 --> 00:24:38.009
goes in the heart.

457
00:24:38.809 --> 00:24:40.990
No, like when the actual drug, I was on the

458
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:43.920
lethal injection site. I was reading about how the drug interacts.

459
00:24:43.940 --> 00:24:47.299
It's talking about absorbing and where it's absorbed mainly and

460
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:50.930
all that. So. it was saying like the potency at

461
00:24:50.970 --> 00:24:53.539
what level and what phase and all those things. It

462
00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:57.519
was saying that, I mean, even if all of it

463
00:24:57.700 --> 00:25:00.099
didn't get through, because then they say it was so many,

464
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.359
so much time in before she said it's burning.

465
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:03.180
Right.

466
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:05.539
So some of it had to get through. And so

467
00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:06.519
my argument.

468
00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:07.309
Here is probably some of it.

469
00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:10.150
So did the vein, if the vein blew immediately or

470
00:25:10.170 --> 00:25:12.670
within the first 10 seconds, then I would say, yeah,

471
00:25:12.869 --> 00:25:15.150
I think that was a factor here, but what I'm,

472
00:25:15.730 --> 00:25:18.769
or a major factor here, but the drugs got through.

473
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:21.880
It started burning. She got to the phase of being

474
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.880
knocked out, and then they did it twice. That's got

475
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:28.259
to be a potency issue on some level. It has

476
00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:30.569
to be. You don't think?

477
00:25:31.369 --> 00:25:34.910
I think that it's a contributing factor, but I think

478
00:25:34.990 --> 00:25:40.299
that even if the drug is not necessarily potent enough

479
00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:43.680
for whatever reason, I think two of them would have

480
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:44.000
done it.

481
00:25:44.329 --> 00:25:44.769
Me too.

482
00:25:45.049 --> 00:25:48.730
I mean, it's at least 50% of its potency. So

483
00:25:48.750 --> 00:25:51.809
if you do it twice, you would think. But her

484
00:25:51.849 --> 00:25:56.970
veins were blowing. So it's not going to have the

485
00:25:56.990 --> 00:26:01.859
same reaction. That drug is designed to deliver through the

486
00:26:01.890 --> 00:26:02.839
blood system. Right.

487
00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:04.539
I wonder if they tried to push it through the

488
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:07.740
same arm, the second dose.

489
00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:09.119
Oh, sure.

490
00:26:09.579 --> 00:26:11.579
Well, I wouldn't. I would have had an IV in

491
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:12.240
one in each arm.

492
00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:16.230
Oh. That's not how they do it, I guess. I

493
00:26:16.750 --> 00:26:22.200
don't know. Again, I'm not medically inclined to say that.

494
00:26:22.220 --> 00:26:24.160
I know. We're not doctors. We're not claiming to be.

495
00:26:24.220 --> 00:26:26.579
We are just discussing what the hell happened here, and

496
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:28.559
everyone's asking the same question, and we're just trying to

497
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:31.819
come to the conclusion of what could have happened before

498
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:34.220
they do the entire investigation. Now, I'll tell you this.

499
00:26:35.890 --> 00:26:42.210
She's probably brain damaged for sure. Okay. Wouldn't you agree?

500
00:26:42.230 --> 00:26:45.609
I would think. I would think, but I thought she

501
00:26:45.650 --> 00:26:49.359
was communicating after that. What?

502
00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:49.839
Really?

503
00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:52.339
She was saying a lot of things. She said that

504
00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:53.839
her arms felt like they were.

505
00:26:53.859 --> 00:26:54.259
No, no, no.

506
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:56.779
And then later she said one spot is really throbbing.

507
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:59.349
Yeah, but that was before... I'm saying once they escorted

508
00:26:59.390 --> 00:27:01.349
all the witnesses out and they took her to the hospital.

509
00:27:01.930 --> 00:27:05.529
Oh, the second time when she was snoring? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

510
00:27:05.710 --> 00:27:07.430
I would think she's not in good shape.

511
00:27:07.529 --> 00:27:10.099
I'm thinking she's in a coma or something. I have

512
00:27:10.339 --> 00:27:14.190
a hard time believing that she's going to... What bothers

513
00:27:14.210 --> 00:27:15.890
me about, I guess, let me go here. What bothers

514
00:27:15.930 --> 00:27:18.069
me about this is now it's trying to make her

515
00:27:18.130 --> 00:27:21.970
into a victim. And that bothers me. On an emotional level,

516
00:27:22.029 --> 00:27:23.430
that bothers me. We told you how this was going

517
00:27:23.450 --> 00:27:25.910
to happen. She's been victimized. She's been brutalized. And that's

518
00:27:25.930 --> 00:27:28.970
where I go, well, you know, we didn't try to

519
00:27:29.009 --> 00:27:31.109
be brutal. You tried to follow the rules and what

520
00:27:31.130 --> 00:27:32.730
was going to happen here. And if she goes down

521
00:27:32.769 --> 00:27:34.829
in history as someone who was victimized by the state,

522
00:27:35.369 --> 00:27:37.430
that's not acceptable to me.

523
00:27:38.910 --> 00:27:39.170
Right.

524
00:27:39.690 --> 00:27:41.150
Is that hypocritical, you think, what I'm saying?

525
00:27:41.630 --> 00:27:46.200
No. Look. We're just covering facts here. Yeah.

526
00:27:46.220 --> 00:27:48.279
I mean, it's the first time it's a precedent case.

527
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:50.319
I mean, what do we do from here? I know

528
00:27:50.339 --> 00:27:51.849
they're going to have to go back to the drawing board,

529
00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:54.210
but I know some people are wondering, well, what happens now?

530
00:27:54.869 --> 00:27:58.410
So a botched execution is not going to erase her

531
00:27:58.450 --> 00:28:05.049
death sentence. And the current Supreme Court law is not

532
00:28:05.089 --> 00:28:08.180
going to stop the state from trying to do it again.

533
00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:10.619
So what it's going to do, though, is it's going

534
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.519
to open up the opportunity for a narrower fight between

535
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:16.519
over the method and the protocol and whether the next

536
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:20.789
attempt would be cruel and unusual punishment. And so that's

537
00:28:21.109 --> 00:28:24.269
kind of how they're framing this up. Now, surviving the procedure,

538
00:28:24.490 --> 00:28:26.829
like we said, is also not going to necessarily directly

539
00:28:26.890 --> 00:28:28.829
commute the sentence to life. And so I'm going to

540
00:28:28.869 --> 00:28:32.170
read here something that we pulled before we got on air.

541
00:28:32.210 --> 00:28:35.940
But Tennessee law, like the law in other death penalty states,

542
00:28:36.019 --> 00:28:38.559
treats the method as the means of carrying out a judgment,

543
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:42.119
not the judgment itself. So it's the method, not the judgment.

544
00:28:42.539 --> 00:28:46.559
So if lethal injection is later held unconstitutional or certifiably infeasible,

545
00:28:46.900 --> 00:28:49.400
the death sentence remains and the state looks to whatever

546
00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:52.700
backup the statute allows. For Pike, whose crime was in 1995,

547
00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:59.920
Tennessee still lists electrocution as an elective alternative for pre-1999 cases.

548
00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:02.440
And that was one thing that came to my attention, too,

549
00:29:02.500 --> 00:29:04.680
because when she is sentenced, they say, you know, the

550
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:06.500
electric current will go through your body until you are dead.

551
00:29:07.059 --> 00:29:10.180
And so if she was so worried about the lethal injection,

552
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:12.349
I mean, the electric chair was still on the table.

553
00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:14.700
Why weren't they fighting to just give her the chair?

554
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:17.079
If it was truly about her comfort and about not

555
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:23.710
being whatever, why didn't they argue that? I mean, I

556
00:29:23.750 --> 00:29:25.549
know they don't want her to die, but if that

557
00:29:25.589 --> 00:29:28.930
was truly just about this being, you know, the, the,

558
00:29:28.970 --> 00:29:31.329
the root cause, Oh, well, her blood clotting factor is

559
00:29:31.369 --> 00:29:31.769
a problem.

560
00:29:31.849 --> 00:29:32.029
Okay.

561
00:29:32.049 --> 00:29:33.230
Then go to the alternative method.

562
00:29:33.869 --> 00:29:37.920
Well, they're saying that now. You know, I don't know

563
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:40.440
if they brought that up before, but they're saying the

564
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:44.000
reason this didn't work is because she had that condition.

565
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:47.069
They came out and said this immediately after it didn't work,

566
00:29:47.150 --> 00:29:48.589
which makes me think they knew.

567
00:29:48.710 --> 00:29:50.630
They did. That was their appeal.

568
00:29:50.769 --> 00:29:54.430
So you could ask that same question to the state.

569
00:29:54.470 --> 00:29:56.869
I mean, this is a big freaking problem on the

570
00:29:56.910 --> 00:30:02.220
state's part, too. They why didn't they? Nobody said, you

571
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.960
know what? Lethal injection may not work on this chick.

572
00:30:05.420 --> 00:30:08.589
Nobody said that from the state level. It's not all

573
00:30:08.730 --> 00:30:11.289
up to her attorneys to bring it up. The state

574
00:30:11.490 --> 00:30:12.049
has some.

575
00:30:12.549 --> 00:30:13.589
Yeah, they've got due diligence.

576
00:30:13.609 --> 00:30:17.220
Responsibility here. I agree as well, because we don't do

577
00:30:17.299 --> 00:30:19.359
shit like that. We don't torture people.

578
00:30:19.500 --> 00:30:22.920
I agree. I agree. But I'm just saying. If the

579
00:30:23.420 --> 00:30:25.500
obviously they're just trying to spare her life. Obviously, that's

580
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:27.240
what they're trying to do with that appeal, because they

581
00:30:27.259 --> 00:30:30.750
brought this up before her execution. Then the alternative is

582
00:30:30.769 --> 00:30:32.690
still on the books of that. And she was sentenced

583
00:30:32.730 --> 00:30:34.910
to electrocution and it's still on the books. I'm just saying,

584
00:30:34.930 --> 00:30:35.970
if you want to look at it black and white,

585
00:30:36.329 --> 00:30:38.029
like on paper, it's still there.

586
00:30:38.049 --> 00:30:40.880
Right. So you could you could use that. And maybe

587
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:42.880
that's something to look at next time around.

588
00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:44.839
Maybe prisoner choice, we can try this.

589
00:30:44.859 --> 00:30:46.900
Why wasn't it looked at the first time around? I

590
00:30:46.900 --> 00:30:47.220
don't know.

591
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:48.880
I'm curious if they'll be like, well, maybe we'll do

592
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:50.829
prisoner's choice here. You can either have the electric chair

593
00:30:50.890 --> 00:30:52.410
or you can try this with your blood clotting.

594
00:30:52.430 --> 00:30:54.309
I don't think they're going to do lethal injection with

595
00:30:54.349 --> 00:30:56.549
her again. I don't see that.

596
00:30:57.369 --> 00:30:58.549
I don't think she's going to come out of this

597
00:30:58.589 --> 00:31:00.390
for that to even be a– I think she's about

598
00:31:00.410 --> 00:31:02.220
to be a vegetable and on the state's dime and

599
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:03.900
have to take care of her. I don't understand why

600
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:06.400
they did DNR-type stuff here. I mean, why they had

601
00:31:06.460 --> 00:31:09.920
a resuscitation attempt on this either. I don't understand that.

602
00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:10.339
They didn't.

603
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:11.839
They brought her to the hospital.

604
00:31:12.339 --> 00:31:14.359
Well, they brought her to the hospital. You have to, Kelly.

605
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.420
You can't. You just have to. It's kind of like

606
00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:21.319
giving people heart monitors and stuff when they're in prison

607
00:31:21.619 --> 00:31:22.900
that are sentenced to death.

608
00:31:22.980 --> 00:31:23.869
I get that.

609
00:31:24.529 --> 00:31:26.309
They have to die a specific way.

610
00:31:26.710 --> 00:31:28.210
I get that. But what I'm saying is you've been

611
00:31:28.230 --> 00:31:31.549
sentenced to death. Then bring her to the hospital and

612
00:31:31.569 --> 00:31:33.950
let her lay on the gurney. And then if she

613
00:31:34.089 --> 00:31:36.230
looks like she's suffering, then give her some more in

614
00:31:36.259 --> 00:31:38.740
the hospital. Do something. The doctors are there for a reason.

615
00:31:38.779 --> 00:31:41.599
But now they're... keeping her alive and attempting to save

616
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:43.220
her life, and I don't get that. I really don't.

617
00:31:43.240 --> 00:31:44.400
Well, I can actually answer that question.

618
00:31:44.420 --> 00:31:44.980
All right, go for it.

619
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:50.680
Because the Supreme Court law in Tennessee states that you

620
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:54.920
can only administer a lethal dose of that kind of

621
00:31:54.980 --> 00:31:56.000
drug twice.

622
00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:01.410
Yeah, but the state, not medical intervention. So, I'm just saying.

623
00:32:01.450 --> 00:32:04.029
A medical person doesn't have the authority to kill her.

624
00:32:04.109 --> 00:32:06.309
I'm just saying if it was in the protocol. No,

625
00:32:06.470 --> 00:32:08.160
if it was in the protocol. I'm talking about, I

626
00:32:08.500 --> 00:32:09.640
don't understand why you would try to.

627
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:10.660
Save her life. Because you can only do it twice.

628
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:13.299
I know, I'm talking about rewriting the damn law. That

629
00:32:13.460 --> 00:32:16.980
if it's not working in the setting at the facility,

630
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:18.500
I don't think we should then take you to the

631
00:32:18.539 --> 00:32:20.829
hospital and try to save you. I think that's dumb.

632
00:32:20.869 --> 00:32:23.869
I think it's counterintuitive here. What are we going to do?

633
00:32:23.910 --> 00:32:26.390
Bring her back just to do it again? That's cruel

634
00:32:26.430 --> 00:32:27.410
and unusual in my opinion.

635
00:32:27.930 --> 00:32:31.009
They look at it as and I'm not saying I

636
00:32:31.029 --> 00:32:33.490
agree or disagree, but they look at it as she

637
00:32:34.329 --> 00:32:37.380
was made to suffer. And she was probably, I mean,

638
00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:39.380
I would imagine she was suffering during that point.

639
00:32:39.619 --> 00:32:40.640
I don't, she was snoring.

640
00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:44.759
Stabilizing her. Well, Kelly. Okay.

641
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:46.140
I really don't. That's fine.

642
00:32:46.180 --> 00:32:46.880
That's your opinion.

643
00:32:46.900 --> 00:32:47.980
That's my opinion, Jim.

644
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.720
How many times have you been under with that? Never.

645
00:32:50.980 --> 00:32:52.240
So we don't, I don't know.

646
00:32:52.299 --> 00:32:55.509
What did they give you whenever you, uh, well, when

647
00:32:55.549 --> 00:32:58.240
you get wisdom teeth taken out, what did they give you? Uh,

648
00:32:59.589 --> 00:33:03.069
I'd be curious to know. All right. So then comes

649
00:33:03.289 --> 00:33:08.380
up the question of, OK, well, then what about double jeopardy? Because,

650
00:33:09.259 --> 00:33:12.400
you know, you can't they've already tried to execute or

651
00:33:12.500 --> 00:33:16.140
it didn't work. So we can't go do that again.

652
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:16.240
Well.

653
00:33:17.269 --> 00:33:20.150
There's a case in the Willie Francis case, which is

654
00:33:20.190 --> 00:33:23.049
in Louisiana. Jim covered this one on on Bloody Angola,

655
00:33:23.109 --> 00:33:25.970
but he was 17 and he survived the electric chair,

656
00:33:26.029 --> 00:33:29.250
not because he withstood the electricity, but because of a

657
00:33:29.289 --> 00:33:32.539
malfunction in the chair. So the courts then held on

658
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:35.079
a five to four ruling that the second attempt. was

659
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:38.630
neither double jeopardy nor cruel and unusual punishment. Because the

660
00:33:38.690 --> 00:33:41.509
argument was basically, well, we put him to death. He

661
00:33:41.529 --> 00:33:43.230
didn't die. What do we do? We let him walk

662
00:33:43.269 --> 00:33:44.730
or do we do it again? Or would that be

663
00:33:44.750 --> 00:33:48.130
the double jeopardy? And so Justice Reed's opinion treated the

664
00:33:48.170 --> 00:33:51.460
failure as an accident in carrying out one sentence, not

665
00:33:51.500 --> 00:33:54.920
a second punishment. When a quote unquote accident with no

666
00:33:54.980 --> 00:33:59.420
suggestions of malevolence prevents the consummation of a sentence due

667
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:02.680
to process, it does not stop the state from finishing it.

668
00:34:03.059 --> 00:34:05.099
And you know what? What I just said about in

669
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:08.780
the hospital, finishing it, that's kind of what that lends

670
00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:11.880
itself to. But it's in a more clinical setting with

671
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.969
more supervision, with more eyes and more things. So that's

672
00:34:16.010 --> 00:34:18.789
still the baseline. A failed lethal injection is not legally

673
00:34:18.829 --> 00:34:22.050
the same as an acquittal or a completed sentence. Pike's

674
00:34:22.110 --> 00:34:25.269
lawyers can argue the facts are worse than Frances because

675
00:34:25.309 --> 00:34:28.820
the drugs were actually injected and she remained conscious and

676
00:34:29.429 --> 00:34:34.260
This is an apparent pain. The burning, I guess. People

677
00:34:34.300 --> 00:34:37.860
feel that in regular procedures. I have a blown vein

678
00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.340
in the last surgery I had. Do I have a

679
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:43.659
constitutional argument to say that I was tortured by my doctor? No.

680
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:48.840
It just happened. It was an accident. They blew a

681
00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:51.280
vein in my left hand. They restuck my right hand.

682
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:54.070
They blew the vein in my right hand. Then they

683
00:34:54.110 --> 00:34:56.730
got another one. And then I finally went out. But

684
00:34:56.769 --> 00:34:59.940
I was half drunk with the medicine. before they got

685
00:34:59.980 --> 00:35:03.400
me out. So the drugs were injected. She was in

686
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:05.480
apparent pain, this says. The curtain was closed and then

687
00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:08.719
the protocol had no next step. But they're arguing against

688
00:35:08.780 --> 00:35:13.030
a precedent that's never been overruled. So one of the

689
00:35:13.070 --> 00:35:16.849
justices' concurrence is the crack in that wall. He agreed

690
00:35:16.889 --> 00:35:20.670
that the first failure was accidental and unforeseeable, but then

691
00:35:20.690 --> 00:35:25.079
wrote that repeated unsuccessful attempts could become a different constitutional problem.

692
00:35:25.219 --> 00:35:28.760
One botched execution is generally not enough, but a pattern

693
00:35:28.820 --> 00:35:32.590
can be. So I would say that they needed a

694
00:35:32.619 --> 00:35:36.010
different drug as the backup. That's why the three-drug system

695
00:35:36.050 --> 00:35:39.849
sounds better than the one drug. But the Eighth Amendment

696
00:35:39.869 --> 00:35:41.750
test is hard to win because the court has never

697
00:35:41.789 --> 00:35:45.510
struck down a state's chosen execution procedure under the Eighth Amendment.

698
00:35:45.550 --> 00:35:47.929
And to win, the prisoner has to show two things.

699
00:35:48.289 --> 00:35:50.829
that number one, the method presents a substantial risk of

700
00:35:50.889 --> 00:35:54.429
severe pain, sure or very likely is the quote, to

701
00:35:54.530 --> 00:36:01.679
cause serious illness and needless suffering and an objectively intolerable risk.

702
00:36:01.940 --> 00:36:05.619
So there is a feasible, readily implemented alternative that would

703
00:36:05.659 --> 00:36:09.079
significantly reduce that risk, which the state has refused without

704
00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:14.469
a legitimate penological reason. So that brings up what we're

705
00:36:14.489 --> 00:36:17.090
talking about here that the state did have another method,

706
00:36:17.190 --> 00:36:20.250
but you couldn't inject her and it halfway work and

707
00:36:20.269 --> 00:36:21.130
then go electrocute her.

708
00:36:21.329 --> 00:36:26.269
Right. I mean, there has to be a similarly timeframe. Yeah.

709
00:36:26.670 --> 00:36:29.880
Before you move on to another method like that. I mean,

710
00:36:29.889 --> 00:36:32.860
you can't do it the same night. Right. But that

711
00:36:32.900 --> 00:36:35.539
being said, if she's incapacitated, I don't know how they'd

712
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:39.079
electrocute her if she's incapacitated to the point that.

713
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:40.820
And that sounds brutal to do both.

714
00:36:42.500 --> 00:36:43.460
What do you do, Kelly?

715
00:36:44.030 --> 00:36:45.510
I know that's what we're going to have to figure

716
00:36:45.550 --> 00:36:47.389
out here, but I think a different drug would have

717
00:36:47.409 --> 00:36:48.170
been the answer here.

718
00:36:48.269 --> 00:36:54.320
I think the three-drug protocol, maybe. Her condition is so unique.

719
00:36:55.820 --> 00:37:01.199
I mean, if it was indeed primarily her condition that

720
00:37:01.260 --> 00:37:04.239
caused this, three drugs wouldn't have made a difference.

721
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.559
Did she have a doctor's diagnosis or did they just

722
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:06.960
say that?

723
00:37:06.980 --> 00:37:10.059
No, she has a legit diagnosis from what I read.

724
00:37:10.460 --> 00:37:12.889
Okay. That would be another thing, too. Was it a

725
00:37:12.929 --> 00:37:17.880
legit diagnosis? concern um or not so a completed failure

726
00:37:18.219 --> 00:37:21.940
is useful uh useful evidence before september 30th pike's team

727
00:37:21.980 --> 00:37:27.409
was predicting difficult veins blown veins degraded penobarbital and no

728
00:37:27.570 --> 00:37:31.670
medical rescue afterward they can point to what witnesses saw

729
00:37:31.710 --> 00:37:34.630
the arm pain she described as about to burst and

730
00:37:34.889 --> 00:37:40.150
continued consciousness, snoring after both syringes, body movement, and a

731
00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:42.409
closed curtain. I don't agree with the body movement because

732
00:37:42.449 --> 00:37:46.119
people that have had successful executions still move. They snore,

733
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:48.739
they jerk a little bit, they'll gasp, and then they die.

734
00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:54.139
So that is stronger than a risk prediction. It still

735
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:56.960
has to clear the alternative method requirement. The courts have

736
00:37:56.980 --> 00:38:00.159
been reluctant to treat isolated malfunctions as proof the method

737
00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:03.380
itself is unconstitutional. And I'd agree with that because we

738
00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:09.300
have so many Successful executions, you know, with this drug used.

739
00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:14.110
Tennessee called off Tony, I think this is Caruthers. I

740
00:38:14.110 --> 00:38:16.530
haven't looked it up, but Tony Caruthers' execution, which is

741
00:38:16.570 --> 00:38:19.230
in May of 26, because staff could not find a vein.

742
00:38:19.750 --> 00:38:22.269
Two failures in five months is the kind of record

743
00:38:22.329 --> 00:38:25.349
lawyers use to argue that risk was no longer accidental.

744
00:38:26.670 --> 00:38:28.429
But I would say, what are the probability of not

745
00:38:28.469 --> 00:38:32.309
having good veins if you have a criminal... You know,

746
00:38:32.329 --> 00:38:34.130
there's lots of things to look at here. If you

747
00:38:34.150 --> 00:38:37.610
have a large criminal, like when I was doing assessments

748
00:38:37.659 --> 00:38:39.920
on inmates when I worked in prison and you asked,

749
00:38:40.139 --> 00:38:42.619
do you have drug use? An exorbitant amount of them

750
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:45.980
said yes. So if we're going to argue that their

751
00:38:46.019 --> 00:38:49.980
veins are such a large issue, then lethal injection is

752
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:52.159
going to have to be, I mean, if you wanted

753
00:38:52.179 --> 00:38:53.840
to be just, you know, one way or the other.

754
00:38:54.369 --> 00:38:56.690
If we're going to say that your veins are the end-all, be-all...

755
00:38:56.730 --> 00:38:57.449
You just.

756
00:38:57.269 --> 00:38:59.409
Go to a different method. I don't know why the

757
00:38:59.650 --> 00:39:03.989
hypoxia method is not used everywhere. Some people say that

758
00:39:04.780 --> 00:39:10.800
that's too painful or whatever. But, I mean, you don't

759
00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:12.039
have to worry about veins then.

760
00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:15.900
Yeah. A bullet's cheap, too. I know that's ugly, but

761
00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:19.369
it's effective. Look at all the murder victims around the world.

762
00:39:20.550 --> 00:39:24.360
Bullets work. So... Then again, it brings up, you know,

763
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:25.179
is that brutal or not?

764
00:39:26.989 --> 00:39:27.219
You know?

765
00:39:30.050 --> 00:39:33.289
So there's an argument both ways here, basically. If the

766
00:39:33.329 --> 00:39:37.590
backup didn't work, everyone's saying these were two majorly deadly

767
00:39:37.909 --> 00:39:39.760
doses that were given to this woman, and then that

768
00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:41.860
didn't work, no one could have predicted that this would

769
00:39:41.900 --> 00:39:45.380
be the case. They can say they predicted blood clotting problems.

770
00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:49.230
They could argue that. But for two people, majorly deadly

771
00:39:49.409 --> 00:39:52.510
lethal doses to be given and that not work, I

772
00:39:52.530 --> 00:39:54.909
would say arguably no one predicted that and that's proof

773
00:39:54.969 --> 00:39:57.349
because of the protocol. If the first one didn't work,

774
00:39:57.449 --> 00:39:59.989
push the second one. So the state will say it

775
00:40:00.010 --> 00:40:02.380
stopped where the law told it to stop. Pike's lawyers

776
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:05.199
will say that if a method can leave someone alive

777
00:40:05.260 --> 00:40:07.380
in pain and with a heartbeat, and then there's no

778
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:12.389
lawful next step, that's not a constitutional method of, of execution.

779
00:40:12.829 --> 00:40:15.010
And they've already sought the orders for life-saving care and

780
00:40:15.030 --> 00:40:17.769
to block another attempt. So whether the current warrant is

781
00:40:17.829 --> 00:40:20.510
spent and whether a new warrant is required, that's going

782
00:40:20.530 --> 00:40:23.269
to be litigated under the Tennessee procedure as well as

783
00:40:23.289 --> 00:40:25.320
the federal constitution.

784
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:27.940
Yeah. And there's, there's going to be a lot come

785
00:40:28.019 --> 00:40:30.579
out of this. They're going to check and there will

786
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:34.510
be a report on whether the, drugs were weaker than

787
00:40:34.570 --> 00:40:37.789
they should have been for some reason, the age of them,

788
00:40:38.210 --> 00:40:39.489
you know, they sort of things.

789
00:40:39.510 --> 00:40:41.650
And they're going to run toxicology on her too. I'm

790
00:40:41.909 --> 00:40:43.130
certain to see what.

791
00:40:43.030 --> 00:40:44.969
They're going to, they're going to know exactly what happened.

792
00:40:45.170 --> 00:40:47.909
They'll be, they'll be able to figure out exactly what

793
00:40:47.949 --> 00:40:50.349
happened and they'll come out with that, you know, and

794
00:40:50.369 --> 00:40:54.489
they'll release it. And so we'll have more answers at

795
00:40:54.530 --> 00:40:57.179
that point. It's just hard to say whether it was

796
00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:01.579
just the veins and, and you know, then there'll be

797
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:04.079
the question of what, If they knew about that ahead

798
00:41:04.110 --> 00:41:06.489
of time, why didn't they look into something else at

799
00:41:06.550 --> 00:41:07.030
that point?

800
00:41:07.230 --> 00:41:08.869
Yeah, because it seems like there's an easy fix. If

801
00:41:08.909 --> 00:41:11.110
you were just a regular citizen, you would have just

802
00:41:11.150 --> 00:41:14.230
given the preemptive blood thinner to make sure that it

803
00:41:14.250 --> 00:41:14.730
didn't clot.

804
00:41:15.869 --> 00:41:19.449
Yeah. Well, I don't think you're focusing on that clotting.

805
00:41:19.489 --> 00:41:22.030
It's not just the clotting. It's the blowing out of

806
00:41:22.070 --> 00:41:22.449
the veins.

807
00:41:22.469 --> 00:41:24.090
Well, I would think it blew out because of the clot.

808
00:41:24.130 --> 00:41:27.090
That's why I'm saying that. Like if the vein got

809
00:41:27.110 --> 00:41:27.929
backed up with the blood.

810
00:41:27.949 --> 00:41:30.449
You could also miss the vein there. Completely. If your

811
00:41:30.489 --> 00:41:32.530
veins are too small, you can kind of get it

812
00:41:32.570 --> 00:41:32.920
half in.

813
00:41:32.949 --> 00:41:34.750
That's why you should have to have a back of line.

814
00:41:34.769 --> 00:41:38.389
Your veins could roll. Yeah. There could have been all

815
00:41:38.429 --> 00:41:41.929
kinds of reasons. So I'm not apt to think the

816
00:41:42.010 --> 00:41:45.809
clotting was the issue necessarily here. It sounds to me

817
00:41:45.869 --> 00:41:49.889
like the veins were just small and they were literally

818
00:41:49.989 --> 00:41:50.889
blowing the vein.

819
00:41:50.909 --> 00:41:54.070
I mean, it could be. None of us know. So

820
00:41:54.489 --> 00:41:56.630
I will be interested. I feel like, though, the unfortunate

821
00:41:56.650 --> 00:41:58.570
part is it's going to take a long time probably

822
00:41:58.590 --> 00:42:03.369
to get these answers. Um, I think they will know obviously,

823
00:42:03.469 --> 00:42:05.010
but I think to be released to us is going

824
00:42:05.030 --> 00:42:06.909
to take a long time because they've got to do

825
00:42:06.949 --> 00:42:09.769
an incident action plan here and review this and see

826
00:42:09.809 --> 00:42:14.070
how it went down. But easy things here would have been,

827
00:42:14.090 --> 00:42:17.110
in my opinion, backup plan, which would have been the

828
00:42:17.409 --> 00:42:20.289
secondary drug push, maybe a secondary line. I don't even

829
00:42:20.309 --> 00:42:23.159
know if they, I've always heard there's two lines and

830
00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:26.760
one in each arm. Um, I've never witnessed an execution, um,

831
00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:29.199
in the room. So I can't, but I know I've

832
00:42:29.219 --> 00:42:33.070
watched practice when they practice beforehand before they do it.

833
00:42:33.300 --> 00:42:38.079
And it was two lines. So this might be a

834
00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:40.960
totality of circumstance that a lot of things went wrong too.

835
00:42:41.380 --> 00:42:44.159
It could be weakened drugs. So like what I'm saying

836
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:47.409
is the probability of this happening again is very low.

837
00:42:50.090 --> 00:42:54.510
This is one time out of, you know, however many

838
00:42:54.530 --> 00:42:55.630
executions we've had to date.

839
00:42:56.929 --> 00:42:58.909
Well, I mean, they've had this happen before. Yeah.

840
00:42:58.969 --> 00:43:02.139
But like the other guy, the other guy in Tennessee,

841
00:43:02.219 --> 00:43:04.820
you're saying, yeah, the other, the other guy, they couldn't

842
00:43:04.860 --> 00:43:06.900
get the vein. So they called it off. So it

843
00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:10.159
sounds like they got the vein or they thought they did.

844
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:10.340
Yeah.

845
00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:12.840
Or they thought that however you want to look at it.

846
00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:18.230
Um, well, it'd be interesting to see what follows up

847
00:43:18.269 --> 00:43:20.389
with this, what her condition is currently.

848
00:43:20.409 --> 00:43:24.139
Um, Yeah, nothing's been released at the point that we

849
00:43:24.179 --> 00:43:26.909
are recording this. Nothing. She's still in the hospital at

850
00:43:26.929 --> 00:43:27.409
the time that.

851
00:43:27.329 --> 00:43:28.409
We're recording this. Right.

852
00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:30.920
So let us know your thoughts, guys. We'd love to

853
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:32.300
hear from you. We'd love to hear your opinions. You

854
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:33.800
can tell us how horrible we are.

855
00:43:34.099 --> 00:43:35.960
Them nurses are going to tear KJ up.

856
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:36.280
That's fine.

857
00:43:36.460 --> 00:43:37.079
I can't wait.

858
00:43:37.139 --> 00:43:38.300
That's fine. I'm here for it.

859
00:43:38.500 --> 00:43:39.400
Put it in the comments.

860
00:43:39.420 --> 00:43:40.280
Put it in.

861
00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:43.360
The comments, nurses. I know y'all are like, what? What

862
00:43:43.420 --> 00:43:45.360
is this chick talking about?

863
00:43:45.380 --> 00:43:50.079
Hey, go for it. That's fine. I mean, I just

864
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:52.280
know they blew veins in both of my hands. It

865
00:43:52.300 --> 00:43:54.420
hurt like an MF-er. I was half drunk because they

866
00:43:54.460 --> 00:43:57.050
were using propofol. And then they finally got it after

867
00:43:57.090 --> 00:43:59.360
they stuck me a third time. And I don't think

868
00:43:59.449 --> 00:44:01.409
I had an argument at that point for cruel and

869
00:44:01.429 --> 00:44:03.510
unusual punishment. I think it just was what it was.

870
00:44:03.530 --> 00:44:06.630
I don't know. I mean, someone hurt me. I've had

871
00:44:06.670 --> 00:44:08.230
a vein blown out before.

872
00:44:08.590 --> 00:44:10.349
Did they already push the drug, though, and you're half drunk?

873
00:44:10.590 --> 00:44:13.389
No, they couldn't even get my vein and they were

874
00:44:13.570 --> 00:44:15.929
killing me. And I almost got in a fight with it.

875
00:44:15.929 --> 00:44:19.750
It was a male nurse, incidentally, a male nurse. And

876
00:44:20.030 --> 00:44:21.750
me and him, I almost come to blows. And I

877
00:44:21.809 --> 00:44:24.050
told him, you stick me one more time and it's

878
00:44:24.070 --> 00:44:26.059
going to be on with me and you. And this

879
00:44:26.139 --> 00:44:27.940
other nurse comes over there and she was able to

880
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:30.619
do it in two seconds. And I'm like, this guy

881
00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:33.239
kept trying. He stuck me like six times in the

882
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:36.199
same place. What are you doing? He said, your vein

883
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:40.550
keeps rolling. I'm like, well, get somebody else. Are you

884
00:44:40.690 --> 00:44:43.329
training right now? What are you doing? Because it felt

885
00:44:43.409 --> 00:44:46.130
like someone was cutting my arm off. It was that bad.

886
00:44:46.210 --> 00:44:48.269
Well, I'll tell you. Some of the drug got in,

887
00:44:48.369 --> 00:44:50.630
and then the rest went into the muscle. It burned really,

888
00:44:50.650 --> 00:44:52.719
really bad. It hurt. They did it again in the

889
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:56.039
other hand. I genuinely was intoxicated at that point. They

890
00:44:56.059 --> 00:44:58.079
can't stop. I mean, they could have, I guess, but

891
00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:00.139
like— In terms of that being what happened here in

892
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:02.480
the execution, I mean, shit, you got to go forward

893
00:45:02.500 --> 00:45:05.570
with it. I mean, some of the drugs are already

894
00:45:05.610 --> 00:45:07.710
in there. You can't stop giving a deadly drug.

895
00:45:07.809 --> 00:45:09.909
And they did. They did it a second time. And

896
00:45:09.929 --> 00:45:12.849
they still botched it. Or whatever happened.

897
00:45:12.869 --> 00:45:13.449
Whatever happened.

898
00:45:13.730 --> 00:45:17.730
Yeah. I think, honestly, they said it was five milligrams per.

899
00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:20.500
So I think what happened was they stuck her the

900
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:24.400
first time. And, you know, it just blew her vein out.

901
00:45:24.420 --> 00:45:27.000
And she only got like a milligram of the five.

902
00:45:27.500 --> 00:45:29.980
The five is the lethal dose. You get three, it's

903
00:45:30.019 --> 00:45:32.360
not going to kill you. So then they stuck her

904
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:34.280
the second time and the same thing happened. And she

905
00:45:34.340 --> 00:45:37.469
only got another gram and the rest did not go

906
00:45:37.530 --> 00:45:42.530
in her vein. And I think that's probably what happened. That's,

907
00:45:43.289 --> 00:45:45.949
you know, just reading what I'm reading. Yeah.

908
00:45:46.170 --> 00:45:48.429
So thank you for tuning in. And the answer is

909
00:45:48.469 --> 00:45:49.760
we don't know what the hell happened.

910
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:50.920
Yeah.

911
00:45:51.489 --> 00:45:51.949
We have.

912
00:45:52.010 --> 00:45:52.679
We'll find out.

913
00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:54.219
We're trying to figure it out. But if you know,

914
00:45:54.260 --> 00:45:55.619
let us know. If you were there, we'd like to

915
00:45:55.639 --> 00:45:56.010
hear from you.

916
00:45:57.829 --> 00:45:58.550
That was weird.

917
00:45:59.349 --> 00:46:01.130
Well, no, people are speaking out. I mean, shit.

918
00:46:01.650 --> 00:46:03.980
All right. Until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.

919
00:46:04.059 --> 00:46:04.860
And I'm Kelly Jennings.