Part Two | Hung Jury: The Lindsey Clancy Case

0:06 Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell stories of real crimes with real victims, whose cases are so shocking that many are left wondering, how is this even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement, corrections, and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator, dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so evil, many feel they are unspeakable. Warning. Unspeakable is intended for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Okay, Jay, you're back with another episode of Unspeakable. How's it going this week?

1:02 I know you've been waiting for part two of this whole Clancy saga, and I've got a bunch for you today. But before I start, I do have some shout outs, and I want to say hello all the way in Dauphin Island, Alabama to Emily Vaughn. What's going on, Emily? You joined my crime family, and I'm so excited. So I'm waving to you on the camera. Hey, girl, how are you? Thank you so much. I appreciate all of your support, everybody, including this is Ray Weems in Spokane Valley, Washington. Hey, how's it going over there? I hope that you're having a wonderful week. Tell all your friends that I'm waving at you and I'm giving you your shout out. And I appreciate your support as well. And then last but certainly not least, we're just going to go right down the road to Hammond, Louisiana, where Tina Wagner is. What is going on, Tina? How are you doing over in them parts? Got a lot of family over there. We probably have some of the same, know some of the same people. So I'm waving to you. Thank you so much for supporting me. And of course, I'll have more shout outs in the upcoming episodes. If I didn't get to you, hang in there. If you want your shout out, remember, that's for the crime family level. There's multiple levels. Make sure you get the right the right level. Now, a couple of announcements. I don't want you to forget, I will be at Fall Fest right here in Denham Springs, Louisiana.

2:13 It's October the 3rd. I'll have a booth. I'll have merch. I'll sign whatever you want me to sign. We could take a picture. It's going to be wonderful. And then I also want to remind you that Jimothy and I, producer Jimothy and I have another show. It's called Crime Wire Weekly. And if you're on Patreon, you've been seeing that already. We post those videos for you, but you can also go follow that show on any of your listening platforms. follow and it's going to have more of our up to date crime true crime that's happening each week. And we talk about that and we have a good time. Let's also talk about the fact that quarterly gifts are about to be mailed out as the time that you're hearing this. And I please I'm begging you, please, please, please, if you are in my crime family, for sure. Make sure that your address on patreon.com is up to date because I once I mail out your item, it's going to go to whatever address you have on file, it's pretty simple to change it, you just log in, you click settings, you click account, and then it says edit address, and you just put in the updated address. Before I go into the like main intro of this episode, I want to remind everybody of something, okay? While this podcast is going to cover horrific things, right, and we're going to talk about difficult topics, I want us all to remember that we're all friends here. Everybody that listens to this show has a vested interest in these cases and appreciates hearing the story. So I want to make sure that y'all know that we're not all going to agree.

3:39 We're all going to be a totality of our circumstances and our experiences. And so we can all listen to the same thing, watch the same thing and come out with different ideas about what happened. That's okay. It is okay for us to disagree. What's not okay is is for us to not hear all the information, to absorb everything, to see what all is out there in these cases, and then we can all come to our own opinions. But I am not going to be in the business of avoidance just because it makes people uncomfortable. That's not me. Let's talk about these cases and let's enjoy each other's company in the process. So that said, this is part two of the Lindsay Clancy saga. So if you have not listened to part one, Spoiler alert, I'm about to jump into the middle of it, so go back and listen now. But where we left off last week was with the Clancy family having grown from a family of two to now a family of five. And by 2022...

4:33 Patrick and Lindsay were well into the what I like to call hurricane years of raising their young children. People are busy with work and family and schedules. And Lindsay was just having a really hard time adjusting to her role as a mother of three children. Her mood was even more expressive because she had started to really vocalize. She was struggling emotionally and she felt like she was just like in this mental state that just wasn't her. exhaustion had also become one of her most pressing issues, I would argue, because she just could not sleep. Her mind would continue to roll and she would worry even when the house was quiet and everybody was in bed and asleep. This crippling anxiety would creep into her mind and she would worry constantly that something was going to happen to her children. But why she was feeling this So intensely, she just didn't know. She couldn't put her finger on it. And before she knew it, the sun was coming up, and she hadn't had a wink of sleep before the next day was right back in her face. Callan, the youngest of the three... He'd be crying for milk, but he wasn't wanting to take a bottle. He was not transitioning easily from the breast to the bottle. And then the older two are running around just like kids do.

5:55 Nothing wrong with it. Just being wild, crazy little ones. And although Lindsay was experiencing distress more than usual, she still kept up appearances on Facebook, on social media. She was consistently posting wonderful, loving photos of her family together. There'd be pictures of Lindsay cuddling up with her babies on the back patio of the house, big smiles, family time together. And every photo showed the image of a family that loves one another and wants to be around one another. She was documenting the first day of preschool and vacations and everything that we as a society are used to seeing of a committed and happy family in today's social media world. And the same month that Callan had been born, Lindsay was becoming more and more frustrated with two-year-old Dawson. And she loved her little baby, but dang, he was just really hard for her in terms of behavior.

7:00 I want to be clear, though, he was not bad by any means. He wasn't a bad kid. He was little. He was a two-year-old. He was just a strong-willed little fella. He got off task really easily. And venting, as well as looking for help online with this, Lindsay posted something like a question in an online group on May the 5th. Now, this group was called Attachment Parenting for Littles. And this is what her post read. And I'm going to read it to you word for word. I'm not ad-libbing anything. She wrote on May the 5th. Hello, lovely parents. I'm looking for some advice, solidarity, ideas, something, anything. Anything. I am truly finding my 19-month-old to be the most difficult human I have ever encountered. I mean that with all of the love in my heart, but I honestly cannot make it through a day without getting so frustrated with him.

7:59 He is not my first child, so no, not to compare because I know that every child is different, but just for background, this is not my first rodeo. Every single day. thing with him is a battle. And it has been this way for a while since he was maybe eight months old. I really try to pick my battles and only do what's completely necessary. But I mean everything, getting out of his crib in the morning and going downstairs, changing his diaper, getting him dressed, getting him in his seat to eat. getting him in the car seat, getting him out of the car seat, putting on his jacket and shoes to go outside, having him come inside when it's time, going to sleep for his nap and at night.

8:41 He fights me every step of the way with all of these very normal daily activities. It constantly feels like I have to force him to do the things or to do these things, which feels so wrong, but he's always fighting me and crying about doing these very normal things. So people did respond because this was a parenting group and people were giving their advice. And I'm not sure exactly what this person had responded and said, honestly, but Lindsay did respond to that woman's suggestion. And she wrote, quote, I was so against it as well. With my first, we never did any sleep training at all. And she didn't sleep through the night even or ever until 15 months.

9:29 And even after that, it was still hit or miss. When my second started waking up every 45 minutes the entire night when he was three and a half months old, I knew we needed to help him sleep better because we couldn't survive like that. We didn't start sleep training until four and a half months, but it honestly was not as bad as I thought it would be at all. Before training, he would either fall asleep nursing or rocking, so part of the sleep training was to get him to fall asleep in his crib. I did this by putting him in his crib and staying right with him, talking to him, to him, rubbing his back, et cetera, until he fell asleep. And then she did say a little bit more talking about how he cried the first time, but it did get better. So people, of course, had their own suggestions and Lindsay was responding. But those are her own words, and you can tell. You can tell in the way she worded this. Lindsay was frustrated, but she was still actively trying to fix something somewhere. Dawson was just a handful. Now, friends would stop by, ones such as Andrea Hennigan, who had worked with Lindsay for nearly seven years at the hospital. So they had been friends for a while, and Andrea was excited to see the new baby and She spent nearly two hours soaking in all of little Callan's newness and his cuddles. And she smiled, looking him over and looking at his little features, his tiny toes and his really chubby cheeks. He was just so small and warm and delicate. And Lindsay was

11:00 happy to have somebody come over and to talk. While they were having their interactions, Andre didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. And Their visit was just wonderful. It was good to see her. She was so happy for the Clancy's new addition, but she was also excited for whenever her friend was going to be returning back to work so they could get back to their typical shenanigans on that birthing unit in the night shift. So two months later... Baby Callan obviously is now two months old. So he's still a new fella and he's adjusting to this world. Basically eat, sleep, poop, cry. You know, he was busy. He was doing all the baby things, respectfully that is, because he was a good little baby and he was doing everything that he was supposed to be doing.

11:46 So realizing that more help may be a good thing Patrick and Lindsay had a discussion and they agreed, you know, getting a nanny might be something that would really help. And this would free Lindsay up to go back to work part time. But it would also give her some me time, if anything, time to get out by herself, maybe to go walk or or to exercise or whatever it is that she could do to kind of relax and get back in the groove. So they put an ad in on Facebook in July. They were looking for someone part-time and a woman by the name of Elaine Rossi answered that request or that ad. So they liked what they saw initially and they invited her over to the home and they wanted to interview her in person.

12:33 They wanted her to get to meet the children and they could kind of talk and evaluate and discuss the expectations. So when Elaine arrived, the Clancy's noticed that she was older than they were and her calm but experienced nature was something that made them kind of like her from the jump. She had really pretty black hair. It was just past her shoulders and she would curl it in these big barrel curls, really nicely done. She had bangs that would swoop down just above one eye, a very strong jaw, these kind greenish brown eyes. And she wasn't, new to rearing children either. This was not her first rodeo either. She immediately took to the Clancy children too in that meeting. So the kids were playing a little bit outside. So they sat down and they had a discussion about expectations and pay. And once both sides agreed that this would be a good fit for everybody, the plan was simple. Lindsay would be going back to work part-time in October and Callan would was really going to be Elaine's main job whenever she was coming over. So Cora and Dawson were going to be in daycare at that Learning Sprouts, if you remember that from first episode.

13:52 So Elaine would be working Monday, Tuesdays, and Thursdays from about 8.30 to 1 p.m. Now, Miss Elaine would very quickly be lovingly known as Laney. And so the kids would call her that. And then eventually Patrick and Lindsay, and Patrick went by Pat, so you might hear me call them both. But Pat and Lindsay, too, would eventually just start referring to her as Laney. And Elaine was really happy with this family as her employers. She thought that Lindsay was a wonderful mother, and it was clear to her that she cared very deeply for their children. She was an invested mom in their lives. So the other thing that she liked about Lindsay was that she wouldn't just jump up and dump the kids on Laney as soon as she arrived in the mornings. That's not how it went. Lindsay had a notebook that she kept on the counter in the kitchen, and that was their communication method. So both women would kind of like write notes back and forth in that notebook to make sure that they kept up with everything and their comments to one another. Whenever Laney would arrive... it was kind of common that Lindsay would be downstairs in the basement and she would be working out already. So when Lainey would come in in the morning, she could just grab the notebook, check what was written, get a grasp of the day and what was needed of her. And then if Lindsay wasn't there or they were in different parts of the house or whatever, Lindsay would also text Lainey any information

15:24 that she needed to remind her of. So things like, please chop up the veggies into small bites for the kids. Callan needs to be awakened at 9.45 a.m. for his next bottle, but he's been struggling and fussy. Things like that were really what the communication was about in the notebook. Now, Pat was still elbow deep in his work, but he was noticing how his wife was still struggling. She was still not quite herself and he loved her. So he wanted to help her in any way that he could. But here's the thing. Patrick was not a mental health expert. And his thoughts were that maybe she needed to reach out and seek help of someone that was more qualified to guide her professionally through all of her emotional issues that she was feeling. Callan had been born back in May.

16:18 And so everyone expected that by October, Lindsay would be back to herself and and able to just jump back into work as they had planned so far. And while this is not a science podcast, I acknowledge that, it is important, I think, to touch on what does a four to five month postpartum woman deal with physiologically, because there's a lot going on dependent on how your baby is being tended to. So while making a baby is arguably relatively easy, Even an idiot can do it, right? Insert right here all the single mom or divorced mom comments. I'm giggling because this is your moment, right? You're welcome.

17:00 It's easy to make a baby. It's hard to raise one, especially all the single mamas out there. I'm kidding. Understanding the complexities of postpartum care and effects is more than I would think that the average man is probably keeping up with on his daily readings after their wife or whatever has a kid. And Patrick Clancy was no different. But to humor those who maybe really don't know, let's simplify it real quick. Things like cortisol and prolactin and your thyroid, all of that is still changing, or it can be, based on what is commonly referred to as the second hormone shift. And so what I mean here is that the immediate crash, we'll call it that, the immediate crash of delivery happens with a woman's body. We know this. But that's long over once you get into this second hormone shift. And This window of the second hormone shift is characterized by what we'll call a fork in the road, depending entirely or greatly, really, on how you're feeding your baby. Breastfeeding versus bottle formula becomes really the central question here, because breastfeeding is more than just physical, putting the baby to the breast. It's a dynamic process.

18:18 biochemical process. And any woman who's had a baby will tell you that when your baby starts crying, it literally makes your milk drop. And when the baby latches, it releases hormones in your body, it releases happiness, dopamine, you get a pleasure sense when your baby is feeding. And Lindsay knew this and she wanted this to happen because that is what creates this bond that you want to feed your baby. It's this very deep bonding moment. Lindsay desperately wanted that feeling with baby Callan and she believed that was gonna happen through breastfeeding. That was the key to this process. But at that same time that she was wanting this, her mental health was continuing to just not improve. She was so aware of this that she started to wonder, is medicine the proper route for me to go? She did not want to be dependent on medications to be normal, quote unquote, but she desperately wanted to feel better. And even Patrick, I've told you this, he was worried about her to the point that He even said, you know, maybe medicinal intervention is what we need temporarily so that you can just get back to where you need to be. So while her decline was obvious, OK, it wasn't like a sharp drop off where one day she was typical Lindsay and then she was just nuts the next minute. That's not how this was going. It was a seemingly gradual decline, but one that over the months would become pretty obvious to everybody in her everyday life.

19:53 She was making sense. She was caring for the children. Don't get it twisted, okay? But her intense sadness and depression was now combined with not sleeping, and this was just draining her constantly. And lack of sleep alone is enough to cause people problems, you know, just by itself. Even the Cleveland Clinic acknowledges that after 24 hours of no sleep, some people will even start to experience tremors and hallucinations, not to mention that someone who's already depressed will even be more depressed from their lack of sleep. And this is what Lindsay was experiencing. She was in need of help as soon as possible because she was not coping well on her own. And it was now very clearly past the point of self-regulation and overcoming her situation.

20:46 So she even started to open up to Lainey, the babysitter, and told her that, look, I'm suffering from postpartum depression. I can't sleep. And she kind of expressed her troubles. And Lainey listened with compassion and promised that, In that, to love the kids and to take good care of them and wanted Lindsay to know that you can rest in that promise from me. Your kids will be taken care of so long as they are in my care. And soon after this, Lainey was actually really excited because she got to send Lindsay a video she took of baby Callan suckling Lindsay. on a bottle. He was doing so good. Look how good he's doing, Mama. And she took a short little video. It was short. It was sweet.

21:32 But Lainey was just really hoping in her soul that this would ease Lindsay's anxiety that day. Look, Mama, he's getting it. Okay, he's going to eat. It's going to be okay. So the days continued forward with the new routine. And Lindsay's mood was was seemingly stable, but certainly not herself, okay? It just was kind of stable sadness, I guess if you want to say. So exercise, music, walks, even dinners out with her girlfriends, that was happening, but none of it was making a difference. And Patrick continued to be worried. She was not suicidal or anything, but he wanted her happy.

22:13 Can we just get a smile from you? I need you to cheer up. We've got to figure this out. And then something happened in August that really caught Patrick's attention. And that was when one of his favorite singers passed away. We all know the pain of seeing someone that you admire like a celebrity when you see that they have died. I mean, hell, we all just went through that with the passing of Dolly. She just died as of this recording. And that hurt. A lot of people love Dolly. So Patrick loved Tom Hall. And so for my younger listeners who may not know him, I actually didn't know who he was until I read up and I was like, oh, I know about that. But he is a member of the Country Music Hall of Fame. And if you have ever heard the song Harper Valley PTA, I remember that song because my mom used to play it. He was part of the writing of that song, which was a huge hit. So Patrick himself was a musical guy. He played multiple instruments, including the guitar. So when Patrick was scrolling the internet and you read online that one of his musical favorites had died, he clicked on that link to find out why. He's like, old age, probably, you know.

23:25 But he was very surprised when he learned that the 85-year-old singer had died by suicide. And according to the medical examiner's report, He had sustained an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound. So Pat's like, whoa, that seems just so wild at that age. But hey, y'all, everybody's going through something no matter your age. It does not matter how old you are. Everybody is going through something. And by the way, I thought I'd add this just so you know. Did you know that suicide rates in the United States actually tend to peak during late spring and the summer months, particularly May through August? Most people, including myself, I used to believe that wintertime would have been when that happened because I know like the seasonal effect on people and all of that. But the very recent studies, if you look at them, say that's not the case. It's really towards the end or towards the summer months. Depression is a bitch.

24:25 And if it could overtake Tom Hall with all of his success in life, Lindsay's depressive state was concerning enough for Pat because that was his wife. And now look what's happening to people who arguably have been very successful and done very well in their lives. But Lindsay was continuing to go about her days. She never told anyone any feelings of wanting to die at this point in the story. So postpartum was something that he's like, hoping that's going to improve just with time. But when September of 2022 rolled around, Lindsay decided to take a real first step to getting help. And she went online and she found a place called Aster Mental Health. So this is a facility that specializes in mental health. And they also offered two types of appointments. You could go in person or you could choose to do it online, like through a telehealth type situation. So maybe you can't get up and get out of the house. Maybe you're just Can't get yourself to that point. Telehealth is there, but if you can and you can come in and you want to, we'll see you that way as well. So feeling good about what she was seeing, she decided that she was gonna fill out this pre-appointment paperwork online and she had opted for an appointment for September the 15th with a doctor named Dr. Jennifer Tufts. Now, why did she choose Dr. Tufts? Well, if you looked at her profile online, It said that Dr. Tufts' areas of specialty

25:55 included PTSD, trauma-related disorders, mood disorders, anxiety, OCD, ADHD, substance abuse, a lot of things. But the main part was that Dr. Tufts had a particular interest in women's mental health and perinatal psychiatry from pregnancy through two years postpartum. Well, that really resonated with Lindsay because that's what she felt was the issue. So as of this recording, I'll let you know, I went and looked and Dr. Tufts does have 4.8 out of 5 star rating online, which is proof that patients believed in her abilities and her care. And Lindsay was satisfied too after all that she had read about this doctor. So her forms were reviewed by Dr. Tufts before their session began. And she noted before it even began that she felt Lindsay's issues were being... As far as being self-reported by Lindsay on the forms, she felt that this was gonna be really more of a depression issue on top of maybe some postpartum, but really this was like a depression, anxiety issue. Lindsay specifically marked on her forms, depression, anxiety, racing thoughts, lack of sleep, and guilt.

27:15 There was a section that asked about being suicidal or hearing voices. Lindsay checked no to both of those. The guilt that she checked yes about, Lindsay went more in depth and she said that her guilt came from drinking five times a week. So drinking alcohol up to five times a week. I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt here. I'm guessing that meant like a glass of wine with dinner or something along those lines. I don't know, okay? No one will know for sure except the people who were in that house but that's what I'm guessing she meant here. Dr. Tufts did not mark that she believed that Lindsay was an alcoholic is what I'm trying to say. So her medical history was noted as having had anxiety in the past. And she did say that she had tried medication back while she was in nursing school. She put that she had tried Welbutrin and Prozac. And she also noted that she had no side effects when she tried that. Now, later on, I would find out that that medication was supposed to be because they had to do public speaking in nursing school.

28:21 And so she took that because of her extreme fear of public speaking. But she was not taking any of those meds any longer at this date and time. She also said that she had no desire to hurt herself and no desire to hurt anyone else. No voices were telling her to hurt anyone else. And she verified that she was not a substance abuser. I wanted to tell you all of that because that was Lindsay's own reporting of herself on the paperwork. Now, anybody who knew Lindsay... would agree that she was very against medication as a first line of defense for an issue, unless it was absolutely medically necessary. Of course, these questionnaires, while not all-inclusive, do point in a direction of a diagnosis-based you know, possibility at first glance. But Dr. Tufts not only looked at Lindsay's answers, but she met with her before she would come up with what she thought would be the diagnosis.

29:29 The very first meeting that they had between the women was on that September 15th, and it lasted roughly an hour. Now, that is a longer meeting than is standard unless the patient asks for it, because that's like a lot of intake is done at that appointment. That's why it lasted that long. Of course, I don't want to bog you down and bore you with the most minute of details. I mean, I can if you want it. If you want it, message me. I can bore you. I can give you everything. But I don't want to do that. So what I'm going to say here is either you can trust me and what I'm telling you or you can go watch the trial and see see it for yourself. It's up to you, America. Right. You do you exercise your free will. But I'm going to tell you what the overall findings were in these in these meetings. So that said, Lindsay was not considered to be manic. It was also noted that she was not in any type of psychosis. And it's important to tell you that this is a standard practice to assess for. So it's not like they just were like, in hindsight, going, no, she's not in psychosis. They test for that in this meeting.

30:38 So Kelly, how do they test for psychosis? Well, This isn't something that's self-reported by the patient. They don't say, are you in postpartum psychosis? And they say yes or no. No, because it's not going to be a patient-admitted thing. This is going to be a doctor observation of behavior combined with the answers on the questionnaire. And so what is the doctor looking for to make that determination? I think that's something pretty interesting to know. And they're looking at things like speech patterns. They're looking for visual cues, such as someone who is disheveled, paranoid. They're disjointed in their thoughts or their talking. Just their talking doesn't make sense.

31:22 It's disjointed. So the doctor's clinical notes said that this was clearly not the case because Lindsay was attentive, aware, logical. But Dr. Tufts did write that Lindsay was anxious, even though Lindsay self-reported that her mood was okay. But the doctor was like, I think she's got more anxiety than just having an okay mood. So after the specifics of feelings and concerns were covered, Dr. Tufts and Lindsay had an in-depth discussion as for what were Lindsay's goals for their sessions. What was Lindsay open to trying? Was there anything that Lindsay was not open to trying? Because a doctor cannot force you to do something, guys. You have free will, okay? And you can have boundaries. I don't want to do that. I do want to do this.

32:08 you know, it's a give and take. Lindsay was very clear to Dr. Tufts that she was apprehensive about being dependent on medication, and that since she was breastfeeding, she didn't want to stop doing that. So assessing all of this and taking it all into account, Dr. Tufts thought that medicine would actually be the best route at this point, but there were certainly other options that they could explore. So Lindsay was so consumed with anxiety about Callan not eating and that her older children were becoming such a challenge for her that that's why Dr. Tufts kind of came to that conclusion. So they discussed the best medication that would take her off of the edge, but not necessarily make her dependent and all of that. They looked at the pros and the cons of the drug Zoloft.

33:01 Zoloft is a commonly prescribed SSRI drug for anxiety let's pause real quick let's side quest everyone has a different opinion about zoloft everybody who's taken it has a different opinion on how it affects people this is one of those junctures in this podcast where i'm telling you we may not all agree because one person may have taken it and had side effects that another person didn't and that's part of our learning and understanding of all of this information right is that the totality of the circumstance here lindsay was reluctant to try it because she was worried about the possible side effects. But the standard or the more common side effects that she was advised that this drug had were really minimal. The reason I say minimal is because it's not like the listed side effects are things like you're gonna run and jump off a bridge, okay?

33:55 They were things more like upset stomach, diarrhea, tired, things along those lines. So the other positive was that it's okay to breastfeed while you're taking Zoloft. So once all of this was explained, Lindsay agreed to that prescription. That said, Dr. Tufts prescribed the lowest dose possible, which was 25 milligrams. She told Lindsay for the first week, I want you to take 25 milligrams. I want to see how the effects are. if you feel like it's okay, then I want you to increase it to 50 milligrams the following week. Dr.

34:36 Tufts also explained that this medicine was not going to be a cure-all and that additional therapy should be sought in conjunction with taking this medication. But if she chose not to take the meds, that's okay too. She just needed to check back in with Dr. Tufts, update her about her decision, and they could go from there. Now, it's important right here in this part of the story to also understand. Dr. Tufts is a psychiatrist. That means that she went to med school. She is a medical doctor. MD is after her name. She understands and has studied the chemical components of medication. She has studied and understands how they are metabolized, as well as their effects on the body, and she can prescribe medication. The additional therapy is that Dr. Tufts was referring Lindsay to in conjunction with her help from this Dr. Tufts, the psychiatrist, was with what is a psychologist. And they're not the same thing.

35:36 And I think some people don't realize that. I know a lot of us do, but I think some people don't. Psychologists are gonna have like PhD behind their name, not MD. So they are professionals, no doubt. They're PhDs, they're doctors in their field. but they are more mind oriented. They cannot prescribe medications. And the psychologist goals are focused more on human behavior, thought patterns, and emotions. And this matters because their purposes and their goals are different and they are not duplicating. So Lindsay signed off on the informed consent paperwork stating at the end of this meeting that she understood everything that had been said, She understood what the plan was at this moment, and then the appointment ended.

36:27 So after work that day, Patrick and Lindsay talked about the appointment and how they felt good about the plans that were put in place. The hardest part is always the first step in anything that you're suffering with, but Lindsay had done that, and that was a good thing. So Lindsay filled the prescription and And then she made a follow-up appointment with Dr. Tufts for about two weeks later, which would have been September the 28th. Now, this second appointment, when it came, would be much shorter than the first one. Again, because this is not an intake meeting. She's got all of the information already. Per Lindsay's choice, this was a virtual appointment. So she didn't go into the office. This is virtual. It's telehealth. And overall... Lindsay told Dr. Tufts that she had chosen not to take the medication, even though she had gone and she had filled it. She told Dr. Tufts that baby Callan had been sleeping better, which meant Lindsay said she had gotten a little bit more sleep. She also told Dr. Tufts that she was feeling a bit improved and she said that her mood was okay. She said, again, because they check every time.

37:34 She was not hearing voices. She said she was not suicidal. All of the other checkpoints I've mentioned, I don't want to keep repeating them. All of those were negative as well. So Dr. Tuff said, okay, did you go follow up, like I said, and go see the psychologist? And Lindsay said, not yet, but... She wanted to, and Dr. Tufts said, okay, look, you really need to go see somebody. And she suggested someone by the name of Jennifer McAllister as a good option as a therapy provider. Lindsay, again, understood the assignment, signed off on the plan, and that appointment ended. But back at the house, still living in their family life, Lindsay told Patrick that she just didn't think that she was going to be ready to go back to work yet.

38:19 She just needed more time. This was going too quickly. And two days later, after that second appointment, Lindsay sent a message to Dr. Tufts through an online patient portal. And she explained that mentally, she just was not ready to go back to work yet. And she wanted to know if Dr. Tufts would write her a letter that she could turn into the hospital to request for a longer maternity leave or an extension to the maternity leave. So Dr. Tufts kind of comes back and she's like, look, have you started any of the Zoloft? And Lindsay said, no, but she said, I'm feeling better. And Dr. Tufts says, okay, we still need to have another appointment then so that we can do further assessment. So in the month of October, and I know I'm just going month by month. And again, guys, I don't want to bore you, but to me, the facts matter. I want to make a decision based off of facts. So I'm giving it all to you. So in the month of October, I want you to know that Lindsay would see or interact online with Dr. Tufts about seven times, which would be basically every few days that month. So these interactions are important to put in the back of your mind. It's not just how many interactions they had, but also what was said and the changes in her health plan, which I'm going to summarize for you here. So on October the 3rd, Dr. Tufts responded and provided the extension letter for the maternity leave paperwork.

39:51 That same day, Lindsay went and made an appointment with that suggested licensed mental health counselor, Jennifer McAllister. A few days later, on October the 10th, Lindsay messaged Dr. Tufts again and asked if she could make some adjustments on that maternity extension letter that she had sent, saying that anxiety and an inability to care for patients needed to be expressly stated in the letter. A little bit deeper in that messaging, Lindsay also said that she was not going to take the Zoloft because she wanted to try the therapy first. And remember, she had gone and she had made that meeting with McAllister. In the first meeting with Ms. McAllister, Lindsay said that she was close with her oldest sister. She mentioned that she was very close with her parents and that she had a big support system around her. And that's important. Lindsay was not on her own here. And that's part of a psychological evaluation is do you have a support system to help sustain you in your times of weakness? And Lindsay said yes.

41:00 So Lindsay would then continue through her days. She would even go to lunch again with her friend, Andrea Hennigan. The ladies met up. They enjoyed catching up with one another. And Andrea's like, girl, when are you coming back to work? It's got to be coming up soon. And that's when Lindsay told her that she just didn't want to return to work. She went further to say her insomnia and her brain fog were just getting in the way. And she opened up and told Andrea that she was also seeking help, that she was getting therapy. And in these days that had passed since I told you that she had spoken to Dr. Tufts about the Zoloft, she told her friend Andrea that she had decided to start Zoloft and she wanted to see if it was gonna help her.

41:46 So the next appointment, that Lindsay had with Dr. Tufts would be on October the 20th. When she goes in, she tells Dr. Tufts, look, I started the Zoloft. Not only did I take some, but then I increased the dose like you told me to. But then she said, when I did that, I felt awful. And so I stopped taking it. So let's pause for a second. The lowest dose possible of this Zoloft is 25 milligrams. And that is what Lindsay was started on. Not a very high dose, the lowest one. But Zoloft, again, it's used to treat depression, PTSD, panic disorder, anxiety, okay? The documented side effects of Zoloft, I told you they're benign. Things like nausea, diarrhea, drowsiness, lowered sex drive. Well, the good news is that this drug, by the point of this doctor's appointment was pretty much, it's metabolized very quickly. And so when Lindsay was saying that the medicine made her feel bad and so she had just stopped taking it, Dr.

42:58 Tufts wasn't necessarily agreeing professionally with Lindsay's explanation that the medicine was making her feel bad. And I want to stop right here and tell you, again, it's not a science podcast. But I want you to truly understand things. And I hope you can appreciate this little further discussion for just a second. Because I'm going to share a few points with you that may matter at the very end of this series when you are left as a listener to ponder your own thoughts and what you think happened in this case. Also, all of the medication information that I'm sharing with you is based off of data from dailymed.gov. That's the site. It's linked in my show notes for reference if you'd like to go see where I got this information from. But with Zoloft, when you take it once a day, the drug builds up and it reaches a stable, consistent level. It's called a steady state in your blood after one week of consistently taking it daily. Hear me out on this. Lindsay filled that prescription on September the 29th. Per Lindsay's own discussion with the doctor, her own admissions in the record, and her friend Andrea, she still had not started taking it by October the 10th. So this means that only 10 days passed between her starting it and her next appointment, if you're keeping up with these dates. And by the time of that next appointment, she already had stopped it because

44:30 she told the doctor, right, that she had stopped taking it. She started it and then she stopped it. Well, Zoloft has a half-life of 26 hours. So basically, the potency and effect would drop in half every 26 hours. And my point is this. The reason Dr. Tufts came to the conclusion that she did and didn't agree with Lindsay feeling bad because of the Zoloft was because she felt like she was starting or continuing to feel bad because of her depression. Her symptoms... We're not indicative of what Zoloft normally has as a side effect. The side effects aren't sadness and a lack of motivation for Zoloft. That was Lindsay's only continued main complaint. She did say she had a stomach ache. Well, if you're on the lowest dose of a medication for less than 10 days, and something else I can add in right now is that Lindsay had only taken seven pills a out of that entire prescription in that 10 day period. Well, that just doesn't fit what the patient is describing as an adverse effect.

45:41 Lindsay said herself that she took the 25 milligram and then doubled the dosage as she had been told to do. So if the pills were 25 milligram and she only took seven total pills, and at one point she admits that she had doubled the dose, I don't know the combination of how and when and what day. I just know there's like a 10-day period here. But assuming she took one pill on October the 11th, and then on October 12th, she doubled it. So she took two. October the 13th, she took two. October the 14th, she took two. Whatever day she took them. And then she abruptly quit taking them. That accounts for seven pills. But it also means that she only took the medication for a total of, of four days. It would take her more days to have even hit that maximum component, right, in her blood.

46:40 And because of the half-life, it would have been out of her system. Like the main effect of it would have been out of her system based on the half-life by the time that she was back seeing Dr. Tufts again. Yet she's saying she still felt awful. And I took the time to break that down for you because I took the time to break it down for myself. And for that reason, I agree with Dr. Tufts on her assessment that day. I don't think it was the Zoloft that did that because of everything I just explained. I think her depression was just horrible. So what did Dr. Tufts do with her professional opinion combined with what Lindsay was telling her? She adjusted the plan. She said, you know what? Stop taking the Zoloft altogether. I agree. Don't take the Zoloft. So in her mind, what? Get rid of the medication. Lindsay said, you know, I'm just worried.

47:29 Maybe I'll become suicidal or something if I don't start feeling better soon. So Dr. Tufts said, if you don't want to take the medicine because you don't like it, maybe we should look into more natural remedies. If that's something that you want to try, I'm open to doing that. Well, she also added that you need to continue with the therapy with that psychologist as well. And Lindsay said she was going to think on it and then she would want to have another meeting with Dr. Tufts. That was the appointment. The very next day, on October the 21st, Lindsay made a virtual appointment. Lindsay again reported she was not suicidal. She was not homicidal. She was not hearing voices.

48:09 And she said this day that she wasn't necessarily depressed. So you're looking at this going, you are, you aren't, you are, you aren't. Which one is it? Again, that seems like depression. But Dr. Tuft made a comment in the notes, a professional comment that said, Lindsay is denying depression, but the doctor seems to think she is. I mean, she really is giving off depressed. But because of her continued anxiety and she made an appointment the very next day, Dr. Tufts then suggested, what if we try Ativan? But Ativan, this prescription was just as needed. This was not something she was told to take every day. If her anxiety were to spike severely, she could take one of the Ativan to calm herself down. Dr. Tufts said, try it for a week, get back with me on that, and then follow up with your therapy as we have discussed.

49:06 So exactly five days later, they had another appointment on the 26th. Lindsay's clinical presentation was much the same, depressed and anxious, but she told Dr. Tufts that she tried the Ativan and it was working. She also said, look, I've all, uh, Lindsay said, I've also been taking Benadryl with it. And I like that it's working for me. She said, I'm not suicidal. She did not have any of the doctor's, um, uh, notes or anything that would lend that she was in any type of psychosis. And she was already scheduled again to see her therapist, Ms. McAllister. So Dr. Tufts said, look, if the Benadryl is working, that's awesome, but that is not meant for sleep. That's more of an allergy medicine. So I'm going to prescribe you hydroxyzine because that would be a better fit. It's got a similar effect of Benadryl, but it's for anxiety.

50:00 And Lindsay was like, oh, okay, that makes sense. So Dr. Tufts was still trying to adjust medication to quell Lindsay's continued anxiety and depression, but also make sure she wasn't taking medication inappropriately, right? Like the Benadryl. So she also discussed with her that they could try a medication called Buspar. That's for anxiety. But again, minimal side effects such as a headache or nausea and the half-life of that drug, well, it was only two to three hours. So it's out of your system pretty quick. And Lindsay agreed. She said, you know, that sounds good. So she went and she filled that prescription of one month, 30 pills for the Buce Bar. So Halloween of 2026 was really, really fun for the kiddos. It was now, you know, the end of October. Lindsay had a virtual appointment with her therapist, Miss McAllister, right before trick-or-treating the day of. And trick-or-treating is fun. And all three of her kiddos were ready to go have some fun. Dawson, my man Dawson, I got to tell you something. This little fellow was so giddy when he picked out his costume because he was dressing up as a real firefighter. And everyone was going to look at him and they were going to think he was the real deal. When he was looking in the mirror and he was putting on that costume, he knew.

51:23 He said, we're not going to tell anybody that I'm not a real firefighter. We're going to let them believe it. And he checked himself out in that mirror. He had on his plastic red fireman's hat. It looked so real. And he had a yellow badge. That sticker was right on the front of his helmet. And his jacket was the coolest. It was the coolest one that two-year-old boy had ever seen in his entire life. It was red and it had the yellow stripes on it. And it even had a real reflective silver strip across it. If the cars would pass by him, they were going to see that reflection shine bright and they're going to see his boots. It just brought it all together, just like the real guys. And of course, the sleeves were a little bit long and his black boots with that yellow trim, they were a bit bulky because he was a little fella.

52:14 But when he took off running towards a pretend fire, he looked so cool. Daddy, look, look how cool. And you want to know what else? You won't believe this, but his mama and daddy had found him a real pretend fire extinguisher to go trick-or-treating with. And he could hold it up and take a fireman's stance while he was pointing it and putting out every fake fire along the path. He was a cool guy, y'all. And daddy was snapping pictures. Mama, they're snapping pictures all along the way. And daddy was just so proud of his little buddy, big cheesing at that camera. And mama was watching them do their trick-or-treating. And all three kids had fun and candy galore. It was like hitting the lottery. Every kid loves candy. You come in. And all three, well, not all three of them, because obviously baby Callan, he's too little.

53:05 But they dumped out their buckets and looked at all the candy. But don't you dare touch mine, right? The kids don't want each other digging each other's buckets. That's my candy. But remember Cora. Cora had to take care of her babies. And Callan can have some of mine if he wants it. She's just a sweetheart. But she had to be reminded Callan can't have any baby. Him don't have any teeths yet. He can't chew the candy. He's just got his little baby gums. And when he would smile big, that's all you could see. These dimples and those little gums. Just a sweet baby. And he didn't need candy. Just snuggles and a warm bottle and maybe some shuggies on his neck, which tickled and would make him grin real big. That was just as good as candy to that little man. So the kids were even excited to tell babysitter Laney about everything and how fun Halloween was. Everything in the Clancy home was going as usual and the routines were well established by this point.

54:08 So why wasn't Lindsay improving much? Behind the scenes and unknown to most people in Lindsay's life, the medicines prescribed to date None of them were really being taken as everyone thought that they were being taken. And I don't mean in overuse either. I'm going to be clear. I mean in underuse. That Zoloft prescription from September, she only took seven out of the 30 pills. How do you know? Because there were still 23 left in the bottle. That October prescription, those three that Dr. Tufts prescribed, that Ativan prescription, 14 pills. of the 30 pills were still in the bottle.

54:53 That Buspar prescription from October, 28 of the 30 pills were still in the bottle. In the hydroxyzine, 27 of those 30 pills were still in the bottle. So as it stood, when the Clancy children went to bed Halloween night, Lindsay wasn't getting much better and she wasn't taking much medication. While 120 pills were prescribed total across all of the prescriptions thus far, only 28 pills were missing from all of the prescriptions to this point. Yet November would come and the Clancy family was pushing through. Lainey was still watching the children three days a week. Lindsay was still going to the doctor and seeing her therapist. Patrick was working and paying the bills. Lindsay was focusing on her mental health. She even bought some self-help books to try and work on herself and what was going on. She also started a log of all of her medications to keep track. And Lainey continued to help with the children.

56:05 So what would happen over the next 84 days? 84, that's an odd number to mention, I know. But 84 days... feels really heavy to me in this moment. Because 84 more mornings would come. 84 days of the children laughing and playing. 84 more days of meals and running errands and conversations and ordinary little moments that feel completely insignificant at the time. And yet somewhere in that seemingly ordinary stretch of life, the clock was winding down, tick by tick by tick. So remember this whenever you get your tissues ready for next week's episode. 84 is a huge number, but it's not 84 degrees, an ordinary warm weather temperature.

57:11 It's not $ 84 for a medical bill. It's not 84 people gathering at a party. It's not a birth year to celebrate. It's actually quite the opposite. 84 matters here because at this place and this series, it's the total number of days remaining in the Clancy children's lives.