Taken!

0:06 Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell stories of real crimes with real victims whose cases are so shocking that many are left wondering how is this even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections, and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator, dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so evil many feel they are unspeakable. Warning. Unspeakable as intended for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey y'all, kJ back here for another episode of Unspeakable, a true crime podcast by Kelly Jennings. How are y'all doing? I'm super duper duper duper excited. That was an extra duper an extra duper excited for the person that I have here today to talk to me. It's a special guest. But before I get to that, I have some patron members I want to reach out to and say, Hey, are you doing, Miss Helen Laparus? I hope I did not destroy your name. I tried on that one. I've never seen Laparus as a last name before, so message me. If I got it wrong, I'll fix it. But I appreciate you being a patron member and thank you so much.

1:30 And we also have a miss Lee Anne Hamous Lee. How are you. I'm so thankful to have you as part of our patron team. Thank you so much for joining us. And I hope that you enjoyed today's episode because this is going to be a little bit different because I have the person that was right there in the midst of it, right she smelt it, she felt it, she tasted it, she was part, she was the case in this instance. And I think it's a great thing when I'm able to have someone who was victimized speak to me about it rather then remember them about it. So today is my friend, Miss Stacy Pola Zola. How are you, Miss Stacy. I'm thank you. I'm so glad you came in today. I know that we've been um. We've worked together for I don't know, fifteen years or so. We've always had a pretty good working relationship. But I was working somewhere one time a school won't name, but I'll never forget this. I was eating lunch. There was a group of people sitting there, and your name came up for whatever we were working on, and then randomly in the middle of biting a subway sandwich. The person next to me said, yeah, you know she was kidnapped, right, and then took another bite of the sandwich and then never said another word to me about it. And I was like, excuse me, you're gonna have to elaborate morphin, it's chew and I need more information. But she said, I don't really know. I don't really have much more than you know.

2:51 I know that she was kidnapping and she made it, she survived, and I was totally stunned by that. You know, I'm sure as I'm sure you were, and so I wanted to have you on today. We've never talked about it, so this is gonna be new for me as it is for the listeners. And so why don't you, first of all, let me describe you so people will know you are every bit of five foot what four foot eleven? Four foot eleven? All right? To me? That matters when we're gonna talk about what happened. She's a tiny little thing. I could put her in my pocket and take her with me if I wanted two. Right, So, you're four eleven and at the time that this happened, how old we I was thirty nine, thirty nine, and the guy we're gonna talk to talk about that was involved in this was about thirty three when it happened. So y'all weren't super young chickens, y'all were, you know, well comparatively, yes, but we weren't teenagers or anything old enough to definitely know better than we're adults. Yeah, y'all were adults.

3:52 All right, we'll talk me through it. Tell me what happened, because this is this is a lot well it. We had left for an evening. It was New Year's Eve. U. I had dropped my boys off, had a sleepover they were going to, which is why I was in my own car that that evening. We were going to dinner out at the casino. Who's we uh, my parents, UM, my friend, you know, the four of us were headed out to the casino, um, the old casino Magic whatever in Baton in Baton Rouge. That was when you know, the boats had kind of just they hadn't been in Baton Rouge terribly long. Uh. So we were going out there for dinner and some friends of ours were the band that was playing. We did that and then we were you know, stuck around to watch the fireworks on the river.

4:47 Um, you know, Nina, that was kind of it. And um, when we got ready to leave, we had a great evening, a lot of fun. UM got ready to leave. My we had valet parked, everybody at valet parked, and my friend had left early because he had to work the next day. So when the valet guys came, you know, they brought my car, they brought my parents car. I motioned for my parents to get in front of me because you know, I'm going to watch them. We actually lived in the same neighborhood at the time, so you know, we're headed We're headed home. I was. We approached the Government Street in South tenth exit. When you go right on South tenth, the ramp to the interstate is right there, and my parents were in front of me. They made the right turn to get on the interstate, and I actually caught the light all right, the car across the intersection. I saw my dad on the ramp hit his break lights. Uh, the car coming at us made a left turn, and when my dad saw the lights behind him, you know, then he left as soon as the light turned green. Almost spontaneously, somebody ran into the back of my car. How hard was it? Was it a tap or was it? Well, you

6:19 know, when you get hit from behind, it feels worse than it probably really you know was but it was enough to get my attention, and it was enough to uh make me super angry. Okay, like really, I know, you just didn't run into my car. Uh and and to you know, pour oil, you know, on on top of the situation, I had just paid my car off that day. It was like a big celebration, like who cars paid for? Uh So anyway, I was mad, and um, you know, my four foot eleven hundred pounds self follow the I made the right turn. I pulled to the side of the road.

7:03 Of course you did, because good people follow the rules, yes, and do what they're supposed to. You're supposed to get information and exchange driver's license. That's what you do. Okay. As angry as I was, and just really never even thought about it, I mean, and I got my driver's license. I pushed the door open to get out, and you know, he put a forty five in my face and pushed me back into my car. And then he came with it, you know, he just it and it was so fast and so quick, you know, you just didn't even respond. Next thing, you know, I'm on the entrance ramp, you know, with a crazy person, a stranger in control of your life at that point. Yeah, yeah, So he shoved you over this inner console into the passage that hanso. I had a camera at the time, and it wasn't you know, a high or it had a low console, you know, thinking back, I don't know why. Of course, you always think back, one why did you stop? Two? Why didn't I go out the other door? But you know what, let me say something about that. So I recently took a course and became a certified like rape defense instructor, and something that stuck out to me in that not that this was about a rate, but just in general. You know, she said that commonly when they interview people who were victims of violence, domestic violence

8:35 or rape or anything like that, that they always think back and say, my god, why didn't I do this? Why didn't I do that? But something you're supposed to always remember is you did exactly what you needed to do because you survived. Yeah, And there's something to be said there, and that's absolutely true. You did exactly what you needed to do, you know, and throughout the ordeal. Uh, you know, it is easy to look back, but in the heat of the moment, because anyone who knows my personality knows that I would not tolerate that. A gun changes everything. Yeah, okay, a gun changes and can take down the biggest, strongest guy. When a gun is involved, it's it's different. Neither stakes are different. Absolutely, and you are very much. Um, I very much felt like Gumby. Yeah, you know, I really did. There really sucks all of the life out of it. Did you feel heavy?

9:31 Hey, what did you feel like once you realized Oh my god, did he say anything? Uh? He was? He was screaming because I was screaming. Were you screaming words? Were you just screaming? I was screaming because I wanted out, you know, and I was begging, let me out, stop stop stop the car and um, you know I had visions of when you got on that interstate. There's that um that park down on town. Oh yeah, with the basketball under the inner State. Uh. For whatever reason, I was always fearful of that area as as even a child, because my grandparents lived there many many years ago. Um. I don't know why, but I am, and I really felt like that's where, you know, my life was flashing in front of me because I was like, he's taking me there, that's you know, yeah, I mean what else would he want with me? Um? You know, I didn't know this was going to drag out into you know, a very long ordeal.

10:33 Uh. So there was a moment of I'm glad we passed that exit, okay, but then there was a moment of what are you doing with me? Why? And um? Completely out of control? I was um and he was what was he yelling? Do you know? Like he just shut up? He was very and very angry, very you know, um. And I'm sure his adrenaline was out the roof too. I don't know. I'm never coming at it a really serious crime, um, but but he was very, um, very hostile at the time. Did he look like a bad guy. He wouldn't let me look you know, if I tried to look over then you know, he became quite violent. Um.

11:20 You know, so I was supposed to look down, you know, not to look at him. Um. I don't really really remember, but he was screaming that we were we were headed too. He kept saying to shut up because we were headed to Mississippi. Well, he missed the turn and took the split, and so I, you know, knew we were headed toward New Orleans. Um. The the things that I remember most during that initial hour two hours, Um, you become quite aware of your surroundings because you're looking, you're trying to make mental notes, You're trying to figure out, you know, some kind of option. Uh. And I remember being on the hit it to New Orleans on you know, the basin and thinking, um, well, I could just open the car dooring, Um, yeah, you know, that could be an option. I didn't like that option because he was he was driving fast. The other thing I noticed is on New Year's Day, there is not a lot of um car traffic because everyone has been out through the you know, New Year's Eve. There was no police on the road. There's no running radar because everybody probably worked the night before, you know. So I just remember and I remember the weather

12:52 conditions. It was very uh it was cold and kind of just a overcast, funky kind of day. Uh. So my options were quite limited at the time. So where's the gun now? While you're the gun is in his lap, the gun stays kind of in his lips. He had one hand on it or um for them, you know, for the little bit I saw. Uh, you know, I tried not to look. Um. He had a white um like hand towel. I guess over it, uh in his lab So talk about premeditation though, there to have something to cover it even in the event. I guess that someone looked over from a higher vehicle or something. I don't why would he come. Why was he covering it? You think? I don't know, you know what I mean, like he's trying to Why do you not? Why do you take me and just you know, yeah, not just take the vehicle? Uh?

13:54 And I don't know if that was you know, who knows? I mean, was that planned? Was it? You know, just a spur of the moment um? I don't know, you know, I um, I've never had that conversation with him. I would like to, yeah, you know, wow, Oh we're going to come back to that. That would be interesting. So where are you right now in your mind while we're driving? Are we on the bridge to New Orleans? Well you are, I am. We are on the bridge to New Orleans. And um, I was in a place where, probably for the first time, in my entire life. Um, I felt very hopeless. And that was a feeling that I still remember today because I'm a super super confident person. I'm very positive person. You're very calm collected, You're you from my experience, you think before you speak. I don't have that gift, y'all. And you seem usually collected, put together with a plan. But then when you have no choice, I had nothing, Yeah, And I can remember thinking bringing it back because by at the time, by trade, I was a counselor, you know, I had a master's degree in counseling. That's what I was

15:24 doing. And I remember, you know, I've worked with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of kids through my forty years of being in the system, and I remember the school system. Yeah, I remember thinking, all this time working with kids, I really did not know what feeling hopeless felt like. I thought I did right, okay, and I argued you up one side and down the other. But I did not okay. And it Uh, that moment in time changed me. It changed how I approached young people or even adults and the journey that they were on. Uh, it's so much more than book knowledge. Um, you know, to to work with people and understand the journey that they are on. UM. And I remember that very distinctly distinct league where where exactly at that moment I was, Um, he got very turned around in New Orleans, which was frustrating him, and so y'all made it into the city. He made it into the city, and I think that was creating even war stress on him. And because you know, too, bad guys. I'm gonna call them bad guys because it's my podcast. I knew what I want, UM, but the bad guys too. UM always seemed to think police know more than they know. It's

16:59 kind of comical. So like he feels like I would assume, he feels like, oh my gosh, everyone's looking for this car. Everybody's looking for me. You know, when, really, did anyone even know you were gone yet? By this point, I did not think so. Okay, I would later find out yeah they did, but I would not think so at the time. You're still in such a hyper state you're I was not even you know, looking back on that whole situation, at that particular moment, I was not even if someone would have said, hey, you've been kidnapped, Like it just wasn't logically registering what was happening, but he pulled into a parking lot and made me drive m So he took some stress off of himself. Yes, you get to be the tour guy at this point I get to which was okay, even worse now yea, So my thought was fun. I mean I didn't know where I was going either, you know, given and New Orleans is scary enough if you do know what you're doing down there, and if you're not from here, I want to point that out to you that you know, locals, we understand what like Marty Girl, right, everyone who's not from here, Oh, Marty Girl, New Orleans. Yeah, Marty Garl New Orleans bro. Not safe. Got to be careful, got to be in the right state of mind, right, people. You know, like when we go down there, we're not

18:30 drinking and all that because we want to be aware of our surroundings. It's the murder capital of the world. And now you're down there, don't know where you are, don't know who you're with, I don't know where you're going. I mean, it's it's it's way more than just you're driving a car and don't know what to do. I mean it's compounded well, and it threw another option in of do irect the car? And what would the consequence of that be? Easy? Gonna shoot me if I wrecked the car again? In that state of um, you know, he easily was elevated to next level. Did he seem intoxicated or he was high? I mean he not intoxicated alcohol intoxicated. I'm sure he had hit on something like crack yea upper because he was wide eyed and just um. And I'm looking at his picture real quick, not to go all over the place. I'm trying to be in your shoes, you know what I mean, which I never hopefully will ever be, but in that situation, but he is very like unassuming. In this still shot that I'm looking at, he kind of looks like a goober. H And that is a very cleaned up picture of him.

19:48 Okay, what did he look? Very very scruffy when white male, white male? How tall? Then? Probably, I don't know, not terribly tall five eight ish maybe. Let me give the let me give the people. His name. His name was Gary Hayman, and he's this isn't his you know, he's not a choir boy. We'll talk about that more later. But then he was he's tall, you say, uh, not not terrible. Everybody's tall. Yeah, I guess in you're four eleven, you're looking over at everybody. Everybody. He was a huge fellow. He was not huge. He was not huge. Um, long, scraggly, you know, kind of grayish hair. Um, you can tell rough life, rough okay, rough life. What was he wearing? Do you remember kind of thing? Uh? Jeans and I don't really remember T shirty kind of like those that those questions. I can see how irrelevant that information was because you're collecting survival tools and and I paid very close attention to uh because when I was driving back towards Baton Rouge. Was that a relief? Well, it gave Like I said, there were more options to me at that point that I'm trying to figure out. And way he calmed down somewhat after I became the driver. Now were you speaking with him? Were y'all having

21:22 a little short Q? Not Q and a but like a short Where was he saying turn go here? Do that? And you weren't saying anything or he was in complete control during this time period. It was not until we made the exit to fifty five hit it toward Mississippi. Um that I just I calmed down and was looking at I want to see my children. Yeah, I want out of this situation, and screaming was not working. Okay.

22:03 So I remember the moment even going down fifty five, where I had to just take a deep breath and it was kind of like a conversation with God. At that point, he gave me a set of skills. I was a counselor use them, Stacy, use what you have. And I did glance over and he had a tattoo. It's his I don't remember now it's been a long time ago, but I don't remember if it was his name or initials. But I commented on the tattoo and he screamed at me to you know, quit looking drive and and I asked him where are you from? And why are you so pissed off at everything? Yeah, that was kind of a moment, okay um where I felt like I had some tiny bit of control, not a lot, but um, I was going to be in control of Stacy. Okay. Um. He gave me short answers, but then would always follow up with shut up and drive. Um kind of thing. At one point about I don't know, maybe two and

23:33 a half three hours into this UM, which must have felt like a lifetime life. It's a lifetime. UM. I wanted I had to go to the bathroom, you know, I was just I needed to go potty. Yeah, And then I told him I have to go potty. I mean, you're you have to bring me and we you shooting a kidnapped a woman if you did not want to take potty breaks, get it together, Gary, and so uh, he pulled to told me to pull in. There was a UM, a rest area, and of course he threatened me, you know that if I made any emotion, if I tried to dart, um, he was gonna kill me and anybody else that got in his way.

24:25 UM. There were a couple of people at the rest area, UM, which was a new kind of emotion because here are people, and how do you get their attention? You really can't. I mean, you know, I tried. I tried to think of ways, you know, everything like eye contact, blinking, staring something, but you know, you don't really People just walk by you. They don't realize, oh, here's someone who's being held captive. He went into the UM. The doorway of them the restaurant and stood there like outside of what a stall would be, and somebody came in and it must have startled another lady that a gentleman was in there. And he said, oh, my wife is in there. She's sick. So that's how that kind of panned out. Um. And then we got back into the car. He had again the gun in the white towel. Um, So he got into the driver's seat at this point, UM. And then we drove for hours again UM. Sometimes I felt like in circles. But he did start to, UM, have some communication and

26:00 you know, a little short answer, short questions, not about anything. Just I reached over and turned the radio one just because, um, And there actually was a the forty Niners were playing a football game and raising boys. I just begin to talk nervous football kind of thing. So that went on, and we're now probably twelve o'clock. Can we say, yeah, so we're about twelve o'clock. Where what can we flash back to your parents right now? Can about like what happened up to that point? When did they realize you didn't make it home? Or did they they knew immediately I did not make it home because the regular m o of a daddy who raises girls. Follow the girls home, and the rule was you went inside, you locked the door, and you flash the cardboard light. You know, so they actually knew immediately. Um and they and this is no cell phone or did you have one? I had a bag. You look like you're taking rounds and war with those bag phones calling for backup. Yah. Yeah, you know I had a bag cell phone that was on the floor of the back seat. Okay, uh somewhere around uh Ponchatoula. He threw it

27:37 out the window. Um, and I had a um patrem and um, you know it just it was going off NonStop. Obviously you know you knew, I knew my family was calling and and but it's a pare back in the day. Yeah, it was a patre. Um gives you a look? Did it give you an ounce of hope when you hear it vibrate? Though maybe in any way like they're looking, you know, it didn't. It didn't, honestly, because I was fearful of the page. You're setting him off kind of like the phone. Yeah, you know, he was having none of that. So it was kind of every time it went off, it was like, yeah, he's going to hear that eventually, that vibration, and at this point I kinda I'm just trying to stay alive.

28:37 Yeah, you know, I want to, like I said, you go back to you want to see your kids and your family. And you know what made this difficult in its own you know, even complicated beyond it. In my neighborhood growing up as a child, the neighborhood was very close, brought together by a little neighborhood swim club. So the parents were all good friends, those kids were all very close. And we had a very dear friend of ours four houses down who disappeared three years earlier than me and has never to this day, there has never been one ounce of information regarding her whereabouts. What was her name? Her name? Her name was Donna Gonzales.

29:36 And the Gonzales family, like I said, we were very all of us very close. My little sister's best friend. They had five children, we had four. You know, she is on a summer leave. She had been in a seminary, probably going to enter religious life, and was all for the summer. First day of a little job, they find her car at a convenience store and as she's gone, how old was she uh roughly, uh, probably twentiesh My god. So the neighborhood, Um, it was a it was a fearful event for our entire you know, neighborhood.

30:29 I brought back a lot. We spent a lot of time, myself included, down in Raine, Louisiana, hunting fields and everything for um, you know, any shred of evidence, um, you know, for our friend. Um. So that's you know, and in the back of my mind, I did for whatever reason, because I knew my parents were going to be just completely devastated right now. Uh kind of thing. So that's kind of but that's also the them to try and stay composed, try and again look at options. Um so you're so you're talking football, Yes, we're talking football. Um. He's the only um like comment he made with regards to he was trying to find something that had been left for him in Mississippi. It was by a river, was all he said. Well that created in me this whole other emotion of uh, oh my god, he's gonna drown me. Yeah, Okay, at that point I felt like I'd rather be shot, you know, drowning, just and in what a place to be that you're having to contemplate what what should what death do I want?

31:52 Yeah? Uh, so you know it was I knew I didn't want to be by a river, you know, I just didn't all kind of thing. And it was a little time pass and um he wanted He said we were going to get a hotel room for him to resk. Yeah, that was kind of my exact thought. But you know, you do what you have to do to survive. And I just knew that if I could keep time, that that was in my favor. And so, you know, we pulled into um, I guess it was kind of like a day's in type hotel room's face outside, two story. Um, we pulled into the little you know check in whatever. We go inside. He tells me, you know you're gonna rent this room, and again I get the if you move, if you make any kind of you know, um motion, et cetera, I'll kill you and anyone else. So there's one gentleman at the desk. Um, and you go back to that icontact like can you see that, I'm you know, scared to desk anything. Um, fill out you know the little paper and is he in the car, know he's standing behind me, with a pistol in my back. Ah. Yeah,

33:27 so again you know he has the upper hand. You do as you're told. Um, I rent the room. Um, I ran my charge card even though I had cash. Smart girl, um and so um we walk out with the key and he all of a sudden kind of has like this little mini melt down, like you wrote something on that paper, didn't you? And I had not. I thought about it, but I did not, and he couldn't let it go. And I could see that panic starting to rise again, and I told me, I said, well, come on, come see. And I went back and I told the guy.

34:14 I was like, give me the paper that I just filled out, and I showed it to him. I said now, and I tossed it back and let's go Southern warm bun extend time. Are you happy now, kidnapper? Yeah? It was. You know at the time, it's like, you know, I'm just wanting extra time. Yeah. So we get into this hotel room and you're doing the quick scan. You know, you're looking. That's where the feeling of gum being comes from, because you know, you got a lamp. What's a day's in? So that damn thing screwed to the table. Yeah, that's no good. There's a telephone. And literally I can remember picking like my purse up and I just felt like it weighed four hundred pounds. So even if I had something that I could have hit him with, you just can't, just can't. I went to the ladies room, did the quick look in the bathroom. Zero. He said we were going to go to the store. I was going to give him a haircut. And of course in my mind thinking scissors. Yes, yeah, could I stab someone? And that was a thought in my head, like could I do that? I don't know that even with my little bad

35:45 self, I couldn't overpower him. Okay, a man has such an advantage, even a smaller statue of a guy, you know, and a small even without the pistol, he could have man handled me. Yeah, and you would have had to get to the door and open the door and unlock the door. In your finite skills when with people don't know this, um, just from training. I know this, but you lose your finite motor skills when you're under extreme stress and so your heart, you know, all your bloods go into your vital organs and trying to just keep you alive and well, so like something as simple as dialing a phone becomes almost impossible in extreme situations. Imagine trying to unlock a door, right and fumble and well he Um, he laid on a bed. There were two beds in the room. Um, I jumped, you know, he laid in one, so I sat on the other one. I turned the TV on, Uh said football kind of thing, just I think to have noise. Uh.

36:50 And you know, I don't know, I'm I'm I'm just fidgetine. Yeah, he took my purse, He went all through my purse, my you know, he studied my driver's license. Um, which later you know would come to pan out because he contacted us after all was said and done. Um. You know that was back in the day when like your checks still had like your phone number. So he did make a mental note of all of that information. He took my shoes from me. Um, you know, and you prepare for what you know, you feel like it's coming.

37:30 And even that is at that moment in time, it's just a survival skill, you know. That's that was not even again. I'm just I need time, I need time. So rape was on your mind, just to put it out there raps on your mind. Yeah, well you know he makes you run a hotel room. Yeah, we're gonna be stuck there. You know, it's three o'clock in the afternoon and you got to spend the night. Yeah, so, um, that is um. But you put it, your brain, puts it in a place like you compartmentalize it on this Yeah, and it's almost like, oh, I need a drink of water. Well, this is probably going to happen, so you just that's how you survive. Yeah, that's that's the mentality of survival. You know.

38:19 As it panned out, as he was laying there, I felt like whatever drug he had hit on prior to this incident, I kind of felt like there was a moment where he was starting to come down from that high. And so then it became let's keep everyone calm because I was at a place emotionally if I felt like he just blinked for longer than a nanosecond, I had decided running was a better option. Could at least try and avoid the shot or maybe he would miss. Um, that was still better than drowning. Yeah, you know whatever, he's still talking about this river and picking up something. UM, and at some point you got to get rid of me, okay. And I guess once you pick something up, you have my car, you've taken my money. Now he took all the cash.

39:27 Um M, yeah, yeah, no, no drowning, you know. Um, I didn't want to float down a river and blow up, you know, like a dead cow for my family to you know, receive me like that. Um so I did. That became the new plan. And I tried to stay as still uh and quiet um. And there was a moment and at that moment, barefoot, I hit the door and I could outrun any Kenyon you saying Bolt had nothing on Stacy Polozola that day.

40:07 Nothing. We were on the second floor. So wait, he's laying on the bed as he dozing off. He dozed, so he never even had the chance to get at you. He dozed, He dozed, and I wasn't waiting for him to take a nap. Yeah. And I hurdled a flight of stairs where the staircase was is where the little circle drive. Somebody was driving in when I hurdled that, I never hit a stair I opened the back door of their car and dove in. Isn't that weird because it's a stranger, another stranger, and you dove in I did, and basically kidnapped them. Yeah, it was a reverse kidnapping. Hit the floorboard and by at that point, everything that you have kept then for eighteen hours pleases just lose it. And I was screaming for them to go, go go, he has a gun, go and bless their little hearts, they just hit the gas and took off. Who were they tell me what, who's in the car? What does it look like? It is a young couple, A little young couple. UM, guy and his little wife. UM, who I think, we're just traveling, you know through Uh. They went about a mile down the street and called nine one. UM. Swat

41:38 team showed up. Um, and you know, they went back to the hotel, bust through the door and he was asleep. He was asleep. He was asleep. And they they told me that, um, they had to bring him. I had to make a positive ID. So they put me in the back seat of the cruiser, uh, front seat of the cruiser. Police cruiser, brought me back to the parking lot and they walked him out on the balcony. I made the ID at that moment, and at the same time, I'm sitting in the police car. They are outside of the car dealing with SWAT and whatever. And it was at that moment over the police radio, I heard the the official um that you were found no, that suspected kidnapping, kidnapping and like deemed um dangerous dangerous. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And it was like this outer body like is that what just happened? Yeah? I never kind of conceptualized what was happening

43:15 until I heard it third party on the police scanner. Uh. It was very surreal, just out of body experience because it's you never think what's happening to you is what what's happening? This isn't happening, Well you don't or you don't even realize it's happening. If that, you know. And I think that state of hyper alertness that UM a victim goes through, you really are it. I don't really call it an outer body experience, but it's part of what's needed to keep you able to function. Uh, you know, and and I do in the heat of when that car was pulling off, I do vaguely. You know. Remember it's like you're looking down and you're seeing you in this situation. Uh, you know, the brain does a lot of crazy things. Listen. I think I've told this story before and I know exactly what you're saying because and I'm not going to go into the long story, but a guy took me off on a four wheeler and I did not want to be on the four wheeler with them, and we ended up wrecking and it was horrible, and I was running back in the darkness through the woods, barefoot, running from my life. But I remember it from above, and it's bizarre. I remember it from above. How

44:46 do you remember something from a different viewpoint? Well, but you do, you do. And I think that is UM. Like I said, when the brain is you know, UM, your adrenaline is at such a level. UM, and I did. I watched it, and that that piece went away when I passed that park that I was so fearful of because that's really where I thought he was going to take me and rape me. Well we got past that, UM. So then it was just the hyper alertness UM. And we went to UM the police station in Mississippi, in Mississippi, UM, right outside of Jackson, and I was in a little room and you know, I was told to write my statement. You know, kind of thing. And how do you write? Where do you well, it's like the essay of your life. Yeah, you just start and it's just all over. Well, then I heard screaming, shouting. He had gotten away from the police in the station. In the station and hit the door. Oh my god, just again went into one of those moments.

46:07 And there was a closet and I got in the closet just you know. Um, I never got to see him after that, but I think the police they were not happy. I'm sure they he tried to get away from them. Yeah. Um, so there was an escape charge that um they good had on there. Also, Um, what was he charged with in your situation? It was kidnapping, aggravated kidnapping, arm robbery, um, because he had the gun when he took all your stuff. Right, Uh, that was a third charge assault Maybe there wasn't a There was a battery charge. But then that did he ever hit you? He pushed He just pushed me around. He never really hit me hit me. That got changed, um because he was a three peat felon. Oh, habitual offender, yes, nice, so habitual offender law in Louisiana's three strikes you're out just so you know. So if you commit three felonies, um, usually it's about time served and what type of charge is If you have felonies or drug charges and they are you know, they carry heavier weight, then we'll throw your ass away in Louisiana, we will lock you up and say bye bye.

47:32 Yeah. So was he he was charged under habitual offender or I think that's what they had changed it to. That's why the third because there was a third charge. Um, you know that that occurred. Um, you know, but my parents were called at that point to you know, come up there, my family, and they did. They you know, drove up there to uh, you know, to drive me home. What did that feel like whenever you saw your daddy or your mama? It? Wow, you know, you're just given what happened in our neighborhood with Donna.

48:15 Nobody expected that outcome. I'm sitting here looking at you, if I'm being one hundred percent honest right now, I'm sitting here looking at you go and you should be a little set of bones in a woods in the woods somewhere, never to be seen again. And I don't mean that ugly. I mean that that's what happens. And you walked away or you ran away. You ran away and jumped a flight as he ran away. But like a canyon, get it girl, I'm like so proud and like, you know, miss Stacy just y'all know she's she's a bit of a mentor to me because she's the one who started my criminal justice program. Everyone knows I teach criminal justice, but I didn't know this when we were starting it up. And what a there's a little more to go. Hey, let's do a criminal justice program. I bet in your mind mind it is it is, um, you know, And and we went, um, you know, you fast forward, there's there's a trial, uh, you know, and that happened pretty quickly. Was that it was that um um scary jarring to be back in a room with him. Yeah, well, and um, did you dread it or were you looking forward to him getting his minute?

49:31 You know, I don't know if it is it's it's not a dread and I don't know if it's a to get a minute. It's when you're a victim in those initial uh, in that initial time frame, you you don't want because you can't forget. You don't want it to be forgotten. Yeah, you know, uh, because even when it's off of the news, you know, the news is not reporting you know that they snatched the little school counselor from Denham Springs anymore. Um, life kind of goes back to normal. Your life doesn't go back to normal, kind of like a death.

50:15 People've experienced a death. You don't move on, you move forward, but it doesn't go away. And it is Um. So the pieces, you know, the the extradition back to Louisiana, that that's a piece. Then the pre trial you know, that's you know, the arraignment, that's pieces pieces. And then you do finally get to you know that that trial, which was a two day trial. Um, and I felt like I was pretty like okay, because I'm just gonna go tell you know exactly what happened. Um. And then he decided to represent himself. Oh my god, he's one of those yeah, so and very verse and that's that is a perverse. I don't know that if that's the word for, but that's another control tactic to get to ask you questions, to talk to you.

51:10 So that that that was very, very difficult. Um, that shouldn't even be. It was difficult because, um, one my boys were present, and how old were they then? My oldest was in the ninth grade and the youngest was sixth grade. Can we do a quick humble brag? Yes, tell tell my listeners what your sons are today. The oldest is um uh emergency um uh doctor, runs the largest trauma center in Miami, and the youngest is the assistant Attorney General for the state of Washington. Get out of town, graduated at Harvard. So you know, the little public school children can do great things. Um. Indeed, and they got a survivor of a mama. Um what you know they do? And I you know, I think that played obviously, that played a role in the development of h professions and personalities. Um. You know, they too have very much strong work ethic. Um clearly kind of no nonsense on They'll be the first one to tell you. You know, there's consequences for everything. Um.

52:29 But um so yeah. So it was difficult to be in a courtroom, you know, with your family and then him questioning you like like he should even have the nerve. I would be so indignant, it was, Oh my god, I'd be so m Yeah, my family, You're lucky that I'm over here, son, because my family struggled with that um and you know, my personality is just what you just described. But again at the moment, you know, I probably cried at the very beginning and cried all the way through, as you had every right to. You know, I feel like you could victimize again there. I know that's I mean, I understand that's the way it works, but I just right, that is sick.

53:21 Do do was a struggle, you know, Yeah, And you always have to be the good the good people have to always be the composed ones, have to be the ones to turn the other cheek, have to be the ones that have to keep it together while these numbnuts are out there doing whatever it is that they do and constantly getting the benefit of the doubt or getting the they get all the freedoms to behave the way they want. It's just frustrating to me. Hence hence this podcast. Yeah, you know, well, and it's it's uh, you know, there's lessons to be learned, and most people learn things once they experience. And I'm guilty so like everybody's dreads, you know, when you get that little summons in the mail to go serve jury duty, well, all of a sudden I realized how important it was to have good people, good selection on my jewelry pool, you know, And we watched that piece kind of thing. So I don't complain about that, even though they never picked me, now because I've been a victim, so they never picked me. Just to go off on a sidetrack here, I got jury duty summons is three times, and all three times it was a big murder case that was supposed to be coming up.

54:45 And I know that's weird to say I was excited, but I was ready for some jury duty. I was ready to hear the evidence and to weigh it and to measure it. And every freaking time in South Louisiana a hurricane hit and I never got to do it. Right, I'm ready to do my civic duty, Miss Stacy. Yeah, so he gets he gets convicted. Correct. Was it a quick return? Uh? It was? It was, yes, probably within the hour. Oh yeah, it came back pretty fast. And he got what uhum, I want to say, he got eighty years. Um are two charges of party to be served concurrently.

55:30 Uh that kind of sucks. I would have rather consecutively without um, without parole. Um. Now that has changed, you know, given the new UM legislation of people over a certain age who have served twenty or more years. Because I was actually contact at last February and he had been given a parole date, you a hearing, a date for a hearing. I feeled out that paperwork. UM I wanted to be you know, present for that.

56:10 UM. Now I have to be really straight up honest with y'all. I would not have voted, you know, or I was there was not going to be victim opposition. I was giving that to the the experts at the prison who have watched him over the last twenty three years. One thing that I did learn and I had to do this for myself because I didn't know why I was a victim, Like what did I do that caused me to go through that? UM? I really struggled with that in the year a year, two years following that incident. The only way I could get those answers was to go into the prison myself. And so in two thousand and six, I went with my priest, met with the warden and started a Catholic faith based organization within Amend's prison. Nice because I needed to figure out what these people do that get them there? For my own selfish reason because I'm trying to figure out why this happened to me because he never gave

57:43 in trial, did he ever give a reason. He never woke because he didn't have to because he was his own little attorney, right kind of thing. So I needed that for me. And what I have found out because I now been in the prison for the last seventeen years, I've gone in twice a week and worked with these gentlemen. Drugs do crazy things to people. There's an element of mental illness that, oh yeah, can't be explained or fixed when it comes to criminal behavior. But probably the most, I don't know the most what I didn't expect was the realization that when people come in a crime, and I'm not just talking about him just in general as a young person, sometimes not always, sometimes twenty five years later, they're not really the same person. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm not the same person from ten years ago. So, you know, when the parole thing came up, which really caught me off guard because I really wasn't kind of thinking about that because, you know, not I was not familiar that the legislation had had allowed that. You know, I decided at that

59:15 moment that I would let the prison officials, you know, had he educated himself, had he learned a skill, had he been exemplar in behavior, because I do come from a background where I do believe that every life matters. Even if you're serving, and I work with this gentleman now serving life sentences, your life still matters, and you can make a difference even there. But apparently he could not behave long enough. I'm so shocked to even have his hearing, So it'll be another two years, I guess before he would have that opportunity. You put the responsibility on him based in a sense, actually you didn't. So you didn't give away your power. You gave it all to him in a sense and said, hey, your behavior will speak for itself. And it did. I did. I did. I, like everyone, I believe in second chances, I really do. Well.

1:00:24 There was now something I was doing a little research. I want people to know too that this um and I'll be brief here. I won't go into this in depth. But I was curious about him because I wanted to try to get to know him. But this happened, you know, in the nineties. And then there was another instance and around the eighties that he was involved in. And I didn't have a whole lot at the time that we're recording right now on this. I do plan on continue to look because I'm interested in this. But did you know would it shock you listeners if I told you that there was a cold case homicide in the eighties of a female who interestingly enough, it involves your kidnapper. So it happened, it says roughly four decades ago. On November fifth, nineteen eighty, the Rapids Parish Sheriff's Office received a complaint related to the discovery of skeletal remains near Highway twenty eight West in the Gardener area. Blah blah, blah goes forward, and it says that all they have was the skeletal remains, and so they sent those to LSU for they're missing and unidentified persons known as the Faces Lab, where they recreate the faces. And actually I'll post a picture of this for the for the viewers so they can see this recreation. But it had remained unsolved, and then they it says detectives. Once they did the faces recreation, detectives were able to identify Leo Laird, who was sixty four and wouldn't you know Gary Joseph Hayman, who was fifty four, both of Oakdale,

1:02:00 as suspects. And they identified this victim as Donna Gail Brazel, and she was eighteen years old at the time of her death and had been residing in the Alexandria Pineville area. And so they said enough probable cause was established and warrants were granted for laird An Hayman's arrests in these first degree murders, first first degree murder, first degree rape, and aggravating aggravated kidnapping. There is a a behavior pattern, it seems with this guy. I know he had. At the time of my incident, he had only been out of Angola for three months. He had served seven years of a fifteen year sentence for arm drops and he got out on good time. I don't know what he got out on, So just for my listeners, good time. It's kind of where, you know, if usually the word usually can mean a lot of things, but just in jest, if they give you ten years for every day you behave, it's kind of like they'll dock a day off.

1:03:07 And so that's why a lot of times they'll spend half their time. There is on their quote unquote good time. And when I worked in the prison system, we could take away good time as a penalties, which they'd spend longer in prison type thing. We don't get an extra day for being good? Why don't they get a day taken off, you know, for being normal? But it just struck me when I looked at this, because it is kidnapping, rape, and homicide. Lucky enough, you're strong enough person and smart enough to be calm collected, and then you saying bolted out of there because he only got the kidnapping on you. And I'm thankful because I appreciate our time and our friendship. Absolutely, don't take that from me.

1:03:51 It is um, you know, it's it's still surreal when you, you know, look back, um. But as a survivor, you have to look at how did it change your life? And you have to look for the things that that are better as a result of what you experienced. I am stronger, I am very much a different person, but at the same time, I am probably more aware and hypersensitive to I can walk in my house now twenty years later, until if someone turned that bottle of water m because you know, you left it absolutely and so I am keenly aware and I have a grave appreciation for m for my surroundings and you know, and I recognize my mortality now, yeah, you know very much. So I'm trying right now with my fourteen year old daughter to explain to her that we are not um M. I want to go see what it is.

1:05:04 I know, and you need to tell them they need to knock, not like they're the police. You want me to finish. Yeah, okay, So we're gonna wrap up right about now. I wouldn't being rude. Um. I always have some kind of little snarky, little sassy ending or something. So I was trying to figure it out. But I think I'm gonna do something more on the sweet side for you. All Right, you're ready? Uh boom? Oh wait what were you saying when he said boom? It's okay, I don't remember, oh your life mortality a fourteen year ol daughter, that's the list, all right ready and boom Jim. Yeah, right now, I'm actually trying to explain this to my fourteen year old daughter that you're not um you know, that mortality is real, that you were not invincible, and she's got that light of a young person who doesn't who hasn't faced any serious trauma or you know, horrificness I guess you would say in life. And so she's she's still young, you know. Well I wasn't that young, and I still didn't listen, so, um, you know, well, let me tell you this. I'm glad you made it out. Thank you, and I want you to know that you are I look up to you because I do. I think a lot of you, and um, I really appreciate you taking the time to come and see me.

1:06:30 I hope everybody listen listening enjoyed this episode as much as I did because we had never spoken to this you know story before with each other, and you know, I just want to say life is tough, but my darling, so are you