March 22, 2026

DTL -The Interviews: Warden Burl Cain

DTL -The Interviews: Warden Burl Cain
Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
Castro podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconCastro podcast player iconRSS Feed podcast player icon
Season 9

In this episode of DTL, the legendary Burl Cain, former Warden at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola and current commissioner of the Mississippi Department of Corrections sits down with Kelly Jennings for an exclusive interview on the conditions inside the prison for DTL and her personal recollections of the serial killer.

Hosted by Kelly Jennings and produced by the experts at Envision Podcast Productions.

For Media or Advertising Inquiries 
Envisionpodcaststudios@gmail.com

WEBVTT

1
00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:12.839
In the sultry heat of Louisiana, where the bayous whisper

2
00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:16.079
secrets and the air hangs heavy with the scent of magnolias,

3
00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:20.480
a darkness lurked beneath the surface. Dereck Todd Lee was

4
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:23.199
a man whose charm masked a sinister reality.

5
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:24.679
He was a monster.

6
00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.039
Lee, a seemingly ordinary man with a disarming smile, led

7
00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:31.559
a double life that would unravel in a series of

8
00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:34.200
murders in the capital city of Baton Rouge and the

9
00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:38.280
surrounding areas. As the first reports of disappearances and murders

10
00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:42.119
began to surface, South Louisiana was thrust into a nightmare,

11
00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:46.000
igniting a frantic search for answers. The true horror was

12
00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:49.280
just beginning, and the hunt for a serial killer eventually

13
00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:52.000
known by just three letters, would reveal not only the

14
00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:55.520
depths of Dereck Todd Lee's depravity, but also the resilience

15
00:00:55.560 --> 00:00:58.479
of those most affected by his evil acts, the families

16
00:00:58.759 --> 00:00:59.759
and the survivors.

17
00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:01.320
This is DTL.

18
00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:12.359
Hey y'all's kJ here back with another episode, and this

19
00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:14.680
is going to be a special one that I If

20
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:16.519
you're watching me podcast right now, you're going to see

21
00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:19.319
me Grinn and ear to ear, because I will tell

22
00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:21.439
you that I think I have one of my heroes

23
00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:24.560
in the studio with me today. Of course this is

24
00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:27.480
going to be an extension of the Derek Todd Lee series,

25
00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:31.480
but I have the man, the myth, the legend, Warden

26
00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:34.200
Burl Kane in the studio with me today, and I

27
00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:37.799
could not be prouder that you accepted my invite.

28
00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:41.560
So I want to thank you.

29
00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:44.640
Yes, sir, I learned a lot from you in my

30
00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:47.480
time in the prison, and also Warden Fonteau, who was

31
00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:50.640
under your stead as well. And I just think that

32
00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:54.719
I've worked under a lot of people in supervisor positions,

33
00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:56.519
and I would say that yours. Even though it was

34
00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:58.159
a short while and we didn't have a lot of

35
00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:03.000
one on one, it was a very impactful experience and

36
00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:06.719
I learned a lot about leadership, especially under when you're

37
00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:09.400
in control of people who aren't very nice and you know,

38
00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:12.080
have been locked up for doing you know, not for

39
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:15.080
missing church. And I think that your approach was probably

40
00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:18.800
one of the most I don't want to say underappreciated,

41
00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:22.639
but I think the general public probably didn't understand it.

42
00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:25.360
But having been behind the wire with you, I think

43
00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:27.719
that approach was amazing. And the growth right because you

44
00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:31.280
brought religion into the prison. Is that correct, like as

45
00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:33.439
far as building the churches and allowing all of that,

46
00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:34.560
is that correct?

47
00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:38.280
Right? Because the moral people don't rob and steal. So

48
00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:40.960
to rehabilitate and you can do correction under which means

49
00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:44.479
correct deviate behavior, then you have to change them the

50
00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:46.840
way they think and so forth. So morality is a

51
00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:51.479
key factor in rehabilitation. So then morality in a job,

52
00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.759
you'll usually have success and when you get out because

53
00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:59.400
the felony keeps you getting a job. Many times we said,

54
00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.639
if you don't have a job and you don't have skill,

55
00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:04.360
and you don't have any morals, you're just gonna come back

56
00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.960
to prison again. And so therefore that means it's another victim, gotcha,

57
00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:09.919
And that's what's bad, all right?

58
00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:12.919
Awesome, So with that in mind, obviously we're going to

59
00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:17.479
jump into Derek Toddley and that he was brought into

60
00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:23.479
your facility and what were your immediate priorities.

61
00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:23.960
In managing him?

62
00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:25.599
And I know, maybe we could go back to where

63
00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:27.639
you picked him up and he had to be brought

64
00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:28.199
to the prison.

65
00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:29.400
Can you kind of talk us through that?

66
00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:32.520
Yeah, it's really kind of a different situation with him.

67
00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.479
And he wasn't brought there. We brought him there because

68
00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:39.719
he was in West Bounderige Parish. And so the court

69
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.680
the trial, and so the judge and the sheriff wanted

70
00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:45.800
us to be at the trial. At the sentencing, he

71
00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:47.840
said that he was sent us. They wanted us to

72
00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:51.120
take control of him right there in the courthouse. So

73
00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.800
when he goes into the courthouse, we're there already. So

74
00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.199
they bring him in the courthouse and he's all legged

75
00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:59.039
up and chained and so forth, and he's hollowing to

76
00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:01.879
the press. I'll talk to you all when I come out,

77
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.080
I'll let y'all know. I'm gonna say all this is

78
00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:06.639
this and this and this and this and run his

79
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:10.560
head like he did. And so he comes into the

80
00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:12.840
courthouse and we all in the court room and the

81
00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:18.360
judge sentences him to death. And so immediately then we

82
00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:20.879
had our tack team there. They stepped up and took

83
00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:24.240
him in the room next door to the right outside

84
00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.319
of the judge's chamber, and so and there he was

85
00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:29.600
being smart enough, But then what we did is we

86
00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.759
just stripped him all his clothes, take him, stripped him

87
00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:35.759
totally naked, and then we put on our clothes on him.

88
00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:38.680
And then I told him this one thing. I said,

89
00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:40.759
you better not stumble with your lips when you come

90
00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:45.079
out here because you might hit your head. And so

91
00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:48.319
then one day so then it was all business. We

92
00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:51.720
wouldn't let him talk and shut up, be quiet. And

93
00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:53.879
then when he put him in the elevator to come down,

94
00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:56.839
was on the second floor. They just walked him straight

95
00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:58.879
into the elevator. There was one on each side of

96
00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:01.199
everyone behind him, and he just put his head right

97
00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:04.360
up against the wall of the elevator with his forehead

98
00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:07.439
against the wall where he just put pen to the

99
00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:10.920
elevator wall. And then we come down, come out. He

100
00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:13.240
knew not to say a word. So then we brought

101
00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:15.079
him out and there was a van. Our van was

102
00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:17.800
rapped by the door when we came out, and so

103
00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:20.879
they just almost threw him in the van. And we

104
00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.000
got a little criticism say that we handed him a

105
00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:25.839
little bit rough, but the whole point was to show

106
00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:28.920
him that this was not foolishness. We were really at

107
00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:32.439
what we said, and you come into another world and

108
00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:35.160
you're going to do what we say. And so he

109
00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:37.680
went he left there with that message, and so then

110
00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:42.120
he got to prison. We did not abuse him, but

111
00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:44.879
it was all business. He shut up, sit down, and

112
00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:45.439
be quiet.

113
00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.240
Interestingly, people may criticize that, but that's exactly how he

114
00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:52.360
treated his victims and so and then they got a

115
00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:53.199
whole lot of abuse.

116
00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:54.279
He didn't get that.

117
00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:57.279
He just got the you know, sit down, shut up,

118
00:05:57.360 --> 00:05:59.279
and do what we say portion of it. And so

119
00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:01.240
for someone to to size that, I think is a

120
00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:03.480
bit of a stretch considering.

121
00:06:04.199 --> 00:06:07.199
Yeah, and he was even closer to us, he might realize,

122
00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:09.399
because one of his victims was the niece of one

123
00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:14.240
of our correctly one of our wardens. Wardens and uh anyway,

124
00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:17.480
but we treated him, you know, constitutionally and so forth.

125
00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:19.160
It was pretty interesting.

126
00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:23.800
So whenever y'all did pick him up, I know it was.

127
00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:26.079
It may have been irrelevant, but I'm just curious. So

128
00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:30.199
are you provided any of his behavioral history as far

129
00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:32.839
as what his nuances and all that we're in the jail,

130
00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:34.920
so that you could be better prepared for how what

131
00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:36.959
how he may behave in the prison setting or did

132
00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:39.360
it not really matter you were going to figure it out.

133
00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.160
Okay, we didn't get it. They didn't provide us anything.

134
00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:45.120
We didn't ask these ours and we took him got it?

135
00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:48.800
And uh it's like we as we his mom and

136
00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.560
his dad, and he going to do what we say.

137
00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:52.120
I got it.

138
00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:54.279
I love that. I have to do that because you

139
00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:55.759
have to have or you have to be good as

140
00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:56.759
they let you, mean as.

141
00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.959
They make good as they let you, but mean as

142
00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:00.519
they make you.

143
00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:03.800
That's right, burger king. They canna have it their way.

144
00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:08.759
I love that. That's great. You know, yeah, well we did.

145
00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:11.199
Because if you were good, and we wanted good because

146
00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:13.480
we didn't want to have to have all the chaos.

147
00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:15.279
So if you'd be a right and be good and

148
00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.519
we read you with dignitine respect, but if you weren't,

149
00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:20.800
then we didn't. And it's light raising kids. Then what's

150
00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:24.879
what happened with parents? When parents have no discipline? What

151
00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:27.199
do they expect? I mean, you know, he's gonna They're

152
00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:29.839
gonna run wild because they don't know any different. Right.

153
00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:31.759
It's kind of like in in the school settings on

154
00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:33.439
a micro level. And I had to keep bringing up school,

155
00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.959
but it's the same concept because they run wild in

156
00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:39.639
the general setting that most people, most kids can acclimate to.

157
00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:41.759
Then we pull them out and we put them in

158
00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:43.720
one of the disciplinary school settings and then it's like

159
00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:46.399
they thrive because they get the structure, they get the

160
00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:47.639
point that you've got to get.

161
00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:51.319
Yeah, and so home failed and then they wonder why

162
00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:53.360
my kids so bad? Well, why were you such a

163
00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:54.079
terrible parent?

164
00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:56.680
Yeah, maybe you have any discipline? Look in the mirror.

165
00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:01.600
So, considering he was classified and I had to go

166
00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.720
to death row, rehabilitation isn't really the goal at that point,

167
00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:06.680
would you agree with that?

168
00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.560
No, we want him to it's important because then he

169
00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:14.920
behaves better, so then we don't have the problem with him.

170
00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:17.480
And so so we want him to be good and

171
00:08:17.560 --> 00:08:20.279
do right. But we're gonna give you a chance to

172
00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:22.040
do that. But if you don't, you don't And we

173
00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:24.279
don't want to escapes out of death row. We had

174
00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:27.000
four escape from our death row and that was a

175
00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:29.480
whole nother story. You know how they did it and

176
00:08:29.480 --> 00:08:31.920
how they got out, and how we caught them, and

177
00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.159
we caught him. They left it like twelve o'clock. At nine,

178
00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:39.519
we had them back, caught it at three o'clock. We

179
00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:42.679
had a angola. We had a great chase team. You

180
00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:46.360
couldn't We never lost anybody we didn't catch Now, I

181
00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:49.519
got one off of golf course in Needles, California, and

182
00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:53.679
I got one in the house and in Texas, but

183
00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:57.759
we just never stopped chasing you. And so because they

184
00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:00.440
had to know we're going to find you, so the

185
00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:04.960
deterrent to escape. But on death row we couldn't afford escape,

186
00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:07.919
so we made sure that we did everything right and

187
00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:11.000
correct and good, but had complete control of them.

188
00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:17.440
So in terms of his presence at the prison, were

189
00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:20.960
there any Obviously there's always safety concerns, but was there

190
00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:26.200
an elevated concern in any way for the female officers

191
00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.799
that were there. Was there any special discussion about Look,

192
00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:32.600
you know, he he doesn't like women, you know.

193
00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:35.600
Uh. The best warden we ever had a death row

194
00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:39.960
was Angie Norwood, and she was really, really awesome. She's very,

195
00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:43.240
very intelligent. She's still in the business today, but she

196
00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:47.200
was over death row for about six years and she

197
00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:50.200
was in control. So, no, he was. He was in

198
00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.759
that cell and they brought him out only in leg

199
00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:56.200
irons and handcuffed, and uh, we had a camera on

200
00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:58.759
him all the time, which he did not like. But

201
00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.919
that's just tough because we had to know he was there.

202
00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:05.519
We were not gonna and I'll let him a chance

203
00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:06.799
to get away from us.

204
00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:10.000
So what would you describe his behavior like while he

205
00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:10.919
was incarcerated?

206
00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:13.000
What was his what was he like?

207
00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:15.879
He was cocky in the night, he did it. So

208
00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:19.159
we'd have these conversations. I'd say, you know, you the

209
00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:22.720
serial killer because he quit having serial killing after you left,

210
00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:25.080
after we got you in here. He said, well, I'm

211
00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:27.720
not a serial killer. They lied with the DNA. I said, well,

212
00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:29.960
they can't lie with the DNA. He'd have to be you.

213
00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:33.919
He said, oh no, they put somebody else in DNA there. Sure,

214
00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:37.360
I said it was you and so. But the main

215
00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:39.559
thing was there's no more serial killing. Well, he said,

216
00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:42.600
he went underground. He's not doing anymore. So I take

217
00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:46.759
the wrap. We'd have this conversation back and forth. Not

218
00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:49.960
always granted himn like when I tell him and I

219
00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.159
know Miss Burrito. One time she didn't want him to

220
00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:55.639
we were having ribs for Fourth of July. She didn't

221
00:10:55.639 --> 00:10:57.279
want him to have any ribs. I said, well, I

222
00:10:57.320 --> 00:11:03.120
gave him squirrel ribs. Ho on Uh Anyway, she liked that.

223
00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:06.840
So because she and I had conversation that also on

224
00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:09.000
this very paced because they won't know where he was.

225
00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:11.840
I mean, he look what he did. Look at Pam

226
00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:13.960
Kennimore and look he killed her, and what he did

227
00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.519
to her. Yeah, and he was so brutal, and yet

228
00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:19.759
he would act so normal and be so normal, and

229
00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:21.120
you could see how he would do it.

230
00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:24.120
So I had a listener, matter of fact, reach out

231
00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:25.879
to me because in one of the episodes, I mentioned

232
00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:28.399
how he almost had a dumbness about his look. He

233
00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:30.720
didn't look I don't know why we put what we

234
00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:32.960
think a serial killer would look like, but he didn't

235
00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:34.960
look like this scary monster.

236
00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:36.679
He almost looked boyish in a way.

237
00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.159
And she said to me online, this listener said, you

238
00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:43.159
know it's scary because this listener was not a fan.

239
00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:45.639
She was afraid of men in general because of some

240
00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:47.559
assaults that had happened to her as a child. And

241
00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:49.519
she said, what's scary is that he would not have

242
00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:52.639
scared me. You didn't know I'm alarmed.

243
00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:55.320
Well, he normally would have on his sharp pass It

244
00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:58.720
looked like a delivery guy and he would knock on

245
00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:00.559
the door and get you to open door, and as

246
00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:01.960
soon as you did, he hit you in the face

247
00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:04.960
with his fist down and knocked you down. He had

248
00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:08.399
no chance hardly to to you know, to defend yourself

249
00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:10.960
at all. And then it was on could you come

250
00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:14.279
in the house and the kitchen, the knives and so forth,

251
00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.159
and he just was. It was horrible killer.

252
00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:24.120
Were there any obvious or anything that any instances that

253
00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:27.480
stood out where he tried to be manipulative or play

254
00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:31.600
a game against staff that they would catch one too,

255
00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:32.240
that you know of.

256
00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:35.720
We didn't give him my chance. We watched him like

257
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:38.159
a hawk, and he was on one tier and he

258
00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:41.039
was at the very first cell. And when we tour,

259
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:45.200
we'd go down the cell and uh, I remember John Piper,

260
00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:48.159
the theologian, he he was, he went down. There s

261
00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.519
a lot of a lot of people that toured, and

262
00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:54.159
we were pretty wide open to tour because there was

263
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.039
nowhere you could really couldn't go because we wanted to

264
00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:00.639
be normal and with prison. But we were so really

265
00:13:00.679 --> 00:13:03.720
really safe, and we didn't put up with you. He

266
00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.759
couldn't he couldn't talk or you know, to anybody, or

267
00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:12.559
be making any faces or be so right. So he

268
00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:15.759
need not to do that, you know, we wouldn't have

269
00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:17.159
put over with it got you.

270
00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:19.159
And so if someone's on death row for my listeners

271
00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.720
who don't know how if someone's on death row and

272
00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.639
lock down to that level, how do you discipline an

273
00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:30.320
inmate who's already at that level of of security.

274
00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:32.960
Well, I'm not going to tell all my secret, okay,

275
00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:34.279
but I can make you be good.

276
00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:34.840
You can.

277
00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:37.600
I got you, but you and you could take away

278
00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:40.600
privileges I guess, so to speak, and just windle away

279
00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:42.960
just like a kid, until they can make their experience

280
00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:44.200
as miserable as they want it to be.

281
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:46.639
We ran a constitution pro I don't want to imply

282
00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:49.840
that we didn't right, and we always did. But but

283
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.000
you know, we have a lot of tools that we

284
00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:54.919
can do to make you a right.

285
00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:58.159
Yeah and so, and you're not dealing with normal people

286
00:13:58.159 --> 00:13:59.039
that you're disciplining here.

287
00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.000
You're dealing with people that have gotten going to the extreme.

288
00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:04.840
And I think sometimes society misses that you can't discipline

289
00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:06.159
them like they didn't.

290
00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:09.000
They weren't animals though in there they were normal people.

291
00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.279
He would he would be normal like he was when

292
00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:12.919
you see him on the street, and like he was

293
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.559
deceiving the public, and like he would deceive his victims.

294
00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:19.639
He was, Uh, you wonder well is he crazy, Is

295
00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:21.320
he meddling and so forth? And I don't want to

296
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:23.720
go there because I don't really know, but I know

297
00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:25.960
he could be very normal, and he's very tall, and

298
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.679
he could deny and deny deny, which he always did

299
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.120
to me, never admitted it, but we never let him

300
00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:33.440
get away with denying it. We didn't never give any doubt.

301
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:35.919
Yeah you the zerio killer, Yeah you did it, you hear,

302
00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:37.600
and that's what you're gonna do. And you're gonna pay

303
00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:38.799
with your live at some point.

304
00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:43.759
So I I noticed so in some of my research

305
00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.240
I came up. I really wanted my people to understand

306
00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:49.720
my listeners, how the games are played, and how inmates

307
00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:53.440
do sometimes do things that in the public will scrutinize this,

308
00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:55.000
but we have you know, we're playing a catch up

309
00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:56.919
game here. We're having to figure out what the scam is.

310
00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:59.000
We're having to figure out what the what the game

311
00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.799
is that's being played. And one that made news, which

312
00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:04.840
you were there at this time, I'm sure, was that

313
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:10.240
he was supposedly selling artwork that he would draw and

314
00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:13.679
then try to make money basically off of this artwork.

315
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:15.039
And I know it made the news, and I even

316
00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:17.039
have some of the articles here and I'll post them

317
00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:18.919
on my Patreon for my listeners because I want y'all

318
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:21.240
to see what I'm referring to here. And the media

319
00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:23.039
jumped on it and said that, you know, he was

320
00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:25.919
going to make money off of his artwork. Obviously knee

321
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:28.360
jerk reaction from the public, like like, what what do

322
00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:30.639
you mean he's going to make money? But this was

323
00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.519
part of a game he was playing with a woman

324
00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:37.639
named Jessica. She put Geen as her last name. I

325
00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:40.000
have her real last name, but I won't say that

326
00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:42.960
because I'm a nicer person than that. But can you

327
00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.799
kind of discuss that type of situation about the art work?

328
00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:50.759
Yeah, there was. It just happened with death Row across

329
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:54.399
the country pretty much where that they were, and some

330
00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:56.600
people would pay a lot of money for their stuff

331
00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.480
because who they were and what they did, which really

332
00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.159
irritated us really bad. We hated it and we wasn't

333
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:03.960
going to put up with him making any money or

334
00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:06.919
anybody else. But not only us, but in you know,

335
00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:10.679
other prism across the country and of the states had

336
00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:12.840
the same attitude we did that you wasn't in here

337
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:14.840
to make money, you in here to pay the price

338
00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:16.960
for what you did, and we're not going to let

339
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:19.080
you do this. So it really made us put the

340
00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.399
kwaeitas on them for doing it. And so then we

341
00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:26.039
and I remember in talking with other warden in other

342
00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:28.879
states at the same time, we put the squeeze on

343
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:31.480
them that we cut all that out. But the public

344
00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:34.639
didn't like it either. I mean really the victims went

345
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.559
nuts over it because he wasn't in there to make money.

346
00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.759
But people would pay a lot of money for dumb

347
00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:44.679
stuff that they made anything off death row. It'd be like,

348
00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:49.320
you know, you just think of these different killers that

349
00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:52.080
were famous, bunding all them. They would pay a lot

350
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:54.639
of money for that stuff. And so we just had

351
00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:57.039
to shut it down and we did really well, and

352
00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.519
I think you know, we we found work came from

353
00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:02.799
and we just adopted it. We couldn't see anything out.

354
00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:03.639
We will let it go.

355
00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:06.240
And the joke, just so y'all know, my listeners, O,

356
00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:09.039
the joke was on this woman who was trying to

357
00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:12.400
get this art to sell it because there were some

358
00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:16.079
write ups and some disciplin disciplinary reports from with inside

359
00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:18.480
the prison that I've got right here in front of me.

360
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.160
And the joke is that this artwork. Derek Tidlee didn't

361
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:25.960
even draw it. Another inmate drew it and they both

362
00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:28.640
got in trouble. This inmate's name was Daniel Blank. He

363
00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:31.920
was another inmate. But they've got the report. He even

364
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:33.960
admitted it. He's the one who drew it. He was

365
00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:36.279
the one sending it out and it wasn't even Derek

366
00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:41.000
Tidley's drawings. So I think sometimes people I could not

367
00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:44.920
look at Lynn Marino or and Pace or any of

368
00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:47.839
those mothers and say, yeah, I just paid seven hundred

369
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:50.359
and fifty dollars for artwork from the guy that took

370
00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:52.799
the life from your daughter, and I think.

371
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:56.279
It's sick, terrible. So I'm glad we have laws that

372
00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:00.079
have changed that Daniel Blake.

373
00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:03.720
Caught because he won the fight at a casino, because

374
00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:06.519
he did what he right. He broke in these people's

375
00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:12.519
house and robbed them and done on and towards New Orleans.

376
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:16.079
And so then he takes the money and goes some

377
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:18.079
of the money and goes to the casino and then

378
00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:21.880
he wins the jackpot, huh on eighteen thousand dollars, And

379
00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:26.000
so then they put his picture on the wall, and

380
00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:28.279
so then some of the family came by and saw

381
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:30.839
the picture and recognized him and then called the police

382
00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:32.400
and how they caught him.

383
00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.599
No way, Jackpot, that is awesome. I love that, Like

384
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:38.839
that's all. Yeah, you go, boy, go ahead and put

385
00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:39.440
his picture up.

386
00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:41.160
Yeah, be happy you won.

387
00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:43.240
So to that note, since you brought that up, you

388
00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:45.720
know these inmates, you know their stories. It seems like

389
00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:49.960
you did you ever sit down and review jackets or

390
00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:52.880
files to get to know these guys better or how

391
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:54.160
did you what was your method?

392
00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:55.880
No?

393
00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:57.759
I just talked to him and we listened. We do

394
00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:00.440
when they came in. Who they were, Daniel Blank. He did.

395
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.000
It's a terrible crime. I think he killed these people,

396
00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:06.039
the older older man and woman, his wife, and he

397
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.599
would he was a small man. He would get in

398
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.720
their houses through the ventilator. It's like we learned a

399
00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:14.359
lot about him. It's like a serial rapist. What he did.

400
00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:16.279
He would get in the he would break in the

401
00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:19.079
car port and wait for you to come home, and

402
00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:22.720
you'd open your car port door and then you'd drive

403
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.440
your car in, you'd close it down, you'd be female,

404
00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:28.000
you'd get out. Well, you caught, because then he could

405
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:30.480
get in the house. Yeah, then he'd take you in

406
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.160
the house and then it'd be quitting time and eating

407
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.519
and he would do all his He would rape you

408
00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:38.960
in front of the family. He was terrible, and it'd

409
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.880
be at supper time when he was doing his victims

410
00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.079
and he had over one hundred victims and so h

411
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:47.240
But then he told us how he did it. You

412
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:49.599
know what he did. He'd always they tell you how

413
00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:53.559
they did it. Pretty common. He was a pretty good prisoner.

414
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.559
And I think you find he's gone, but you know

415
00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:58.759
he's there for life. He had the longest sentence. I

416
00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:02.680
think he had twenty two, three hundred years and nineteen

417
00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:04.960
life sentences of my mind right on him.

418
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:09.920
And I know you're a very religious man, have you

419
00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:13.039
when you've looked into the eyes of some of these guys,

420
00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:15.960
have you felt real true evil?

421
00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:22.759
Yeah, you can see it. I didn't feel it because

422
00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:24.960
they didn't bother me, but I could see there. I could.

423
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:27.119
I see you a bad dude. I'm gonna watch you

424
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:29.720
close and I'll let you get away from us. But

425
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:32.319
you know, we had a really good protocol and death row.

426
00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:35.839
We had that one escape and that was quite a

427
00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:39.400
complex deal they did, and there was some fire on

428
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:42.119
security part and that really started with the prat with

429
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:45.319
the preacher, because the preacher bought in cassette tapes, and

430
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:48.519
the cassette tape for blank they just had the tape

431
00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:51.519
across the front and then the tape was loaded ben

432
00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:54.720
Adrill tablets, and so they could put everybody to sleep

433
00:20:54.759 --> 00:20:59.160
on death rod because they were making sandwiches and give

434
00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:01.119
spread the sandwich which is out, and they were four

435
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:04.200
gonna leave, which four did, and so they would sit

436
00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:06.640
like sixteen on there, so twelve of them they put

437
00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:10.119
to sleep. They'd practice on them been Adrill tablets that

438
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:13.000
the preacher was bringing in the cassettes that he thought

439
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.880
he was doing a good thing to bring them religion.

440
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.039
So they were tricking him. Their family was on the street.

441
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:20.839
He was going to picking them up. And that's why

442
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:23.480
you can't bring anything in the prison because you don't

443
00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:26.279
know what you bring it all the sky. The escape

444
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:28.880
we had from the check mix where they had a

445
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:30.880
gun in it and they brought it in for Christmas

446
00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:33.039
and it made us men bought it so they'd have

447
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:35.640
their Christmas party and they were all happy. But they

448
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:38.599
had torn the label off the check mixed can and

449
00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:40.920
they had cut a hole in it and they put

450
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:44.200
the gun in it Saturday Night Special and then they

451
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:46.880
had put it all back together and put the label

452
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:49.319
back around it, and here they bring it in. So

453
00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:52.480
then they take him hostage and out they go, and

454
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.119
so then we got to chase them. That's when we

455
00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:58.519
dropped the flashlights from the helicopter to the chase team.

456
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:02.599
Could have got dark and running him and we caught him.

457
00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:05.720
And then one of the guy there was an escape.

458
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:07.519
One of them shot himself with a little low gun,

459
00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:09.240
killed himself. He didn't want to go back.

460
00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:12.039
That was in the museum, right, yep. I've seen that

461
00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:12.720
many a time.

462
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:16.839
And they cut the can and the air compressor tank,

463
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:18.599
one of them within the tank because it was three

464
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.559
in the car. So from that point on everybody had

465
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:24.480
to stop and get out of the car to sally Port,

466
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:27.079
which was good security, and we didn't have good security.

467
00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:29.359
You didn't have gotten out. So mistake.

468
00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:31.160
Just to clear it up for the people. So inmate

469
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:36.559
workers can move amongst the prison, so they're like freely

470
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:39.079
driving and moving amongst the prison, but they're still within

471
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:40.960
the prison walls so to speak.

472
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:42.839
I guess I don't know how to explain this people.

473
00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:44.359
I give it been there. I mean, he's eighteen thousand

474
00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:44.920
acres right.

475
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.440
So they had all these tools like they were going

476
00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:50.160
to go work, and then they cut out the air

477
00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:52.519
compressor and then climbed inside and that's.

478
00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:54.319
Yeah, they cut it out. One of them got inside

479
00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:56.720
because they had planned this escape for Christmas. It was

480
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.480
a Christmas party. They were having a Christmas party and

481
00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:02.000
the mainus guy, I brought a check mix. It's one

482
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:03.880
of the things they wanted to eat. So it was

483
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:06.039
in a can. It would be already be safe. They

484
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:09.039
opened the can, not knowing the can already been opened.

485
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:10.920
The side was cut open, but they didn't know it

486
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.839
because the label was back taped around it, and so

487
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:15.559
it was a pretty slick way to get the gun.

488
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.279
And they took him hostage. They took him out and

489
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:21.160
tied him to a tree. Thank god it didn't kill him,

490
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:24.720
and he was tied the tree in the woods. We

491
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:28.880
found him there. It was embarrassed.

492
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.119
But anyway, this is a six degrees of separation moment

493
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:35.039
for us. But my student the last year I was teaching,

494
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:39.000
his dad was the kid that skipped school to go

495
00:23:39.079 --> 00:23:42.720
hunting and had alerted to one of the escapes. He

496
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.319
saw the inmates run by. Yeah, and so how weird

497
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.839
you know that it was my student's dad that was

498
00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:50.960
the one that.

499
00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:54.400
We gave him an award. Yeah, yeah, he helped us.

500
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.079
He didn't realize that what he was he was in

501
00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:56.480
the woods.

502
00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:59.640
They say, kids that hunt and fish don't rob and steel. Well, hey,

503
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:02.519
kid that hunt and fish also skip school and catch

504
00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:04.319
inmates on the run too.

505
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.359
So that's pretty neat. So I was my question.

506
00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:09.279
My next question was going to be kind of about

507
00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:12.319
did you ever communicate with the victims' families? Obviously you've

508
00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:15.640
you've touched on that. How how did that work? They

509
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:17.640
would just call up to the prison and say I

510
00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:19.880
want to talk, and you'd say okay, and you'd jump

511
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:20.319
on the phone.

512
00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:25.480
Oh it was if it was here's a protest, and

513
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:27.759
I would bypass it all because I would make them

514
00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:30.039
come if they wanted to see the inmate. Inmate had

515
00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:31.920
to be worthy, first of all, he had to have

516
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:35.440
changed his life and be sorry and want to say

517
00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:38.240
I'm sorry for what I did. If he would ready

518
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:40.759
to admit it and be sorry, then we were ready

519
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:43.680
to talk, because then the victim could get some comfort

520
00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:48.200
from that and then get some answers but they had

521
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:51.279
to bring their pastor and we had to really search

522
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:53.440
them good because we didn't want them to get into

523
00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:56.400
the present and bring a gun, shoot him, know something, right,

524
00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:59.000
you know, get even with him, hurt him or something.

525
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:03.160
So anyway, protect both sides. And so we would let

526
00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:07.960
that happen because it gave closure to the victim many times,

527
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.000
and only one time or two it didn't work. But

528
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:14.400
that would because the inmate change his story and decided

529
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:17.480
he didn't do it. And it took about I think

530
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:21.359
maybe forty five seconds of that conversation for it to end,

531
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:24.839
because as soon as he said that, we slam the doors.

532
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:26.079
No way, you're out of here.

533
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.240
Yeah, because you're not going to revictimiz of somebody that's

534
00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:29.799
come here looking for something.

535
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:31.039
And then you flip the script.

536
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:32.839
Now I go to sit there and argue that you

537
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:35.720
didn't do it. I remember that it took it was

538
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:38.480
less than a minute. It was forty five seconds. We'd

539
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:42.480
ended right there. And so that was a rape case.

540
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.880
That was George Crawford, I don't know his name. It

541
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:46.960
was was it the twins?

542
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:48.839
It was in a vault. He came from a vault.

543
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:50.839
Fare Yeah, that's the one with a twin.

544
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:53.440
Yeah, so I've seen the farm a bunch. I used

545
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:54.519
it in my classroom, so.

546
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:55.960
I could quote you in it.

547
00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:59.000
Look at the toilet paper bill, forty thousand dollars just

548
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:03.480
for toilet paper this year, you would say that. But yeah,

549
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.359
so the power struggle there. We don't want there to

550
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:07.880
be a power struggle. If they want to be genuinely remorseful,

551
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:10.000
then you want to give that opportunity for both sides.

552
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:13.640
But obviously you're gonna take that away if.

553
00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:16.759
Restorative justice they call it. And it was quite a

554
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.000
process to go through it. I didn't like the process

555
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:22.000
because it was too long and it was just I

556
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:25.200
just believe in it too much. I liked my way better.

557
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:31.160
Of course, were you were there media requests to interview

558
00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:33.400
Lee or to talk to him behind bars that y'all

559
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:33.839
would get.

560
00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:37.160
We never let him just talk to the media because

561
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.440
what's going to happen is if you let them talk

562
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:41.240
to the media, they're going to say they're in us,

563
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:43.079
and the victims are going to hear it. They're going

564
00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:45.759
to be offended and heard, and it's not for them

565
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.960
to do that. They do that at a trial, and

566
00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:50.920
so they could say everything you want to say at

567
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:53.799
the trial. So when trial to the gavel town, that's

568
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:55.920
the end of it. You're not talking to the press

569
00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:59.039
anymore unless we got really control of it and for

570
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.480
some er of reason that's going to be positive and

571
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:05.680
good for the community. But you can't talk about your case.

572
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:06.319
I love it.

573
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:08.359
That's right, that's how it should be. You know, like

574
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:10.599
you said, I like to leave court. That was your time.

575
00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:13.119
And if you chose not to speak in court, so

576
00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:13.720
be it.

577
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:15.920
Not for much. You know, I'm gonna talk. And we

578
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.839
had a wonderful secretary, Richard Staler during my watch, because

579
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:22.200
he was a very probably one of the smartest man

580
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.680
I've ever known, but he had of an abundance of

581
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:28.519
common sense to go along with it, and so we

582
00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:32.640
were all on the same page and we knew his parameter,

583
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:35.039
he knew ours, and we never crossed the line with

584
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.000
him because he really was a boss. But he let

585
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:40.680
us have free will to do and change Angola because

586
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:43.519
the whole deal was for me going there. I didn't

587
00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:46.240
want the job because I knew it was a short

588
00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:49.720
career about four years. You get fired. You can't control

589
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:52.680
the place. But Staller told me, you go change it.

590
00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:56.519
Don't let it change you. And so with that little message,

591
00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:59.319
then he gave me the free will to change it.

592
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:01.119
I just had to keep it in the road and

593
00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:04.279
file the rule and fill the law. But I had

594
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:06.839
pretty much free will to run it anywhere I wanted

595
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:09.279
because I was trying to change it. It was wrecked,

596
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:11.680
and we did change it to probably one of the

597
00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:14.599
very best prisons in the country. We were there twenty

598
00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:18.240
one years, which is a historically long time to be

599
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:22.400
the warden of a prison, but it didn't take that long.

600
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:25.559
It took the seminary is what changed. It wasn't me,

601
00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:28.519
it wasn't us. It was a morality of the prison

602
00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:32.119
that they changed their moral when we built the churches

603
00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:36.599
and they started the seminary, then they changed their own culture.

604
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:41.079
It became a community that became pretty much his ends.

605
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.079
Like fish, you can't catch them all, but you deluded

606
00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:48.160
the people enough that were the non that were violent

607
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.200
with a non violence that you could change the culture.

608
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:53.480
And that's what we did. In the Rodeo helped a

609
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:56.519
lot too, because that was a big trust thing before

610
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:58.200
ever Rodeo. I don't know if they do it now,

611
00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:01.079
but we had a meeting with all of them. Both

612
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:04.039
prisons wouldn't put a thousand inmates in one place because

613
00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:06.319
they didn't think, oh, they're going to write. But they

614
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:07.920
all want to go to the rodeo. So we put

615
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:09.519
them in a rodeo rent and say this is how

616
00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:12.200
it's going to be this rodeo. Any one of y'all

617
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:16.279
mess up, it'll end this rodeo. But then what they

618
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:19.559
did is they really police themselves. Now there's eighty cameras there.

619
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:23.119
When I was there in the rodeo arena and we

620
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:25.680
had one of those buildings you may not realize, but

621
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:29.240
it's loaded with monitors and it's full of people monitoring.

622
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.319
They probably would have no more than four TVs they

623
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:36.839
had to watch, but we were watching. It's covered really well.

624
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:41.240
But what's most interesting is when the inmates would come

625
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:43.759
and tell us you got inmates and then a stand

626
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:46.839
with family and it'd come to say, you better look

627
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:50.000
at their walking cane by the fence, or you better

628
00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:52.799
look over here, you better look over there. They were

629
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:54.880
policing themselves.

630
00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:57.640
Which is genius because you give couldn't you give an

631
00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:00.240
outlet to people because and that's something that but I

632
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:02.880
think a lot of the average jos don't understand is

633
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:05.720
that control of a prison a lot of times is

634
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:08.559
because the inmates are letting it be controlled ext to

635
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:09.160
some extent.

636
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:11.359
Well, there's more than than you, is us, right, So

637
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:13.480
if they want to have, if they want good things

638
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:16.160
to happen, you got to earn them. And if you

639
00:30:16.200 --> 00:30:18.119
want to keep them, you got to keep earning them.

640
00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.000
Because here's the other route. If you mess up at Rodeo,

641
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:23.720
you don't ever go back when I was there. You're over.

642
00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:28.400
You go to live in the cell somewhere and it's

643
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:32.440
mostly domitored, but there's twelve, I think fourteen hundred cells.

644
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:35.680
It ain't Gola because when I left, I had six

645
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:39.240
three hundred and twenty five prisoners and they cut the

646
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:45.480
population way back, but you know it whatever, So we

647
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:47.839
had really good control of it and it but they

648
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:51.079
were controlling themselves a lot, because that's what it is.

649
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:54.359
It's not raising kids. You manipulate them and train them

650
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:56.960
to control themselves. And no, right, I'm wrong, And so

651
00:30:57.079 --> 00:30:59.359
that's why when they get out of prison, they're not

652
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:02.839
gonna hurt you. And that's the whole deal making community safe.

653
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:05.240
And today Angola is different because it used to be.

654
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:07.200
Once you went there. Man, you died there. You weren't

655
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:09.039
getting out. And now it seems to have evolved to

656
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:15.079
shorter termers are you know, being sent there and they're

657
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:19.759
getting released a lot more, I guess for multitude of reasons.

658
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:20.799
I know that's all over the place.

659
00:31:20.839 --> 00:31:24.640
But and I'm glad because we hired some of them

660
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:28.640
our chapelain to Mississippi and our maintenance people. And some

661
00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:32.400
of them are ex convicts from Angola. They got pardons

662
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:35.839
that have life sentences, and so they're functioning and doing well,

663
00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:39.440
but they rehabilitated. But it was a moral thing. Some

664
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:41.720
of them are preachers that he had finished the seminary

665
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:45.000
and there was one hundred and twenty of them in

666
00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:50.599
the seminary class at its Mashamal and so then they

667
00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:52.559
had their own church and did their own preaching and

668
00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:55.880
so forth. And now you have those things in probably

669
00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:00.079
thirty states across the country that came out and go, well,

670
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:02.200
that ain't Gola was a change agent for the correction

671
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:07.559
in America actually, and so we saw that happen and

672
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:10.759
that's how we fixed Mississippi. It's pretty well.

673
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:15.000
Fixed because you went from Louisiana to Mississippi. So if people,

674
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:16.440
don't you know we have listeners all over.

675
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:18.680
I was out four years before I did that, and

676
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:22.640
I started a nonprofit prison Seminary Foundation, and so we

677
00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:26.240
started doing the seminaries and other states because they all

678
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:28.480
knew that whatever we did it and going to work,

679
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.279
because it did change and the violence was gone from it.

680
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:34.359
It's one of the safest prisons in the country when

681
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.559
I left, and yet it had some of the worst prisoners.

682
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.119
So why well, everybody wanted to see it. There was

683
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:44.960
one other reason why we had raised well at that

684
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:49.119
point of the lower a million dollars one point two million,

685
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:54.480
that we had evidence based research from Better University to

686
00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:57.480
why I ain't going to change. So that research went

687
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:01.720
all over the country. In having the research is what's

688
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:04.400
really spun it out, and that's what allowed me to

689
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.720
do the nonprofit to do it in other states. In

690
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:11.000
the other states were Texas and so forth. Mississippi was

691
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:13.200
one of them. But it failed in Mississippi because they

692
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.519
wouldn't give the inmates access. It was just to please

693
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:20.079
a governor and some of the religious folks. But the

694
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:23.599
Department of Corrections didn't change. And so therefore all I

695
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:26.839
had to do was go change that and then it worked.

696
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:28.440
I love it. All I had to do was go

697
00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:30.279
change that like and he did.

698
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:34.279
So let's knew what was wrong with it. I'd seen

699
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:36.359
what I'd seen what happened, and I knew what he

700
00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:39.000
didn't do right, and so it was easy to fix.

701
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:44.079
And I took some good folks to Mississippi, like Kathy Font.

702
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.799
Though yeah, by the way, y'all, I don't know.

703
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.519
You can see if you're watching, but Warton Font knows back.

704
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.759
She's sitting here. I got two of my heroes in

705
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:55.440
one room, and I'm just having the time of my

706
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:56.079
life right now.

707
00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:58.039
So hey, let's read directoral quick.

708
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:01.359
So obviously everyone who's been listening knows that that he

709
00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:04.680
did not meet his his execution date. He died before

710
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:09.000
that ever happened. But if anybody knows about execution, it

711
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:13.519
would be you. And so can you talk about let's

712
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.159
say he were going to go be executed and that

713
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:19.039
date was handed down. Can you talk through real quick,

714
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:22.599
how would you prepare for his execution and some in

715
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:25.079
the protocols and how that should have happened had he

716
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:27.880
lived to see his day.

717
00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:34.719
Well, at that point, you they're gonna die, and so

718
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:38.079
you want to be as easy on your staff as

719
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:39.719
you do on him. And you don't want, you don't

720
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:41.400
want to have to fight. He been chained him down.

721
00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:43.119
You him to go walk in there and do it.

722
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:46.199
And so that's crazy to say it that way. It's

723
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:48.840
not that simple, but it is as simple. And so

724
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:53.360
then you would you would not be so harsh. You'd

725
00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:56.920
still have tremendously close security on him, but then you'd

726
00:34:56.920 --> 00:34:58.559
find out what he wants to eat for his last

727
00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:00.840
meal and within reason, and you would feed him that.

728
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:02.880
And so then you would want to be sure that

729
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:06.559
he would have a chance to, you know, save his soul,

730
00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:09.559
and so there would be a chaplain there and so forth,

731
00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:14.480
and then you go down the last week, you move

732
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:19.079
over to the execution area, and then that when you

733
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:21.280
got ready to do it, then you're gonna go down

734
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:24.159
to his cell and you're gonna prepare him to go

735
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:27.320
there taken and walk him in there, and you're gonna

736
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:31.679
let him say a statement to his victim. And this

737
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:35.119
goes this way. He can he can deny it. You're

738
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:37.239
gonna give him a short period of time but talk.

739
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:41.920
But if he's a brace either or if he's not

740
00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:45.559
appropriate with what he says, then you're gonna shut that

741
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:48.280
off because you flip the microphone, which and he's off,

742
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:52.239
and so he's got to be respectful like we have

743
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:54.840
been with him bringing him in there. Then you're gonna

744
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:56.719
lay on the table and there's gonna be somebody for

745
00:35:56.800 --> 00:35:59.880
each leg, somebody for each arm, somebody for his chest.

746
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:03.440
They gonna strap him all them and it's gonna and

747
00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:04.360
you're going to do the.

748
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:09.960
Process whenever you you chose the executioner.

749
00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:14.199
I'm not I'm not going to ask specifics other than like,

750
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:17.239
how how does how does one become an executioner?

751
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:17.480
You know?

752
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.400
Is that just kind of a.

753
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:23.840
You know, process or is it something that comes more

754
00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:27.519
organic based on relationships and who you know can handle it.

755
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:32.119
That's the most You're really getting to the most sensitive

756
00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:36.239
area of the whole process. And so those things are

757
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:42.239
by law are not ever exposed or are disclosed. You know, who, what,

758
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:46.599
when or where or how he's chosen, and so we

759
00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:48.079
really have to shy away from that.

760
00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:50.119
I understand, I completely understand.

761
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:54.079
I just wonder I listened to an audio I bought

762
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:56.360
out of Texas and it was witness to an execution.

763
00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:58.360
I don't know if you've ever heard listened to it before,

764
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:00.519
But it's people who were on tied down teams and

765
00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:04.599
part of execution process. And some of them, you know,

766
00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:06.400
it was just like clockwork and they just did it

767
00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:07.960
as part of the job. And then some people it

768
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:11.079
broke them after so many you know that they were

769
00:37:11.079 --> 00:37:12.559
a part of that process and they didn't want to

770
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:14.400
do it anymore. And I thought it was so interesting

771
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:20.760
that you would walk away from that. You know, it's

772
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:22.119
got to be hard on people, I guess, is what

773
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:22.960
I'm trying to get at.

774
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:24.719
And have you.

775
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:29.960
Ever had any conversations with whomover I'm not asking who

776
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:33.119
that it was. It was hard, hard conversations.

777
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:36.000
Well, we cover that in the process, and in the

778
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:42.239
process that we have a psychiatric person on contract that

779
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:45.719
we don't really we know who it is, and we

780
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:49.760
have that phone number, and we we give that phone

781
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:52.840
number out everybody in vog and we say, you have

782
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:56.320
the right and privilege to college person if you want to,

783
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:00.079
and then that person will build us for the with

784
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:03.280
a call. But we won't ever know who called. We

785
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:05.920
don't want to know, but we would know if they

786
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:08.280
want to tell us, I guess, But we make that

787
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:11.119
available to the staff so that if they feel like

788
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:14.480
they need to talk to someone, they can a professional

789
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:17.679
that can really help them. I don't know if anybody

790
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.400
ever call him and they're asked, and uh, it's what

791
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:25.280
we do. And it's a lot of people involved in it.

792
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:29.119
Somebody has to sit with the victims family. Somebody has

793
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:32.800
to sit with the inmates family. Somebody has to me

794
00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:35.960
we have food for them while they wait, and we

795
00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:40.000
don't make the victim's family they wait inside the prison

796
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.320
and the inmates family too. Before the inmates family had

797
00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:46.079
to wait outside the front gate. Well you know, they

798
00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:48.480
got a mom too, and they sorry of what he did,

799
00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:50.679
which he would have done it, and they might be

800
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:53.880
very good, fine people, and so you want to treat

801
00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:55.480
him with dignity in respect.

802
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:58.079
Too, because punishment, there's a lot of people being punished,

803
00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:01.039
not just the person being put to death. There's a

804
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:03.519
lot of people, I would say that, like you said,

805
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:05.639
are good people and they haven't done this. They still

806
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:08.199
love their son, they still love their their uncle, their

807
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:13.039
you know whatever. And that's uh, that's that's the hard

808
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:14.840
part I think that we miss sometimes, you know, you

809
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:16.519
think about all the things Derek Todd Lee did and

810
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:17.719
you want to be like, well, hell, I'll be the

811
00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:19.320
one put a bullet and he because of all he did.

812
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:21.679
But when it comes down to it, when it comes

813
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:24.239
down to that actual moment, I don't know that I

814
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:26.199
would want to be the person to do it, because

815
00:39:26.199 --> 00:39:27.280
then it reflects on me.

816
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:29.760
Am I any better? You know what I'm trying to say.

817
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:31.119
And you get into then you get into that whole

818
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:33.039
personal turmoil possibly of.

819
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:36.480
I don't think like you, Okay, talk to me. That's

820
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:37.280
what I'm trying to get.

821
00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:42.480
It's I don't like what he did. Yeah, and I can't,

822
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:46.159
you know, you you really think, how can you be

823
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:49.000
the brutal to do what you did to pay him

824
00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:52.280
Kinnimore and or pays and all of them, and how

825
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:54.800
can you do one after the other? And how can

826
00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:56.719
we not know that you're going to do another one

827
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:00.559
and another one another one? And is that guy hadn't

828
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:05.679
figured it out Zachary to stop him, then they'd be

829
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:07.639
more and more. So you got to think about that.

830
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:10.440
You got to think, hey, this is good that we

831
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:14.119
got you stopped. It's good and nobody else is a victim.

832
00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:18.199
It's horrible what you did. And so I don't have

833
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:21.280
to like it. I am, I'm not gonna like it,

834
00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:26.159
and so I don't have a problem with it, you know,

835
00:40:26.360 --> 00:40:30.119
because it's not getting even. It's just it's just business.

836
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:30.840
Right, It's not punitive.

837
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:32.639
It's the lock you from doing this. It's and hurting

838
00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:35.239
these people, you know, it's what you are.

839
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:39.039
And what I read about that really made me understand

840
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:41.239
the job I think better too, was in your book.

841
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:43.079
Warden Kane does have a book, by the way, it's

842
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:46.400
called Caine's Redemption. If you want a good read from

843
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:48.920
someone who has a long history obviously in corrections, I

844
00:40:48.920 --> 00:40:52.679
would absolutely suggest that you read that book if you

845
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:54.760
like to read, because I really enjoyed it. But you

846
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:57.400
said something in there about you didn't want to be

847
00:40:57.480 --> 00:41:01.199
the person to choose I guess that time of someone's death,

848
00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:03.679
so you went with the sunrise or the sunset.

849
00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:06.079
Yeah, I didn't like picking the time because I did

850
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:08.199
that on the first one and they and they had

851
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:12.519
it's in the book. They bet on the time and

852
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.880
I told exact time and it was ten minutes after

853
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:18.320
twelve midnight, And so I felt real bad about that

854
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:21.599
later because who might have picked when someone died? I'm

855
00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:24.519
not God, and so therefore I didn't like that, and

856
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:27.239
we got the legislature to change the time. My brother

857
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:30.079
was a senator at the time, and he agreed with me,

858
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:33.639
and what a lot of them did. So we made

859
00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:36.280
a time from six to nine, I believe, at night,

860
00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:39.079
and that way we let dark beat the time. When

861
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:41.480
it got dark, we did it, we look outside, we said,

862
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:44.280
well we think it's dark, okay, so let's go do it.

863
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:46.760
And so that way, that's why it was that time,

864
00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:50.000
because we didn't like that picking the time. I didn't

865
00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:51.320
like it. I don't want to pick the time.

866
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:53.800
I like that like I like that it's out of

867
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:54.239
my hand.

868
00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:56.079
So I have to do the job, and I'm going

869
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:57.760
to do the job, but I'm going to do it

870
00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:00.400
on I guess God's time, you know, or at a.

871
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:02.159
Dark So that's why we're gonna do it at dark.

872
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:07.519
And I talked to the preacher after that, after that execution,

873
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:11.039
because I felt real bad because I chosen the time,

874
00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:15.239
and and uh, then I knew that they were betting

875
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:18.519
on the time. And so then the guy that I

876
00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:20.880
told exactly when I was gonna do it twelve minutes

877
00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:25.199
after midnight was he won the deal. And so then

878
00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:28.920
I thought about casting lodge for Jesus robe and uh

879
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:32.760
I thought, man, you did that bad. Mom would like that.

880
00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:37.159
And so when we had to change to get change

881
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:39.480
his time, gotcha? Do you.

882
00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:43.679
How many methods of execution have you witnessed?

883
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:48.880
Electrocution and then the lethal injection to.

884
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:56.920
The the electrocution? How did that? How did that hit you?

885
00:42:57.039 --> 00:42:58.199
What was that about?

886
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:03.400
Well? I could be you know, I held a hand

887
00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:05.599
of a couple of them, or three or four of

888
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:09.719
them that we execute him, because you know, just the

889
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:17.679
situation as it was, and uh so it just was

890
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:22.840
the electrocution. I wouldn't hold his hand. Oh yeah, the

891
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.360
way the electrocution is, you know, it's pretty it's pretty

892
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:31.280
kind of violent with you because you've got the mask

893
00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:35.199
over your face and you've got your you've covered pretty much.

894
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:40.639
But uh, lethal injection is you know the ones I've done,

895
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:44.000
and I've done I think eleven twelve of them there,

896
00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:48.519
they've all worked smoothly and been peaceful enough because you're

897
00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:52.119
putting him to sleep before you're actually putting him to death.

898
00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:53.400
And so.

899
00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:57.960
That's how that works. And so therefore then that's you know,

900
00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:03.360
there's been no flawing now one and electrocution. It just

901
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:08.480
you're going and just get electrocuted. Yeah, yeah, just all

902
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:11.239
that is. That's why I've strapped around your chest and all,

903
00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:15.639
but to hold you in the chair. Yeah, it's horrible

904
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:18.480
that we have to do those things. It's horrible that

905
00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:22.280
we kill one another. Yeah, you know, what kind of

906
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:24.000
animals are we? Right?

907
00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:25.960
I think that was the reflection part I was thinking.

908
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:27.960
I was one, you know, I understand there's a job

909
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:30.239
to do. I just golly when it when it comes

910
00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:32.440
down to actually doing the job, I don't think there

911
00:44:32.679 --> 00:44:34.840
that there's as many people who would do it as

912
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:37.960
they profess that they would, because it's heavy and it's

913
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:39.840
a lot, and you cannot take away the fact that

914
00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:44.199
you're still taking someone's life. And it shouldn't be flippant.

915
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:47.360
In my opinion, it should be taken seriously and with respect,

916
00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:50.800
even though the person you're putting to death had no

917
00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:54.719
respect often for their victims, you know.

918
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:58.800
And what's so bad about, you know, people that you

919
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:02.840
know murder is all the family that you know that

920
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:07.039
has to pay for the rest of their life, that

921
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:10.639
mother and that wife or those children to the rest

922
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:13.639
of their life. Although it doesn't end with the execution.

923
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:18.159
It ends with death and their own and so it's

924
00:45:18.199 --> 00:45:20.480
so horrible to do it. I mean, to be a

925
00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:23.280
murderer and just go kill people, and these kids with

926
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:27.159
these guns and just shooting each other's terrible. And you

927
00:45:27.639 --> 00:45:31.239
talk about you know, you just got to keep control

928
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:33.239
of your kids. You've got to keep the guns away

929
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:37.199
from them. Yeah, and you've got to know where they're going.

930
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:41.159
It's got to be and then you have to We

931
00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:43.840
just got a lot of problem with that, you know.

932
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:47.360
I'm far the Second Amendment so forth, but we just

933
00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:49.840
need to control ourselves a little better, a lot better.

934
00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:52.280
Yeah, there's more respect around the Second Amendment than a

935
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:54.000
lot of people give it. And I think that's probably

936
00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:56.400
part of the issue. I know it's another subject here,

937
00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:01.880
but with great power comes a lot of you know, responsibility,

938
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:04.960
and I think people miss that point. You know, do

939
00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:08.639
you how many years now have you been a warden?

940
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:11.159
Which overall, how many years did you have you served as.

941
00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:13.239
A ward Well, I was very uniquely awarded. I started

942
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:15.719
at the top. I never worked in the prisons, and

943
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:18.400
I was awarding of the prison and so I didn't

944
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:20.920
work my way up. I just did it. Yeah, I

945
00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:24.360
was a school teacher. Any good school teacher can run

946
00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:24.880
a prison.

947
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:26.039
What did you teach?

948
00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:28.639
Well, I told oh, I knew that.

949
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.000
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

950
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:33.400
And so they's teaching school to teach the high school student.

951
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:37.760
They have a callum methods course, and so that's teaching

952
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:41.800
the teacher how to maintain decorum in their classroom. And

953
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:44.360
so that very thing that they taught me is what

954
00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:48.360
I used to run Angola. I would being like the teacher.

955
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:52.599
So that set me apart really from the inmates, I

956
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:55.039
guess in my but I didn't realize that at the time,

957
00:46:55.159 --> 00:46:58.079
but it caused me to keep myself at a different

958
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:01.440
status from them. I can be I can be your friend,

959
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:03.119
I can talk to you and all this, but I'm

960
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:05.840
going to always be your boss. I'm always being control.

961
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:09.639
That's what teachers are taught to do. And so that

962
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:12.280
made it work for me. And it's the worst job

963
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:14.840
I ever had. I talked three months, I hate it.

964
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:17.039
It's the worst job in the world to be a

965
00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:20.719
school teacher. To me, Yeah, because I had the problem

966
00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:23.480
with the discipline. I was impatient with him. I didn't

967
00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:26.559
like him screaming hard of being bad in class, which

968
00:47:26.679 --> 00:47:28.480
can't do what he did to me when I was

969
00:47:28.519 --> 00:47:29.840
in school. They'd give us whip it.

970
00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:30.679
Man, they paddle you.

971
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:34.320
Hey, my grandfather was a principal, and do you know

972
00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:38.159
he's paddled my producer. How many how many jobs have

973
00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:41.079
you had where your grandpa paddled you're a your producer.

974
00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:43.320
I know they paddled us. If they come back in class,

975
00:47:43.639 --> 00:47:46.079
they lined us up, boys and girls and paddle all

976
00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:49.000
of us. You're talking and they'd paddy if you fell

977
00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:51.800
spelling yeah, yes.

978
00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:53.480
And then you go home and get paddled again because

979
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:54.079
your mama.

980
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:55.920
Jumps on you. We don't do that now, and maybe

981
00:47:55.960 --> 00:47:57.840
we missing a lot because we lost a lot of

982
00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:02.840
discipline at home. And so disciplinement is incredibly important to children.

983
00:48:03.320 --> 00:48:05.760
They've got to learn to follow rules. And if they

984
00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:08.320
can teach them to follow rules, then they'll follow the law.

985
00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:11.440
But if you don't, haven't follow rules at home then

986
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:14.480
and don't be oppressive, but be consistent. And that's what

987
00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:17.639
you got to do with raising kids. Be consistent, have

988
00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:20.559
a few rules and stick with them, and then that's

989
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:23.360
like the law. You can't cross this rule. I'm gonna

990
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:26.320
do something to you, and don't say what, because then

991
00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:28.760
you're committed to what you're gonna do to them. So

992
00:48:28.840 --> 00:48:30.840
if you say I'm old paddle you. If you do this,

993
00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:33.519
then you've got to do it. Otherwise then your law

994
00:48:33.559 --> 00:48:36.079
didn't mean anything. Which here is your rule at home.

995
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:38.840
That's a raising kids. That's another day.

996
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:42.360
Well, I guess we can kind of conclude with I've

997
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:44.320
got two more things for you here if you don't mind.

998
00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:51.519
You left Angola just fifteen days before Derek Lee died.

999
00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:55.519
Did you what did when you found out that he?

1000
00:48:55.920 --> 00:48:57.760
Can you kind of talk me through how how you

1001
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:01.760
found out and you know what what you were told

1002
00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:02.840
about his death?

1003
00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:05.239
Yeah? I talked to him. What the ward about his

1004
00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:07.840
death or what they told me was that he had

1005
00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:11.519
the pacemaker in him and the pacemaker malfunctioned. It had

1006
00:49:11.559 --> 00:49:15.559
a defibrillator in it, and it defibrillated and wouldn't stop.

1007
00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:18.599
And after they killed him, what they you know what

1008
00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:21.639
they kind of applied on the side, right, I'm not

1009
00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:22.559
sure if that's true.

1010
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:25.199
That's what I was told allegedly.

1011
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:29.159
Yeah, allegedly, And so I thought, how amusing? You know? Yeah?

1012
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:33.320
You you didn't they took God took you on out

1013
00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:38.679
and and so anyway, just.

1014
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:42.119
So he may not have got lethal injection, but he

1015
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:45.400
did get electrocuted. I guess we could argue that happened.

1016
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:46.519
But yeah, so.

1017
00:49:48.039 --> 00:49:51.039
It's unfortunate that he didn't, you know, it didn't get

1018
00:49:51.079 --> 00:49:53.840
to go through the entire process. But he can't hurt

1019
00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:56.800
anybody else. And it's it's I guess a fitting closure

1020
00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:59.400
at that that he can't hurt anyone else. So looking back,

1021
00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:02.199
this is my on on for you looking back over

1022
00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:07.440
all of your experiences in corrections, what lessons have you

1023
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:11.639
learned through the entire process overall? What are the biggest

1024
00:50:11.679 --> 00:50:13.239
things you've taken from this career.

1025
00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:19.519
I think the biggest thing I took from the career

1026
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:23.159
was was what it takes to make it on the

1027
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:27.320
street when you get out, and how to correct the

1028
00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:30.519
DV behavior. And I said that at the beginning, we

1029
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:33.920
have to have a job. We have to have morality,

1030
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.480
and that's our job running prisons, and we have to

1031
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:40.679
have and we have to deal with a felony. And

1032
00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:43.039
I think that we should not have the felony for

1033
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:47.119
nonviolent crimes because the felony keeps you from getting a job.

1034
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:49.840
Some people will not hire you if you have a felony,

1035
00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:54.159
and so then that's a hindrance because if you don't

1036
00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:57.119
have a job when you get out, you have got

1037
00:50:57.239 --> 00:50:57.599
to eat.

1038
00:50:58.119 --> 00:51:01.199
So how you going to do it to reduce recidivism.

1039
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:03.440
You're saying that if it's a non violent offense, it

1040
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:05.440
shouldn't be a felony because then you can at least

1041
00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:08.679
get out and you can job get a job, and

1042
00:51:08.840 --> 00:51:09.400
so but.

1043
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:12.880
Anyway, and we need to do more to really try

1044
00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:15.119
to help people get jobs. It's been to proven and

1045
00:51:15.199 --> 00:51:17.840
get out. Now here's the thing. If you have a skill,

1046
00:51:18.039 --> 00:51:20.559
it doesn't matter. Fallally doesn't matter. I mean, if you're

1047
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:24.960
having an ASSE certification in automotive mechanics, you're going to

1048
00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:27.880
get a job at the dealership or somewhere. If you

1049
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:31.039
have an as if you're a carpenter and a good

1050
00:51:31.079 --> 00:51:34.360
one and certified, you get hired. So you have to

1051
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:36.079
have a job with a skill. And that's when we

1052
00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:38.920
really focused at the end of my career down gol

1053
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:42.440
on skilled. Kathy played a major role in that and

1054
00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:45.639
working with the court, and so then we had to end.

1055
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:49.760
We realized we could not have enough teachers to teach

1056
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:51.880
the skills, so we had to let the inmates be

1057
00:51:52.039 --> 00:51:55.559
the teachers. That was uniquely done because nobody ever let

1058
00:51:55.599 --> 00:51:59.679
one inmate have any authority over another. Well, he really doesn't.

1059
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:01.840
He's a teacher. If you don't want to learn, you

1060
00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:04.039
don't have to do it. So when we let the

1061
00:52:04.119 --> 00:52:07.280
inmate teach, then we saved a lot of money because

1062
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.760
we could teach vocational skill because they were the mechanics,

1063
00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:13.679
like the guy that escaped, they were mechanics. They were

1064
00:52:13.719 --> 00:52:17.320
working doing air conditioning and heating and such as that.

1065
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:19.639
Well they can teach it to the new inmates that

1066
00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:23.719
come in. So I estimated in Mississippi that we're saving

1067
00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:27.760
about eighteen million dollars a year in teacher salaries because

1068
00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:31.760
I have almost three hundred inmate teachers and so they're

1069
00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:35.400
teaching other inmates skills and trades, and we focus on

1070
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:39.360
that more than academics because academics is good, you got

1071
00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:42.920
a balanced checkbook. But skills and trades is a job,

1072
00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:46.599
and so especially if you're able to work. And so

1073
00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:49.239
that's what many people do. They never learn a skill,

1074
00:52:49.280 --> 00:52:52.360
they never had a job. So we teach that then

1075
00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:54.960
they can make it. That's what I learned most was

1076
00:52:55.039 --> 00:52:57.719
let the inmates help us and be the teachers. And

1077
00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:00.960
now that's catching on all across the country. So that

1078
00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:05.559
started at Angola, and I'm most proud of a lot

1079
00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:07.639
of things we did at Angola fell in our laud

1080
00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:11.079
We weren't that smart, but it would just happen, and

1081
00:53:11.239 --> 00:53:14.039
so evioves, I don't claim credit. It was us. It

1082
00:53:14.199 --> 00:53:17.719
was we changed Angola, not Old Burrow. A lot of

1083
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:20.119
people worked really hard. They just caught the vision and

1084
00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:23.320
we saw it work. Then it worked in Mississippi, which

1085
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:27.880
we researched again with another four hundred thousand dollars in

1086
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:32.159
research from Baylor and Pepperdine to prove again that it works.

1087
00:53:32.920 --> 00:53:35.360
And so we just came back to the Museum of

1088
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:39.519
the Bible with a video from from Baylor on you

1089
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:42.519
know what works in Mississippi the same thing inmate teachers

1090
00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:45.199
and change the culture and the violence goes.

1091
00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:47.039
Do these studies are published online?

1092
00:53:48.039 --> 00:53:49.119
Yeah, they're published yet.

1093
00:53:49.800 --> 00:53:51.480
Because I'm a you know, I'm a nerd. I want

1094
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:52.639
to go. I want to go read it. I want

1095
00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:54.280
to go learn about it from Baylor.

1096
00:53:54.039 --> 00:53:56.639
And Pepperdine and what's going on in Mississippi.

1097
00:53:57.159 --> 00:53:57.800
That's awesome.

1098
00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:02.159
I wish the legislators in Mississippi read it well.

1099
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:02.559
I'm gonna.

1100
00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:04.760
I'm gonna do my job right here in Dennim Springs, Louisiana.

1101
00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:06.880
I'm gonna, i'merious, I'm gonna read this. I like studies,

1102
00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:09.679
and I think that there's there's value in that. And

1103
00:54:09.800 --> 00:54:14.239
if we can't just be punitive minded in prison, if

1104
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:16.760
we're punitive minded, we're cutting off society at the knees

1105
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:19.000
because these people will get out, like you said, and

1106
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:22.800
when they get out, if we have not helped them

1107
00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:26.000
to evolve into a new productive person, then what have

1108
00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:28.719
we really done down the road? What have we done

1109
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:32.400
but have higher recidivism rates and not benefit our society?

1110
00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:36.199
And so well, the research with doctor Byron Johnson, so

1111
00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:39.280
you really he wrote more god Less Crime, so he'd

1112
00:54:39.320 --> 00:54:45.280
really you know, well, renowned researcher for criminal justice. And

1113
00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:48.480
so look him up and he's in Mississippi working on

1114
00:54:48.800 --> 00:54:51.559
working for us, been doing it for three years. So

1115
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:54.880
he just published. Some of his works are published.

1116
00:54:54.920 --> 00:54:56.559
Now awesome.

1117
00:54:56.880 --> 00:55:00.559
There's a book, Dan Gola book about the research. I

1118
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:01.679
don't remember the name of it.

1119
00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:04.679
But anyway, well, I'm gonna have a whole slew of

1120
00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:08.239
people from here to India looking up looking up these

1121
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:10.119
studies and reading Kine's Redemption and.

1122
00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:11.480
And and doing all of that.

1123
00:55:11.719 --> 00:55:14.400
So for every for taking the time to come just

1124
00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:20.000
speak to me. I'm a nobody and so I just well,

1125
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:23.199
I really appreciate your time, and thank you so much

1126
00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:23.920
for coming in.

1127
00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:25.239
And chatting with me.

1128
00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:26.880
Thank you so much.

1129
00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:28.079
Yes, yes, sir

1130
00:55:31.239 --> 00:55:31.280
M