March 10, 2026

DEJA VU

DEJA VU
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Season 9

KJ dives deep into the tragic true crime story of Sally McKay and her nephew Joseph Baker, a father whose life was cut short by a 15 year old boy.

Timestamps
02:24 A Journey to Arkansas
08:01 The Life of Sally McKay
09:11 Tragedy Strikes the Family
18:10 Arrest of a Young Suspect
25:27 Life in Prison
32:18 A Letter of Understanding
41:48 Redemption at the Snowden House
48:40 A Disturbing Discovery

WEBVTT

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Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell

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stories of real crimes with real victims, whose cases are

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so shocking that many are left wondering how is this

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even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections,

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and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator,

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dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so

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evil many feel they are unspeakable. Warning. Unspeakable as intended

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for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm

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not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey, y'all, it's

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kJ You're back with another episode of Unspeakable. Are you

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ready for this one? Because this was not the episode

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I was actually gonna do this week, but it caught

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my attention and I was like, ah, Mama is going

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to switch directions because these people need to hear this

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story told by yours truly. Before I jump in, though,

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I have some shout outs and I'm going to start

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in boise and this is gonna be Leslie Snyder. How

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are you doing, Leslie? I'm waving at you on the camera.

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Thank you so much for joining my crime family. I

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appreciate each and every single person that joins, even y'all

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I have people that leave, and I understand you have

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reasons that you gotta go, but then they come back,

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and that to me is just a nod to how

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much you appreciate the content. And so thank you so

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very much everyone who comes and goes. I appreciate you

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at all times. Now, Miss Linda Bowen in Huntsville, Alabama,

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what is going on, Linda. I have been to Huntsville, Alabama.

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It's a lovely place. And then Ellisville, Mississippi, is where

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Amanda Holder is and Amanda, girl, you went all out.

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You just bought you a whole year right there in

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one drop, and I appreciate that as well. And then

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we're going to in today in Erath, Louisiana, where Miss

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Alli Pickles is living. And what a precious name. I

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don't know if Pickles is your real last name, but

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I love it. And that was the name of my

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niece's chinchilla that we just recently lost. Rest in peace,

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little Pickles. We loved her for many, many years. So

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Ali right there in e Wrath, girl, welcome to the

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Crime family. So happy to have you. But we're not

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going to stay in Louisiana today, y'all. We are going

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to go to Arkansas, and as I start this story,

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we're going to go pretty far back, and then we're

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going to work our way forward and you'll see why.

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Because I want to ask you something. Do you believe

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in deja vus? Have you ever experienced it before? Because

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I know for a fact I have. It's like you

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can feel that you have done this before, You've been

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here before, you've seen these things before. I have felt it,

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and it is such a strange and sometimes even an

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unnerving whenever it does happen, you sit there and you're like,

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how the hell could I have done this before, been

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here before? It's my first time. Well, this case is

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going to leave you feeling just like that when we

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are done. But how could this be? Well, we're going

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to back up to the year nineteen ninety six, and

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this was set to be an amazing year for seventy

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five year old Sally McKay. Now, her life had been

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one so far that it kind of sounds like it's

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coming out of a Huckleberry Finn era, one rich in history,

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and it makes you want to just like sip sweet

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tea as you're rocking on the front porch of a house,

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because Sally's great great grandfather had been a colonel in

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the Civil War who afterwards settled into everyday life in Memphis, Tennessee,

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where he then became a successful landowner. Now, Kelly, why

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did you just go from nineteen ninety six back to

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the Civil War? Hang on, guys, I'm getting there. But

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after Sally's great great grandfather left that Civil War and

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settled and became that landowner, he also fell in love

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with Miss Anne Brinkley. Now miss Anne Brinkley. Her daddy

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was famous in those parts because he was played a

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big role in establishing the Memphis to Little Rock railroad

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line of the times. So Colonel Robert Bogardis he decided

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that he was going to make an honest woman of

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miss Brinkley, and he moved her into an elegant mansion,

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the one only fitting for his beautiful bride Anne. And

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the name of that mansion, I'm sure you want to know, well,

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it was Annsdale, of course, named right after that beautiful woman.

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Even today, that home stands as a highly regarded home

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on the National Register of Historic Places, and it's currently

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used for big events like weddings and other things that

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require large venues. Well, in that mansion, the couple would

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become the proud parents of five children. And one of

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those five children, he was a son named after his father. Well,

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he too would grow up and become a successful landowner himself. Well,

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that son, again, his name was Robert, after his own dad.

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He had some sons of his own that he would

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also name Robert. And I'm giving you this long history

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because it really plays a role in this story that

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we're starting now. That Robert was named Robert Snowden, and

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he grew up to become a soldier in World War One.

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After his service, he would then come home and he

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bought one thousand acres of land in Arkansas. So we've

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got this lineage of men that went to war, that fought,

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and then came home, bought some land, became very successful,

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and found the loves of their lives. Now, mister Robert Snowden,

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he would create and grow a successful plantation at what's

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known as Horseshoe Lake. So he and his wife Grace,

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when they settled there, they didn't build a home as

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grand as their ancestors had. They instead built this modest

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yet lovely home right there on their property. But the

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best part It had a screened in porch that looked

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straight out over the lake, and it provided a beautiful

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place to sit and watch the sunset each and every day.

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But by nineteen forty nine, that modest home had been

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expanded to a three story, six thousand square foot home

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that was the envy of everyone in town. And it

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was proof that hard work and dedication can deliver the

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home of your dreams over time. Now, let's talk about

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this house, y'all, because it's nothing to shake a stick

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at a promise. I want to give you a visual here.

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I want you to think marble floors and a massive

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crystal chandelier, finished out with a grand staircase that gives

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the air of a South Louisiana Anna Bellum home. It's

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absolutely positively stunning and gives you the sense of times

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gone by. It's beautiful, and in that home the family

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tree of this family I've been speaking of. They would

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continue to produce branches throughout the years. Four children would

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be born in that home, one son and three daughters,

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And one of those daughters was Miss Sally Snowden, the

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woman who I started this story about. She's now going

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to be considered Miss Sallie McKay. You follow me great,

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So her real name was Sarah, but everyone in her

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family called her Sally and Sally's childhood again, it was

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something straight out of a classic Southern tale. She and

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her siblings grew up in this very home, sharing memories

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and love until they all grew up, spread their wings

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and they all moved away, but Miss Sally well, she

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would return eventually to this childhood home in nineteen eighty

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two after her divorce from her husband his name was

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David McKay, and her children they were now grown and

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they were off doing their own thing. But when Sally

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divorced her husband, she would then find out or get

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the news rather that her father had passed away, and

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so she made her way back to her roots at

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Horseshoe Lake and Sally she had already made her mark

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on the world as a CPA and that training was

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going to be super super important because it left her

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very well equipped to take over the family business, which

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had now grown to include thirty lakefront cabins, amongst other

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related business dealings. So she tended to this family home

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as well as opened and ran an an antique shop

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in the area. So she may have been a single woman,

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but she was busy, and she was busy, business minded,

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a successful woman who made her own way despite all

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of the hardships that she had faced throughout her life. Well,

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as fate would have it, her nephew would also face

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some hardships of his own. Now. Her nephew's name was

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Joseph Baker, and he was a very well known and

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I guess you'd say semi famous in the area blues

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musician as well as a high school English teacher. And

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he played the blues like I told you, But his

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thing was that he could straight up rip on the guitar.

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He was absolutely just just renowned for his musicianship and

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his musicality and his ability to play this guitar well.

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His home it would have, unfortunately go up in Flames

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on August the twelfth of nineteen ninety six, and this

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would be devastating for anyone, but it was especially difficult

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him because he lost everything, which included his priceless memorabilia

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from his times playing in his band, and he had

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played also with famous people that had given him things

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like priceless guitars and signed you know, memorabilian things of

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that nature. Just things he would never be able to recover,

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and that hit him hard. That was his life, was

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his music. Well, investigators had been following a rash of

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burglaries in the area, and it was believed that the

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fire wasn't accidental. They believed that this was actually an

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arson that was started to cover up a burglary. See,

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the burglars absolutely hit the jackpot whenever they went inside

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of his house, because not only was there that precious memorabilia,

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but Joseph had a bunch of cash stowed away in

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the house. He had been saving it up because they

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were about to print his band's newest record. So to

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help offset this hardship that Joseph was now facing, his

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Aunt Sally offered for he and his family to move

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into one of the cabins on the family property, and

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this cabin was only about one hundred yards from where

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Miss Sally was staying. This was a very welcomed offer

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and the family jumped right at it and was like,

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oh my gosh, thank you, we appreciate this so much. Well,

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roughly a month would go by and it was a

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Tuesday morning when Joseph left his family cabin to go

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and speak with his aunt Sally at her house, but

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Joseph hadn't returned home yet, when in an unbelievable turn

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of events, responders were called to Sally's home after a

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report of a fire came in there like what in

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the hell, But by the time help arrived, the home

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had been completely engulfed and it was deemed a total loss.

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So police were convinced that this must have been the

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world of burglars again in that same area, trying to

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conceal evidence of a burglary. It just kind of fit

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the same mo there well. Unfortunately, as they are processing

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the scene and the fire officials are going through all

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of the what's left of the home, this would be

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found to be far worse than a burglary and an

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arson because as the firemen were sifting through the rubble

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and the ash, they were surprised to find the bodies

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of not one, but two people in the home, and

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this arson had resulted in the death of two people.

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Of course, those bodies were collected and they were sent

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for autopsy and they were very soon after identified as

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that of seventy five year old aunt Sally and her

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nephew fifty three year old Joseph, and it can't you

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can't help but just go. My god, this poor family

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had already been through so much and now this, I mean,

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Miss Sally was dead at the hands of someone else,

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and two arsons in one month of this same man's

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family and now he's dead two I mean, that's almost unbelievable.

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I always say all the time, I don't believe in coincidence,

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but it was this just a tragic coincidences. Poor wife,

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I can't imagine what she was thinking. Wouldn't you feel targeted? Like,

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my god, they burned down my first house, and now

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my husband's deceased in his aunt's house and there's a fire.

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I wouldn't have blamed her if she would have felt

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that her family was targeted. Well. As the autopsies were concluded,

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there would be another revelation that was completely unexpected. The

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bodies of the two people. Their location, first of all,

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was odd because they were found together in the home.

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Aunt Sally and her nephew Joseph were together in the home,

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and it wasn't like they hadn't been able to get

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out of the house. There were exits, there were windows.

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I mean, who stays in a house and lets it

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go up and why didn't they leave, Well, that was

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easily answered because the coroner identified that both bodies were

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suffering from gunshot wounds. The investigators were correct they couldn't

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leave the fire, but that's because they were already dead

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when the fire started. So based on the timeline of

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the fire and the response, it was determined that they

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must have been victims of a burglary that turned home

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invasion that turned arson. So there was a process to

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how this all had started. Basically, Miss Sally and Joseph

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were believed to have met up and been together whenever

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they came upon the burglar in the home spooked him,

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00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.600
and they didn't because they didn't know that the burglar

234
00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:52.039
was even in the house, So they believed that they

235
00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:54.600
went into the house they didn't know that there was

236
00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:57.440
a burglar in there, and whenever they realized that they

237
00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.240
weren't alone, it was already too late. Who what ever

238
00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:02.840
was in that house had been armed with a weapon,

239
00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.559
and when the opportunity came, that person shot and killed

240
00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:10.960
them both dead in cold blood, right there on the floor.

241
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.639
So they were shot. Based on everything that was known

242
00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:21.039
between ten thirty and eleven am well to lend itself

243
00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:24.279
to this theory that the police had. Sally's vehicle was

244
00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:27.639
also missing from the home, which is why burglary gone

245
00:15:27.679 --> 00:15:29.879
wrong was believed to be the motive, because I know

246
00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:31.480
someone's gonna say, how would they even know if it's

247
00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.720
a burglary if it burnt down to the ground. Well,

248
00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.759
dead people in houses don't drive cars away, and so

249
00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.600
who took the car must have gone in this way.

250
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.480
So if she was dead in the house, obviously her

251
00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:47.000
car had been there, but it wasn't now, so obviously

252
00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:49.559
the assumption was the burglar took the car as a

253
00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:53.440
getaway car, but a short time later her car would

254
00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:58.480
be located by a neighbor, so she owned by aunt

255
00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.960
Sally she owned a Toyota Camri, and just roughly a

256
00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.440
mile west of the home, the neighbor found the car.

257
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.320
It was wrecked and it was bad. It was a really,

258
00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.840
really bad wreck. The car was actually flipped over. It

259
00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:16.480
was not even on its wheels. So the belief once

260
00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:18.039
they got there and they looked at the vehicle was

261
00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:21.399
that it must have lost control, hit a tree and

262
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:26.039
then rolled over upside down in the ditch. So when

263
00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:29.120
police go look inside, no one was at the crash

264
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:30.960
of the car or at the scene of the crash

265
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.480
of the car, and no one was inside of the

266
00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:38.320
vehicle either, but there was evidence that the driver was injured,

267
00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:42.720
so they thought this because the windshield was busted and

268
00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:46.679
there was a blood smear in the wreckage, so whoever

269
00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.039
did this was believed to be suffering from a head

270
00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.279
wound after striking the windshield when they wrecked the car.

271
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:58.399
But after all of this immediate information and findings, the

272
00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:02.759
case went kind of cold. Time passed, and by time,

273
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:05.559
I mean days and then some weeks passed, and a

274
00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.759
press conference of sorts was even held on the property

275
00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.839
where the family decided to throw up and offer a

276
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:16.480
ten thousand dollars reward for any information that may lead

277
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.359
to the capture and the arrest of the killer of

278
00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:22.559
Aunt Sally and her nephew, but they would have to

279
00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:27.680
wait a total of four months for answers. But police

280
00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:31.960
were not twiddling their thumbs. Okay, I know when time passes,

281
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.559
a lot of times the community gets pressed and they're like,

282
00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:36.480
why why don't we have someone arrested, Why don't we

283
00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:39.000
have this. The police have to do their job, they

284
00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:41.200
have to investigate, they have to dot the i's they

285
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:45.480
have to cross the t's, and they were checking all possibilities.

286
00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:48.880
They even checked in and asked people in the area

287
00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:51.960
that they thought just might be involved because they may

288
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:56.640
have had previous run ins with police, or they may

289
00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:00.920
have been known burglars or arsonists or whatever. Four months

290
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:05.119
after their deaths, police announced that an arrest had been

291
00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:09.160
made and the community was still reeling from all of

292
00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:12.279
these arsons that had happened. And now this double murder.

293
00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:16.359
This was not child's play, This was beyond that. This

294
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:20.480
was crazy. But when the name of the person arrested

295
00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:25.519
was released, he was identified as Travis Lewis. But it

296
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:29.680
wasn't his name that was so eyebrow raising. It was

297
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:34.839
his age, because Travis Lewis was only fifteen years old

298
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:40.920
whenever he committed this crime. Now, a young teen of

299
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.880
this age being responsible for all of the damage and

300
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:47.599
all of the chaos in this town in the recent

301
00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:52.079
time was shocking, But that shock would quickly move to

302
00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:58.079
the wayside when another realization was made. And this one hurts, y'all,

303
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:02.279
This one hurts uh. And I think I say that

304
00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:08.039
because I personally would understand why this one cuts so deep.

305
00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:13.359
And it's because Travis wasn't a random stranger to his

306
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:19.920
two victims. Nephew Joseph Baker, Well, that was mister Baker

307
00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:25.319
to Travis, because he was Travis's very own English teacher

308
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:31.000
at the high school. He had looked his own teacher

309
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:34.680
in the face, a man he saw and spoke to

310
00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:38.759
every single day of his life, a man that was

311
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:44.799
dedicated daily to bettering kids and trying to teach them

312
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.319
a thing or two. He looked that man in the

313
00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:55.240
face before executing him, and he then turned and shot

314
00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:00.200
seventy five year old Miss Sally, who also wasn't a

315
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:04.480
stranger to him, Travis's own mother. Her name was Gladys.

316
00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:10.240
Miss Gladys worked for Miss Sally. She was a housekeeper

317
00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:15.599
at the main Snowden house, the Big Mansion. Not only that,

318
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:21.640
but Travis's own grandparents rented a home from Miss Sally.

319
00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.839
This fifteen year old, he was sixteen by the time

320
00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:28.519
he was arrested. He had a birthday in those weeks.

321
00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.400
But this fifteen year old murdered two people who were

322
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:37.079
nothing but kind to him and to his family. What

323
00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:41.960
kind of animal does this to people? Number one? But

324
00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:45.519
number two, what kind of person can do this to somebody?

325
00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:48.880
That they know. It's much harder to do something to

326
00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:53.960
somebody that you know that's almost just unbelievable. So as

327
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:57.759
this information was resonating with the family, the science, and

328
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.640
the courts, well they were getting ready to do their job. Now,

329
00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:05.000
when Travis was questioned about his role in the murders

330
00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:10.039
and in the arson, he took zero responsibility for what happened.

331
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:13.519
He continued to deny. He said it wasn't him, that

332
00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:17.880
it was someone else. He never admitted guilt nor took

333
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:21.839
any responsibility for the murders. He would say, look, I

334
00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:27.599
was out just burglarizing homes, but I didn't kill anybody. Now, allegedly,

335
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:31.839
which I cannot necessarily confirm this fact, but I did

336
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:33.920
find it in my research, so I'm gonna share it

337
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:36.759
with you. But again this is not confirmed by me.

338
00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:44.599
But allegedly Travis took three polygraphs, but he passed them.

339
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:49.000
It wasn't until he took a fourth polygraph examination that

340
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:55.359
he failed it. Now, I don't read too much into

341
00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:58.799
that because even if you don't, even if you're like,

342
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:00.720
oh my god, he passed these you know these light

343
00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:04.240
detector tests. Well, I really put a lot of my

344
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:08.000
faith in hard evidence as well. I think that light

345
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:11.920
detector tests are a good indicator, but hard evidence is

346
00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:14.039
something that I do put a lot of weight in.

347
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:18.440
And by this I mean Travis's fingerprints were located in

348
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.440
Miss Sally's stolen, wrecked vehicle and no one else's. So

349
00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:25.880
why would his fingerprints be there if he hadn't been

350
00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:30.079
driving the car and wrecked it? Great question. Well, when

351
00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:32.440
it came time for his trial, this was on April

352
00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:36.759
seventh of nineteen ninety eight, Travis pled guilty to the murders.

353
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:39.480
He was tried as an adult for his crimes, and

354
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.559
the judge sentenced him to twenty eight and a half

355
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:47.319
year's for these crimes. Now, why only twenty eight years, y'all?

356
00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:49.799
I can't tell you. I don't have an answer. I

357
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:52.759
wasn't there. But all I can say is he better

358
00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.200
be glad. He better thank the God above that he

359
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:59.279
did not do this in the state of Louisiana, because

360
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:02.720
my state would have sunk him forever. Okay, murdering two

361
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:05.000
people and burning down houses and all of that, no

362
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.839
frickin way. But due to the laws that were in place,

363
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:11.200
he got the twenty eight and a half years. But

364
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.359
he also would have to be required to serve seventy

365
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:17.920
percent of that sentence. So, considering he was only sixteen

366
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.319
years old whenever he was convicted, this meant that he

367
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:24.720
would not see freedom until he was forty four years old.

368
00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:30.319
But he had the opportunity for parole. Now, should he

369
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:34.240
be paroled early, that would mean at the earliest he

370
00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:37.039
would be released around the age of thirty five or

371
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.160
thirty six, depending on whenever his birthday hit. All right, Now,

372
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.039
when you commit a crime in Louisiana, oftentimes you'll hear

373
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.000
it read that they have to serve life in prison

374
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:52.160
without the benefit of probation, parole or suspension of sentence.

375
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:54.599
And what that means is you will not parole out early,

376
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.359
you will not get probation, and they're not going to

377
00:23:57.400 --> 00:23:59.839
be able to just throw your sentence to the side

378
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.480
let you out. In this case, this guy got the

379
00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:07.599
ability for parole. Now, after the strike of the gavel,

380
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:10.799
Travis was shipped off to prison to serve his sentence

381
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:14.640
in the Arkansas Department of Corrections. And from what I understand,

382
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.799
he spent a majority of his time in Grady, Arkansas,

383
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:22.799
at a place that's called the Varner Unit. And I

384
00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:25.000
did look this up because I was curious about that unit.

385
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:28.960
And this is a supermax facility, and it looks as

386
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:34.319
though they are offering a great deal of rehabilitative opportunities

387
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:37.160
for inmates. I think that's one thing we do locally

388
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:39.680
in our state of Louisiana. When you go to prison,

389
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.039
there are opportunities for growth, specifically like at Angola. You know,

390
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:48.640
you can learn a trade, you can become a successful

391
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:51.359
and useful person even if you were behind bars. And

392
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.160
isn't that that's the point of rehabilitation, I would assume,

393
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:57.720
is that we better ourselves. So this facility he was

394
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:02.400
sent to, it was known for housing juvenile offenders, which

395
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:07.119
garnered it the nickname the quote unquote gladiator school. Okay,

396
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:11.400
so it's like school on steroid for gladiators. I guess, so, Travis,

397
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:14.440
he would have spent plenty of time here. He would

398
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:16.480
have plenty of time to get his life back on

399
00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:20.359
track and possibly even have the opportunity at a life

400
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.400
after prison. Not a lot of people who commit murder

401
00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:27.599
get that opportunity, but it was there for him. So

402
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:31.440
prison all too often, if you don't know this, all

403
00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:35.400
it does is make young inmates better criminals by the

404
00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:39.519
time they are released. We know this when you take

405
00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:43.000
an offender, now granted he was a bad one, Okay,

406
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:46.440
he murdered people and was a burglar at fifteen. But

407
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:49.359
when you take someone of that caliber and then you

408
00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:52.000
put him in a prison setting amongst other people that

409
00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:53.920
may be a little bit old or more experienced than

410
00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:56.920
the criminal life, they're gonna learn how to be better criminals.

411
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:03.160
Hands down, it's gonna happen. But people will then say,

412
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:06.920
but what about rehabilitation. Well, let's talk about that real quick.

413
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:09.279
I'm not going to say I don't believe in rehabilitation.

414
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:12.079
I really actually do in some offenders, not all, and

415
00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:13.759
I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole right now.

416
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:15.920
But what I can tell you is that rehabilitation is

417
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:21.279
also somewhat of a joke, especially when you give offenders

418
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:25.400
that are youth shorter term sentencing. If they don't do

419
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.119
a lot of time for what they've done, and it's

420
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.279
a huge ish, a huge crime, they're not going to

421
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:32.480
be rehabilitated. Why would they they didn't do much time.

422
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:37.519
But in Travis's case, he's facing nearly thirty years, and

423
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:40.240
inmates who have been down for a while will tell

424
00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:43.599
you one of the biggest pains of prison is the

425
00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:47.279
fact that your friends stop calling, They stop coming for sure,

426
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.519
and even your family will stop visiting. Usually within the

427
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.640
first five years if someone going to prison, most people

428
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:58.839
have everyone falls off and they stop coming to in

429
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.480
the visitation. Even your family gets tired of the long

430
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:06.000
trips and the long days just to say hello and

431
00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:10.400
see you behind bars. But usually there is one person

432
00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:14.359
who you can count on to see you through in prison.

433
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:18.160
And I bet you can guess who it is. You're right,

434
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:26.440
it's your mama. Mamas don't quit mama's love unconditionally, and

435
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:30.880
mamas still see their babies even in the eyes of murderers.

436
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:36.720
And it's the truth. But Travis, I can't speak to

437
00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:40.640
his mother necessarily in his thirty years. But there is

438
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:47.599
another person who remained on his radar, and he would

439
00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:51.400
have none other than Buddha to thank for this. And

440
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:53.880
you're like, does she just say Buddha, Yes, ma'am, yes, sir,

441
00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:58.960
I did. Let me explain. So. Miss Sally's children, who

442
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:02.119
were grown by the time of her murder, well, they

443
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:06.000
were very familiar with the family property where she was

444
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:10.640
murdered because their own childhood memories were filled with that

445
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.680
very home and property. While they had lived in a

446
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:18.880
home or lived in that home for a few years.

447
00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:23.079
After Sally and her husband got married, they took the

448
00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:26.079
kids and they moved them to them to San Francisco,

449
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.559
and that's where the kids were raised. But they would

450
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:32.599
always return back in the summertimes to spend time at

451
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:35.480
the house. And it was just one of those places

452
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:40.440
it's too beautiful to leave permanently, and the children always

453
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:44.039
looked forward to those stays at the Snowden House during

454
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:48.279
the summers. So getting to shift from the big city

455
00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:51.519
life and make that huge change to good old southern

456
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:55.559
comfort was something that was received very well by their

457
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:59.319
children each summer and at the Snowden House, and that's

458
00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:03.200
what it's called. These themes just rolled slower, you know.

459
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:05.559
They'd come from San Francisco, and they'd show up to

460
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:09.960
see egrets wadding waiting around in the water and pecking

461
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:13.480
at the small critters hoping for a meal. The lake

462
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:18.079
was filled with lily pads, the roads were along, dinner

463
00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:20.559
was fresh when they were at the Snowden House. It's

464
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:24.440
yard to table, okay, eggs fresh from the chickens. The

465
00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:27.720
hustle and the bustle of the city life was nowhere

466
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:31.599
in sight. And one of Miss Sally's daughters, her name

467
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:36.119
was Martha. She remembered those summers all too well, and

468
00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:40.160
when she learned of her mother's murder, she too decided

469
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:43.240
to move back to that home and she was going

470
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:48.720
to run it herself. Martha, let's talk about her. Very classy,

471
00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:54.000
very classy and kind woman. Martha was in her forties

472
00:29:54.039 --> 00:29:57.640
whenever she moved back to the property, and she devoted

473
00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:03.279
an incredible amount of time and money restoring and updating

474
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:08.039
the beautiful home to be a popular wedding event type

475
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:10.559
of venue. Now, when I say a credible amount of money,

476
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:12.880
I'll just give you this tidbit because you're listening. The

477
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:16.359
house didn't have air conditioning because of how old it was.

478
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:20.680
When air conditioning first came about, her grandfather had put

479
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:23.759
in window units okay all over this house. Well that's

480
00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:27.039
like a monstrosity now in the nineties. So she took

481
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:28.960
all of those out and paid tons of money to

482
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:32.640
have central air put into the house. So those big

483
00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:37.279
investments were made. But this this is where Buddha comes

484
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.400
in that I mentioned because Martha was a practicing Buddhist.

485
00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:44.799
And while I do not claim, by any stretch of

486
00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:49.000
the imagination, to be an expert in Buddhism, I can

487
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:52.400
tell you that I am able to do research and

488
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:54.839
I'm willing to do it. And this is what I found.

489
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:59.759
I actually found exactly what I expected. But in Buddhist psychology,

490
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:04.880
forgiveness is understood as a way to end your own suffering.

491
00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:11.720
By forgiving someone, you can bring dignity and harmony into

492
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:15.440
your own life. And basically what I'm saying is forgiveness

493
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.599
is for your own sake. It's for your own mental health,

494
00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:22.640
and it's a way of letting go of the pain

495
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:26.279
that we carry. And that's not exclusive to Buddhism, obviously,

496
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:31.759
that extends across other religions. But there was one way

497
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.119
that this was illustrated to me on a Buddhist website

498
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:37.359
that I went to, and it was just this little

499
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.039
quip okay that it explained it with. It said, two

500
00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:43.920
ex prisoners of war met up after many years, and

501
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:47.119
the first one asked, have you forgiven our captors yet?

502
00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:51.319
And the second man answered no, never. And then the

503
00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:55.000
first man replied, well, then they still have you in prison.

504
00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:58.200
And I thought that was incredible. That's a great way

505
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:03.319
of explaining this. Well. Martha, in practicing her Buddhism, she

506
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:07.319
believed in this concept of letting go to heal not

507
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:10.319
only her own pain with the loss of her beloved

508
00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:15.000
mother and her cousin, but also to possibly maybe absolve

509
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:17.759
the killer of the pain that he was sitting in.

510
00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:24.319
So after collecting your thoughts and realizing, look, I can

511
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:29.039
actually actively help in my own healing, Martha did this

512
00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:34.559
very thing, and she made the extraordinary decision to reach

513
00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:40.119
out to her mother's murderer in prison. Now today, I

514
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:41.960
want you to know, as I'm recording this in twenty

515
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:46.119
twenty six, this type of situation is a much more

516
00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:51.079
regulated and overseen process than it necessarily was back when

517
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:54.440
Martha did this. Okay, this experience today is referred to

518
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:58.440
as victim offender dialogue. It's much more curated than anyone

519
00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:02.279
would probably ever stand unless you've been through it. So

520
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.720
let me tell you real quick before I go forward

521
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:07.640
in the story, I want to tell you why it's

522
00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:11.319
curated the way it is. A great deal of preparation

523
00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:16.839
goes into these meetings as victims and offenders, because the

524
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:19.119
victim and the offender have to be on the same

525
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:23.200
page when this meeting is allowed. Okay, they've got to

526
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:26.119
go into this with the same understanding of why they

527
00:33:26.359 --> 00:33:29.640
are meeting. Because there are studies that have been done.

528
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:31.200
You can look this up on your own. Actually, I

529
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:33.400
may link one. I make a note to myself. I'm

530
00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:36.559
a link one in a Patreon if you're a nerd

531
00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:37.839
like me and you want to go check it out

532
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:40.920
so you can see what I'm talking about. But there

533
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:43.920
are studies that have been done that showed that victims

534
00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:47.359
who participated in a face to face encounter with their

535
00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:51.319
offenders are they're much more likely to be satisfied with

536
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:55.799
the justice process altogether, versus victims who only go through

537
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:59.240
the traditional system of Okay, this guy killed my mom,

538
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:00.559
he's not going to prison and for the rest of

539
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:02.480
his life if they cut it off there, and so

540
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:05.279
it actually shows that it's beneficial to the victim to

541
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:10.239
participate in this. Now, victims who participated in these type

542
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:15.440
of conferences also expressed feelings of empowerment within the justice process,

543
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:19.679
and they said that they felt higher levels of emotional healing.

544
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:25.559
Now that said, these types of meetings can also go very,

545
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:30.760
very wrong if the offender has allterior motives whenever they

546
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:33.400
go in. For example, if they go into this wanting

547
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:36.519
to plead their case or just tell the victim's daughter,

548
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:39.880
I didn't do this, I didn't do this. Okay, that

549
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:44.519
causes risk, an unnecessary risk to the victims because it

550
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:49.719
may retraumatize these victims and they may learn things that

551
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:53.920
are just completely inappropriate or should not be brought up.

552
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:58.079
So this is why there are rules to this type

553
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:03.639
of dialogue. If it happens, and they call it restorative justice,

554
00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:06.440
but these are the basic rules, okay. Number One, the

555
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:10.920
victim has to initiate the meeting. The offender can never

556
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:12.679
initiate it. You're not going to get to kill my

557
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.639
mom and then write me and say, hey, i'd like

558
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:19.199
to apologize. Maybe I don't want your apology. Maybe I

559
00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:21.159
want you to leave me the fuck alone. How about

560
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:25.440
we start there, because that can be the response. Number Two,

561
00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:30.159
the victim will always get to lead the process, so

562
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:34.639
to speak. The offender will not lead the victim will.

563
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:38.519
Sensitivity to the victim is a requirement, it is not

564
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:42.599
a suggestion, and the entire process must provide for an

565
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:48.280
empowering outcome for the victim. You have been convicted. You

566
00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:51.599
don't have the power here. The victim does. And if

567
00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:54.440
any of these rules are broken or it starts going south,

568
00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:58.440
administrators can very quickly and immediately remove the offender out

569
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.440
of the room, stop it. The victim is limited in

570
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:05.519
their harm. So basically, the reason I want to tell

571
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.440
you this is because the victim must not use this

572
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:12.880
process as a crutch for trying to garner sympathy or

573
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:17.280
gain points for agreeing to apologize that they then turn

574
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:19.800
around and say, hey, I apologize though, you should parole

575
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.880
me out, you should let me out early. That's why

576
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:25.400
it is the way it is today. Okay, it should

577
00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:28.039
be genuine, but the victim has to want it. So

578
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:31.400
let's jump back now into Martha's story. Well, Martha had

579
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:35.119
decided to reach out to Travis, with her Buddhist beliefs

580
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:38.880
of forgiveness being the driving factor. But the way they

581
00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:43.800
did this was through writing letters, and over time the

582
00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:48.719
two began writing one another and through the years actually

583
00:36:48.760 --> 00:36:52.360
ended up striking up somewhat of a friendship. Maybe I

584
00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:54.039
shouldn't call it that, Maybe I should call it an

585
00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:59.440
understanding of now two adult minds agreeing that what happened

586
00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:03.840
was horrible. It should have never taken place. And you

587
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:08.280
know they agree, you know, as Travis grew up that

588
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.360
this should have just never happened. So as the years

589
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:15.440
passed and they continue to write, and they got closer Travis.

590
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:17.400
You got to remember he was facing twenty eight and

591
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:21.119
a half years in prison, but the opportunity for parole

592
00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:28.360
eventually did come twenty three years after the murder of

593
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:33.920
her mother and her cousin. Martha now believed that Travis

594
00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:38.960
had been rehabilitated and that he deserved a second chance.

595
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:43.960
She believed in this so much that she actually spoke

596
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:48.159
to the parole board and she expressed her belief in him,

597
00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:51.280
in the fact that he had changed. She said, I

598
00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:56.000
do not any longer hold anger. I do not feel

599
00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:01.320
a need for vengeance, and she, basically, as the living

600
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:07.920
victim of this crime, supported her offender's early release on parole. Now,

601
00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:12.199
I do not have the physical documentation to tell you

602
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.599
exactly what was said at the parole meeting, but I

603
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.760
do know that they have to look into the offender's

604
00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:23.840
behavior in prison as well as his willingness to accept

605
00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:26.679
responsibility for his crime before they're going to even budge

606
00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:30.960
so with that said, I'm assuming they looked into all

607
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:35.480
of this. When they weighed everything, the parole board decided

608
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:40.079
that Travis should get an early second chance, and they

609
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:45.280
granted him parole. They let him out after a double murder.

610
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:48.639
He had done a lot of growing in those years,

611
00:38:48.679 --> 00:38:51.679
they felt, but there is a lot at stake when

612
00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:55.039
you release an offender early, especially one that is a

613
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:59.840
double murderer. And in this case, he was sixteen when

614
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:02.480
he did this. Travis was now, at the time of

615
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:06.559
his release, a full grown, thirty nine year old man.

616
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.840
If he was a troubled and horrible teenager who made

617
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.639
a rash decision to end to people's lives, well by now,

618
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:19.280
at thirty nine years old, he definitely knows better. And

619
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.920
when Travis walked out of that prison a freeman, he

620
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:27.440
had the world at his fingertips. Not only that, but

621
00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:31.039
he had been offered an extraordinary and that's the only

622
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:36.880
word that I can use to describe this, an extraordinary opportunity,

623
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:45.199
because Martha wanted to help Travis get back on his feet.

624
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:50.079
Felons have a very hard time gaining employment. We know this.

625
00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:53.400
No one wants to hire a felon, and no one

626
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:57.400
definitely wants to hire a double murderer felon. I think

627
00:39:57.400 --> 00:40:02.559
we can all agree on that. So this is one

628
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:05.360
of the biggest reasons that recidivism rates or people returning

629
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:07.480
to prison, why it's so high. It's one of the

630
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:11.599
reasons because if criminals can't support themselves financially, criminals then

631
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:14.119
will often revert back to their prior behaviors and in

632
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:17.960
this case like burglary. Because as of twenty twenty four,

633
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:19.119
I want you to know I did go do a

634
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:21.679
brief check on this, rates in the US were between

635
00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:25.400
recidivism rates were between thirty four and fifty nine percent

636
00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:29.760
of prisoners returning to prison within three years of release.

637
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:34.559
That's horrible that you know upwards of sixty percent fifty

638
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:36.599
nine percent are going to go back. That's terrible. That's

639
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:39.039
a terrible stat And if you want to know, California

640
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:42.280
was the worst and South Carolina was the lowest. There

641
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:44.199
you go a little fun fact there. Well, in the

642
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:48.599
face of this information, she genuinely wanted his life to

643
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:51.679
be something. And I can't help but feel like she

644
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:56.360
wanted this so much because if he changed his life,

645
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:58.960
if he did become a better person, then the loss

646
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:02.320
of her mother and her cousin wouldn't be for nothing.

647
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:05.000
That's how I would feel, And so I can't help

648
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.280
but think she thought that if he hadn't changed, then

649
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:09.840
they died for nothing. But if he did and he

650
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:13.519
turned his life around, they in some way made their

651
00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:18.320
mark further on the world by bettering someone. Obviously she

652
00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:20.000
didn't tell me this, okay, but I just feel that

653
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:22.840
in my soul. So, in an effort to give Travis

654
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:27.480
every opportunity available to succeed, Martha offered him a job

655
00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:32.639
at the now prestigious Snowdon House as a groundskeeper. You

656
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:36.039
have a woman here of incredible strength to not only

657
00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:41.280
forgive this man, but to also have the capacity for

658
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:45.000
forgiveness beyond. Okay, she went above and beyond, and she

659
00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:48.719
gave Travis this offer, and he gladly accepted the offer.

660
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:52.079
If there was ever a story I could tell you

661
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:59.199
about beautiful redemption, this one would be it. Imagine something

662
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:03.400
so horrible going full circle and the killer ending right

663
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:07.000
back up at the very property where it all had begun.

664
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:12.440
But Martha kept her word, y'all, and Travis he showed

665
00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:17.519
up to work. As her confidence in him grew, she

666
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:21.079
gave him a place to live on the property as well.

667
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:26.280
For a year they worked side by side, and Martha

668
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:30.719
was healing tremendously emotionally from all that she had been

669
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:34.920
enduring and suffering for all of these years. And Travis too, y'all,

670
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:37.599
he was able to work in a beautiful environment, a

671
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:41.000
stark contrast from the nearly thirty years spent in prison,

672
00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:46.400
and both of them were thriving now to know just

673
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:48.719
how amazing this place was. I want to put something

674
00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:51.840
into perspective for you too. It depends on how old

675
00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:54.920
you are. But have you ever seen the movie The Client, y'all?

676
00:42:54.920 --> 00:42:56.719
Remember that old movie. It's an older one that has

677
00:42:56.719 --> 00:42:59.400
Susan Sarandon in it, and the story takes place in

678
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:02.800
both ten to see in New Orleans. Well, guess what

679
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:07.679
if you've seen it. That beautiful home, that stunning home

680
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:11.159
that is in all of the New Orleans scenes in

681
00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:15.239
that movie, We'll guess what that is none other than

682
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.440
the very Snowden House that I've been talking about this

683
00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:25.960
whole time. What a history this house has held to date. Well,

684
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:30.199
it was a Tuesday, March the twenty fourth, when it

685
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:34.079
was business as usual at the Snowden House. The home

686
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:36.719
was in the midst of being used as a bed

687
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:39.599
and breakfast, amongst all the other things I've mentioned, when

688
00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:43.119
Martha had made arrangements to sell one of the large

689
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:48.000
chandeliers to an admirer. And this wasn't just any chandelier, y'all.

690
00:43:48.039 --> 00:43:50.880
This had tons of history, and it cost a whopping

691
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:55.920
ten grand to buy this chandelier, so obviously this was

692
00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:58.519
going to be a big undertaking to sell. And once

693
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:01.400
the sale was complete, the buyers were grinning ear to

694
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:04.280
ear as they counted out the cash to purchase it.

695
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.599
One hundred, two hundred, three hundred, and so on. They

696
00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:10.719
counted out all the cash until all ten thousand dollars

697
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:14.559
was accounted for and placed in Martha's hand. So Martha

698
00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:17.360
and the buyers shook hands, and then they were soon

699
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:20.039
off on their way with their beautiful new piece of history.

700
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:23.400
And Martha had plans to go to the bank on

701
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:25.800
the following day, which would have been a Wednesday, So

702
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:29.239
until then she went, and she stashed the cash in

703
00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:32.599
a room in the home away from prying eyes or

704
00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:35.639
the public or anyone to know anything about this cash.

705
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:40.599
Business for the day was now concluded, and when Martha

706
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:42.239
went at the end of the day to go grab

707
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:46.679
the cash that she had stowed. It was gone, all

708
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:51.639
of it, all ten grand was gone. Now, at first,

709
00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:53.760
I'm sure she wondered, wait, wait, wait, did I move it?

710
00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:55.639
Did I? What the hell? What did I did? I

711
00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:58.280
put it here? She searches quickly through these drawers or wherever.

712
00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:02.719
But it was gone, and no one else was at

713
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:06.679
the house. Matter of fact, no one else had even

714
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:11.039
been at the house after the sale. Well, of course,

715
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:15.679
one person was an exception to that, and it was Travis.

716
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:19.760
But he worked the grounds. He wouldn't have been in

717
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:23.199
the house. He wouldn't he wouldn't steal from her. And

718
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:27.000
she just shook her head as the realization hit her.

719
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:30.880
The only person who was there on the property, at

720
00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:37.519
the house was Travis. Martha's kindness and her forgiveness and

721
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:41.800
her extension of the olive branch to try and do

722
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.800
something wonderful over the last twenty four years, it had

723
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:49.559
just been thrown right back in her face, just like

724
00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:55.360
hot ash slung in her face. Frustration and anger began

725
00:45:55.760 --> 00:46:02.760
to boil over. No, no, apps a fucking lutely not. No.

726
00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:06.519
Martha was not gonna just take this one on the chin.

727
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:11.280
This time, the disgust was just over the top. She

728
00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:14.519
did as she thought was right. She gave this man

729
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:18.920
every single opportunity to better himself, and this is how

730
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:24.800
he repaid her. She was done. Martha immediately called Travis

731
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:27.039
and she confronted him with the fact that the money

732
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:30.920
was missing. You were the only person here. And she

733
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:33.719
didn't even want an explanation, She didn't want anything from him.

734
00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:36.320
She just told him, do not return to this house

735
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:41.639
ever again. You are fired. Do not ever cross my

736
00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:45.880
path again. The end. And that was a wrap on

737
00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:48.519
all of this. The friendship between the two was severed

738
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:51.519
beyond any repair, and she was just washing her hands

739
00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:56.920
of this altogether. This will never be She probably felt

740
00:46:56.920 --> 00:47:02.599
foolish in that moment. Unfortunately, felt very foolish. And all

741
00:47:02.679 --> 00:47:05.280
she had to do. All she had to do was

742
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:08.239
make a phone call to his parole officer and let

743
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:12.079
him know what had happened. And Travis it he would

744
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:14.159
be heading straight back to prison. He would have to

745
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:16.079
go serve out the remainder of his sentence because he

746
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:18.559
was on parole and he deserved it at this point

747
00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:24.239
for damn sure, right. But Martha didn't do that. Martha

748
00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:30.800
went to bed that night, absolutely heartbroken, mad, and full

749
00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:36.679
of feelings of betrayal beyond words. She believed him when

750
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:40.719
he had said he was sorry for stealing her mother.

751
00:47:42.039 --> 00:47:45.760
She believed him when he said he wasn't actually the

752
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:50.559
person who killed her mother all those years ago. Yes,

753
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:54.519
in their writings, he said I was there, but I

754
00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:58.159
didn't pull the trigger. He said it was his buddy

755
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:01.039
who was doing the robbing with him. He did not

756
00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:04.679
shoot her parents, or her mother and her cousin. But

757
00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:08.000
he was so, so very sorry for evening and even

758
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:10.920
being a part of it. He told her that she

759
00:48:11.079 --> 00:48:15.679
believed it, hook line and sinker. But now now she

760
00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:18.880
knew for certain that she had been fooled. All of

761
00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:22.400
her energy and her time and her forgiveness just to

762
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:25.079
be made a complete fool of it was enough to

763
00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:29.119
make her want to scream. All she needed at this point, though,

764
00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:31.480
as she started to just try to calm down, was

765
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:33.800
a good night's sleep, and then in the morning she

766
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.840
would be arrested. She could regroup, and then she could

767
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:39.440
get back to work and just handle business like she

768
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:42.639
did every day of her life. That following morning, as

769
00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:45.239
I told you, was a Wednesday, Wednesday, March the twenty fifth,

770
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:49.320
and in the early morning hours, an alarm at the

771
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:54.559
Snowden house was set off. No one answered the calls

772
00:48:54.599 --> 00:48:58.760
for confirmation from the alarm company, and police were dispatched

773
00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:02.280
en route to the home. So they arrived quickly. They

774
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:05.480
exited their vehicles and they were looking around, scanning the

775
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:09.280
area for anyone there, but no one was around. So

776
00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:13.159
the officers then quietly and carefully went around to check

777
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:15.360
the exterior of the home and to see if there

778
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:17.599
was any entry point that could have caused the alarm,

779
00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:20.320
and that's when they noticed that the back door of

780
00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:24.719
the home was open. So they approached the door and

781
00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:28.599
they called out, making their presence known, Sheriff's office, police office, whatever.

782
00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:33.280
But as they cautiously entered that open doorway, they looked

783
00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:36.960
about the grand entry and they didn't see anyone. But

784
00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:41.039
their eyes were immediately drawn up to that grand staircase,

785
00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:44.559
but not because of its beauty, but rather the fact

786
00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:47.880
that there was a person lying at the top of it.

787
00:49:48.920 --> 00:49:51.280
So officers ran up the stairs to check on the person,

788
00:49:51.320 --> 00:49:53.000
and they found it to be a woman, and she

789
00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:57.840
was in terrible condition. She was bloodied, she was battered,

790
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:01.199
and they recognized her as ma Artha, and she was

791
00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:04.960
lying next to a bag of personal effects. But before

792
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:07.559
the officers could even render aid to her or even

793
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:09.880
attempt to help her, they had to clear the home.

794
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:12.079
They had to make sure that the suspect or whoever

795
00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:14.519
had potentially done this. They needed to know that they

796
00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:17.519
weren't waiting in the home to ambush them and then

797
00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:19.440
them not be able to help her. This is a

798
00:50:19.559 --> 00:50:21.320
large home, I know, I've said that one hundred times.

799
00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:23.800
There were a million places that someone could hide. So

800
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:27.159
with guns drawn and carefully having each other's backs, the

801
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:31.639
two officers methodically and tactically cleared the home. When an

802
00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:36.559
officer just was spooked because he came upon a man

803
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:40.119
hiding in the house. He was not expecting this obviously,

804
00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:42.760
I mean he was looking, but he certainly wasn't expecting it.

805
00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:45.119
And when he spooked that man that was hiding, that

806
00:50:45.159 --> 00:50:48.199
guy jumped up. He tore past the officer and took

807
00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:52.079
off running. The officers were step for step behind the man.

808
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:54.559
They were yelling for him to stop, stop, but he

809
00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:56.920
kept running. But he must have known the layout of

810
00:50:56.920 --> 00:50:59.679
the house well because there was a second story window

811
00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:03.079
and he jumped straight out of the second story window.

812
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:07.280
The officers continued with their pursuit as the man fell

813
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:10.199
to the ground and he started running across the property.

814
00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:12.760
So as they came outside, they watched him as he

815
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:16.239
jumped into a vehicle and tried to speed away. The

816
00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:19.199
officers were right on his tail as he took off

817
00:51:19.239 --> 00:51:21.880
in this vehicle, But the ground happened to be very

818
00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:24.840
soggy that day, and the getaway vehicle that the man

819
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:28.559
was in began to bog down into the mud. He

820
00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:31.360
gassed it hard. He tried to swerve side to side

821
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:33.639
to kind of work the vehicle out, but he just

822
00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:36.280
couldn't get it. And the more he dug or he

823
00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:39.800
pressed the accelerator, the more the car dug down into

824
00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:42.360
the earth. So, realizing that he couldn't go any further,

825
00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:44.960
the suspect jumped out of the truck and took off

826
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:48.679
running on foot. So these officers are running behind him

827
00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:51.559
now they're updating dispatch on their radio that were on foot.

828
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:54.440
We got a pursuit, single mail, and they continued giving

829
00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:58.039
chase across the property. So as the trio was running,

830
00:51:58.599 --> 00:52:02.519
they came up on the famous lake, the one that

831
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:05.679
everyone loved so much that they had built houses upond

832
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:08.039
for its beauty. The cabins were built on all of this.

833
00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:12.239
And whether the man slipped or he got so gassed

834
00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:15.039
from running away that he just chose to jump in

835
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:17.599
the lake as a last means of escape, that's actually

836
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:21.639
pretty unclear. No one really knows. But either way, the

837
00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:26.519
suspect went under the water. But the thing was, he

838
00:52:26.599 --> 00:52:31.679
never resurfaced. He never showed again at the top of

839
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:35.760
the water, so the chase ended pretty much at the

840
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:38.719
edge of the water for now. Now I want you

841
00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:41.559
to remember, this is a massive waterway. This is not

842
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:47.519
a little tiny pond, Okay, it's big. So the alert

843
00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:49.920
now that police are putting out that we've got a

844
00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:53.719
suspect that's we can't find this was now amplified by

845
00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:57.000
the fact that Martha was tended to and she was dead.

846
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:03.320
Martha had been murdered, a murder suspect was lost by

847
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:06.079
the police and no one knew where he was. So

848
00:53:06.119 --> 00:53:08.599
the residents are all put on high alert. They're locking

849
00:53:08.679 --> 00:53:11.480
their doors, they're all remaining vigilant and looking around their

850
00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:14.000
property for any sign of this guy believed to have

851
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:19.159
murdered Martha. But when hours passed and there were no sightings,

852
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:22.159
of this fleeing suspect. The police hadn't just said oh

853
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.239
well and thrown their hands up. No, they went and

854
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:28.280
they enlisted the help of local wildlife and fisheries officials

855
00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:32.599
who used sonar to search for any signs of the man.

856
00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:34.960
And this actually turned out to be a good move

857
00:53:35.559 --> 00:53:39.840
because sonar showed that there was a body at the

858
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:45.119
bottom of this lake. So they locate exactly where the

859
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:48.719
body is, They go in and divers pull out this body,

860
00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:52.440
and sure enough, it was fitting the description of the

861
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:56.159
suspect that police had been chasing. When he jumped into

862
00:53:56.159 --> 00:54:00.400
the water, the suspect believed to have murdered Martha had

863
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:05.239
drowned and he was dead as well. So both bodies,

864
00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:09.320
Martha and the suspected killer were sent for autopsy, and

865
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:13.719
the identification of the man who murdered Martha would come

866
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:17.559
as an absolute shock, stun. I don't even know what

867
00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:20.400
the word would be to their family, to her family,

868
00:54:21.039 --> 00:54:24.599
because the man pulled from the lake was none other

869
00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:31.800
than Travis Lewis, the very man that Martha had extended

870
00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:37.519
her hand to and shown compassion for above far far

871
00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:41.360
above what most people would ever even consider. He had

872
00:54:41.400 --> 00:54:45.639
not only murdered her mother and her cousin, but now

873
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:50.360
also robbed and murdered Martha as well at the very

874
00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:57.960
same property twenty three years apart. This is almost Shakespearean

875
00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:02.480
in tragedy in a w way. You know. Back when

876
00:55:02.480 --> 00:55:08.119
Travis was first found guilty, Martha's family spoke out against

877
00:55:08.199 --> 00:55:12.320
Travis getting the death penalty for killing her mother and cousin.

878
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:16.039
They didn't want him to get the death penalty. And

879
00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:19.719
then Martha chose to forgive Travis for killing her mother

880
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:23.880
and her cousin. Martha advocated all those years later giving

881
00:55:23.960 --> 00:55:27.559
him a second chance. Martha offered him not only a

882
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:33.519
job but a home, and Travis repaid her with burglary

883
00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:41.039
and ultimately an horrific death. So what did all of

884
00:55:41.079 --> 00:55:46.719
those years in prison teach Travis? And the answer, my friends,

885
00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:57.239
is nothing, absolutely nothing. It's episodes like this that have

886
00:55:57.400 --> 00:56:00.559
me reflect on things that have been said to me

887
00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:03.400
as a podcast host and things that have been said

888
00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:08.880
about me as a podcast host, things like, oh, Kelly,

889
00:56:08.920 --> 00:56:12.320
you're too harsh on people. Kelly, people can change, Kelly,

890
00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:16.039
you're hateful, Kelly, you don't like people, and blah blah

891
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:17.960
blah blah blah blah blah. Let me tell you something

892
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:19.800
about me, and I'm not trying to make this story

893
00:56:19.840 --> 00:56:22.559
about me. This is about us as a people. Okay,

894
00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:25.800
I'm just using me as the example. I am not hateful.

895
00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:29.760
I am what we call a realist, because if twenty

896
00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:34.679
three years in prison cannot teach someone that murder and

897
00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:39.360
theft is wrong, then I'm not mean. I am telling

898
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:43.119
hard truths that people don't want to hear, and this

899
00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:49.079
episode serves as proof of that everyone does not deserve

900
00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:54.960
a second chance period. There is also a temptation here

901
00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:58.559
to think that what I'm saying is forgiveness is foolish,

902
00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:00.519
but please do not be so quick to hear what

903
00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:07.239
I'm not saying. Forgiveness is powerful and it's freeing in

904
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:11.239
a multitude of ways. I'm all about people changing, i

905
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:16.960
am all about forgiveness, but forgiveness has to come with limits.

906
00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:20.599
Let this case be in your mind when you are

907
00:57:20.599 --> 00:57:26.199
making moves in your own life. Forgiveness cannot come at

908
00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:31.480
the expense of your safety. Goodness and trust do not coincide,

909
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:35.119
and they are mutually exclusive to one another. They are

910
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:38.800
not one in the same. Please be kind to people,

911
00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:41.679
even at times when they don't deserve it, because that

912
00:57:41.800 --> 00:57:46.639
is a reflection on you and your character. Also, please

913
00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:50.519
forgive if you can again, that's for you and your

914
00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:55.280
well being. But recognize that kindness and forgiveness do not

915
00:57:55.719 --> 00:58:00.199
equal access. You can be kind and forgive while also

916
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:04.360
limiting access to yourself. You can be kind, and you

917
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:08.119
can forgive and be full of goodness without the additional

918
00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:13.639
expense of your safety. You can wish someone healing and prosperity,

919
00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:18.360
but from a distance, you can wholeheartedly believe in redemption

920
00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:24.159
while also declaring but not with me. It's okay to

921
00:58:24.280 --> 00:58:30.840
make that distinction, because compassion without boundaries isn't bravery, it's exposure,

922
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:34.360
and this can extend to many things that we are

923
00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:38.679
now experiencing in this world. Grace must be paired with wisdom.

924
00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:44.679
When someone lies to you, when someone disrespects you, when

925
00:58:44.679 --> 00:58:49.320
they betray you, or they steamroll your boundaries, it doesn't

926
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:52.239
become a puzzle that you need to solve. It is

927
00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:55.519
a resume and it was just handed to you in

928
00:58:55.719 --> 00:59:00.280
bold with references, because people are not that confus using.

929
00:59:01.599 --> 00:59:05.360
Forgive if you choose to forgive, heal if you choose

930
00:59:05.519 --> 00:59:10.800
to heal, But never think that your goodness requires you

931
00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:14.679
to stand unguarded in the path of someone who has

932
00:59:14.760 --> 00:59:19.519
already hurt you. And, above all else, when someone shows

933
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:36.039
you who they are, believe them.