Dec. 9, 2025

Hostile Divorce: The Case of Kayla Giles

Hostile Divorce: The Case of Kayla Giles
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Season 9

KJ breaks down this tragic story of a shooting in Alexandria, Louisiana during the fall of 2018 involving a wife, Kayla Giles Coutee murdering her estranged husband, Thomas Coutee,Jr., an MMA fighter and Welding Instructor at an Alexandria Wal-Mart during a custody exchange. 

Chapters 
06:42 Thomas and Kayla  07:11 The 911 Call
16:42 The Shooting Incident
19:43 Aftermath of the Shooting
32:08 Video Evidence Review
46:43 Battered Woman Syndrome Discussion
50:43 Children's Accounts of Violence
59:36 Kayla's Arrest and Charges
1:00:37 New Evidence Emerges

WEBVTT

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Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell

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stories of real crimes with real victims whose cases are

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so shocking that many are left wondering how is this

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even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections,

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and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator,

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dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so

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evil many feel they are unspeakable.

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Warning.

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Unspeakable as intended for mature audiences. If you are easily offended,

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then I'm not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey, y'all,

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kJ You're back with another episode of Unspeakable. What's happening?

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How is your week going? It's fantastic here. The weather

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is shit, but that's okay. That's no problem because that

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gives us more time to listen to the podcast. Right,

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you can sit inside or do whatever. And it's cold

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where I'm at? Is it cold where you are? Because

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Mama don't do well in the cold. I need it

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to be hot. I want to be out on the river.

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I want to be fishing, not cold in my house.

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All right, So I've got a banging episode for you

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this week. Worked really hard on this one as far

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as there is so much going on, and I know

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that this one's actually kind of popular, especially in Louisiana,

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so I wanted to make sure to cover it for you.

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Before I get started, though, I have to give some

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shout outs, and I will start loud and proud in Laplace, Louisiana,

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where Sarah Boudreau, girl, you better be smiling, you better

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be big cheesing right now. As I promised, I was

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giving you a shout out this next episode, so I'm

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saying hello, I'm waving to you in the camera, Sarah,

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so happy to have you. My family is actually Boudreaus,

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so we might be cousin. I'll say that all the time.

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Everybody's my cousin, right, So so happy to have you, Sarah.

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And then right here also in Denim Springs, Louisiana, and

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I know you personally, Melissa Burgess, how are you? Haven't

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seen you in a little bit, but I'm waving at

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you and it just made my day to see your

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name come across as a member of my crime family.

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And then we're gonna go to Thomasville, Georgia, where I

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have Marcia, and I believe this.

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Would be Popell Popell, Popell Popell. It's Popell.

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Hey, Marsha, what is going on in your neck of

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the woods. My friend, just my best friend actually just

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moved to Georgia. That's bittersweet, but maybe y'all will meet

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and y'all can be besties too. Then Greensboro, and this

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is Pennsylvania. We've got Lorie Cowie. Lori Cowie, what a

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cute name. How are you doing, Lori Cowie over there

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in Greensboro. I hope that you're having the best time

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this week and that you see me waving at you

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in the camera. And then, last, but not least, all

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the way from California is gonna be Miss Holly Pritchett.

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Hi, Holly.

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Please tell everybody that I said all the way over there,

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never been there, but I do have plans to make

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it your way now. Like I said, we are going

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to be staying in my home state of Louisiana for

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this episode. And if you have been around at all,

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you probably have heard about this case and I took

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a deep dive for you. So we are going to

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go all the way to Alexandria, Louisiana.

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And this is not a city too far from me.

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It's located right in central Louisiana, and specifically this is

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going to be in Rapid's Parish and it sits roughly

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halfway between Lafayette and Shreveport. And it's the ninth largest

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city in the state if you're curious about what type

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of or what size this area is. And it lies

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right on the south bank of the Red River. And

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that city is known as the heart of Louisiana since

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it literally sits right in the middle of the state

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and it operates much like the rest of our state does,

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full of you know, Cajun people and Southern Baptist beliefs.

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It's different, I guess from other areas, depending if you

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go north or south, but right there in the central area,

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you know, they're right in the heart of things. So

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while certainly not country life, it does maintain that old

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time feel. It's known for cotton and sugar and alfalfa,

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and then it's got these bayous that lazily, you know,

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make their way through the state and through that area

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full of wildlife, ones like Byou Rapids, by you Robert.

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All of these are are known for that in that area.

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So Alexandra is going to be home to a lot

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of people. And this is gonna include Thomas and Kayla Kuti.

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Now this isn't kuti or koty like you have cooties. No,

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this is from French roots and it's pronounced kooti. Fun fact,

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by the way, the name originates from the word kutil,

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which refers to somebody that sold like this mattress ticking,

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which is a type of strong cotton drill. But koutil

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is Parisian French. And down here we got more kuon

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ass going on than anything. And so cooton if I believe,

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if I remember that correctly, that would be the kun

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as cage and way to say cotton.

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So there's that. Now, while you may not speak French,

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you should know your letters and so can you say

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m m A, of course you can. Well, let's talk

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about some of the people in this case and how

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MMA fighting plays a role in it. So Thomas Kuti

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had a hobby that he loved so much that.

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He was hoping that, I don't know, maybe he could

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go pro one day. We all dream, right in some fashion,

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that we make it to the top of our game.

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And so while Thomas worked as a welding instructor at

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Central Louisiana Technical College, that was his official job that

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paid the bills. He also loved to fight, and he

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was no professional by any means, like I said, but

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he aspired to be a great fighter one day. Nobody

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gets in the ring not wanting to be the best.

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But for now he was just an amateur. He stood

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six feet one inch tall. He weighed roughly two hundred

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and fifteen pounds, which would put him in the light

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heavyweight category on his card, and his welding job is

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what put food on the table. But his passion for

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mma was undeniable. So he was known as Thomas Hitman

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Couti and he had a record of four wins and

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one loss. And he also loved to race all terrain vehicles.

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This is a dude's dude.

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If ever there was so welding, fighting and racing.

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What more can I say that would prove this point

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to you that he was just a dude's dude. And Kayla,

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his wife, she was a catch as well, but she

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has a tiny little thing. She stood about five foot two,

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one hundred and fourteen pounds, but she carried a sassy

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punch with her and they say that dynamite comes in

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small packages, so she would definitely exemplify that statement. She

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was an Army veteran, but after her contract ended, she

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didn't just up and completely leave the military in her

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past because she was working for the Veterans Affairs Office,

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which serves to aid veterans in their healthcare benefits things

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along those lines. Now, these are just two regular people

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living their regular lives. When on September the eighth of

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twenty eighteen, at around eleven am, a nine to one

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one call came into dispatch. This was a shots fired

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call and it was right outside of the local walmart

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in Alexandria, Louisiana, and basically stated a man was down.

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So when police arrived, they did find a man on

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the ground. He was being worked on and based on

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witnesses at the scene, he had been receiving CPR prior

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to even I think the paramedics arriving. Some help had

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been given to him and they too continued working on

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him once the medics got there. Upon their arrival, now,

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while securing the scene, it was realized that the man

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on the ground was Thomas Kotie and his estranged now wife, Kayla,

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was also on the scene.

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So obviously this was very interesting.

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So police wanted to ask some questions as to what

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exactly had taken place.

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For the shooting to have taken place.

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So Kayla was calm at the scene, but she was

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on her phone initially before police were able to get

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to her and to speak with her when they were

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trying to kind of settle the area. And you're always

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told one thing. Maybe you haven't been told this, but

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this is a very common thing that you would be told,

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and that is that anytime that you may be involved

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in a potentially dangerous situation or one in which you

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might be looked at as possibly a suspect, you definitely

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should never speak to the police in that type of situation. Now,

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every cop in America right now is going shut up, Kelly, No,

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that's not true. I get what you're saying. But as

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far as a defense attorney would say, they would tell you,

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don't speak to the police, wait until you have an

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attorney present. But sometimes it just isn't that simple. So

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at first, when the police wanted to speak with her,

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Kayla was hesitant because of that very notion of hey,

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you know, you shouldn't speak.

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To the police.

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However, once she got to the police station, things became

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much more tense, and she felt that she needed to

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tell them everything to clear the air. So before I

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get into what that questioning was, let me tell you

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a little bit about Thomas and Kayla so that she

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can become more acquainted with what the all around situation

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was at the time of this shooting at Walmart. So

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when the first two when the two first met, they

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were both in their twenties. Kayla was one year older

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than Thomas, and they were obviously attracted to one another physically,

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but that was at first, and then that would grow

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into a meaningful relationship well beyond the physical within time.

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So Kayla was a pretty little thing, long brown hair,

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almond shaped, brown eyes, tiny little features all the way around.

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While Thomas was a handsome guy too, in a very

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i would say, country rugged type of way. So like,

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if you like testosterone, very obvious in your guy, he's

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your type. He wasn't bulging with muscles or anything like that.

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But he was fit, he was tall, he was manly.

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He had this average guy's short brown haircut, and he

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had a brown goateee. That was his typical look from

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day to day. So as the relationship had become more serious,

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Thomas knew that loving Kayla would also mean he had

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to love every part of her, including the fact that

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she was already a mother not of just one child,

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but of two from a previous relationship. But luckily for her,

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this was not an issue for him, and when he

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finally proposed to Kayla, he did so with the full

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intention of a loving stepfather to her children. The couple

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was overjoyed to announce their engagement, and they eventually would

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seal the deal in Waco, Texas on October twenty fourth

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of twenty fourteen. So soon thereafter, as you can probably expect,

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the couple would find out that they were expecting a

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child together, and this was just a beautiful moment that

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they were just both over the moon to not only

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have their children through this marriage, but now they're going

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to share a child, at least biologically, right through their union.

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And blended families can be difficult, but considering the older

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two girls were still really little, the transition would prove

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very very smooth. Everyone loves a baby, especially two little

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girls who are going to be promoted to big sisters,

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and after waiting a few weeks, they found out that

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they would be big sisters to none other than another

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little sister. No boys in this house. Poor Thomas was

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going to be completely and totally outnumbered in the household.

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And I think everybody goes into a marriage expecting things

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to last forever and to be wonderful, and.

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Let's at least hope.

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So why did you jump into a marriage if you didn't.

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But as is all too common, after the baby was born,

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things just began to unravel. The tensions of life and responsibilities,

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all of it just became a lot, and the fighting

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failed to have negotiation within it, and it just began

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to escalate. And although it wasn't what they expected starting out,

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their marriage was destined basically for failure. An inability to

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compromise and an inability to work through and try to

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have issue resolution would send their marriage into an absolute spiral.

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So the couple would remain married for only about four

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years before they decided they were just going to call

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it quits, and they officially separated on February second of

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twenty eighteen. Now Thomas would be the one who would

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officially file for the divorce and start those proceedings, and

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things seem to be moving along just as amicably as

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you could expect when people no longer want.

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To be together.

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But the courts did have to get involved to help

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them mitigate their differences and the separation of their lives.

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And the main thing that was being considered as far

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00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:28.399
as the parents were concerned, was who would have custody

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00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:33.559
of their shared biological daughter. Neither side wanted to give

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00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:38.240
up their rights or give up their time with the child,

237
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and so that was the whole issue that was at

238
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the forefront of everything. Who would get to have her

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00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:48.720
for holidays and birthdays and everything that every friggin divorcing

240
00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:52.559
family across America likely argues. And I mean, hell, they

241
00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:54.559
couldn't get along in their marriage, so they sure as

242
00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:56.519
hell weren't going to be getting along when it was over,

243
00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:00.360
you know. And we're supposed to be making these these

244
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.559
agreements with one another. So the courts were doing their part,

245
00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:07.480
and this included determining property settlement as well as things

246
00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:10.559
like who would be covering medical and dental coverage for

247
00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:14.840
the children or their child together, respectively. So they owned

248
00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:17.840
a home in Pineville, Louisiana, as well as about five

249
00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:20.679
acres of property in Rydell, Texas, and then they had

250
00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:24.320
two vehicles, nothing extravagant, but it still had to be

251
00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.879
dealt with. I mean, it's business as usual. So Kayla

252
00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:31.519
would be determined to be the one that would provide

253
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:34.559
the medical and the dental insurance for their daughter through

254
00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:37.080
the VA. So there was no problem there. That was

255
00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:40.399
a good thing. There was coverage. But six months after

256
00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:44.039
they separated and the divorce was now in full on

257
00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:48.000
in progress, they would find themselves in family court on

258
00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:52.519
August twentieth of twenty eighteen to get an official custody

259
00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.360
order from the judge. So, after weighing all of the

260
00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:00.679
information and considering what was thought to be in the

261
00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:04.200
best interest of the child, the judge decided it would

262
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:08.240
be best if they shared custody of their daughter. Now,

263
00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:12.600
the exact days or schedule, I don't have that to

264
00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.440
give you. I don't find that to be even relevant. Honestly,

265
00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:19.440
in the story, they were splitting custody in whatever manner

266
00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:22.279
that was set in the courts. I'm assuming it was

267
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:25.679
fifty to fifty with alternating weekends, which is very common.

268
00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.159
And you're like, Okay, well, why do you assume that, Kelly, Well,

269
00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:30.600
I'm a child of divorce. I've been through it myself.

270
00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.919
It's just something that I would assume to be the

271
00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:38.960
general idea. So while this to me would be a

272
00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:42.759
considered a win on both sides, I can see how

273
00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.639
this would be stressful as a mother and as a father,

274
00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:50.919
because a mama wants her baby all the time. You know,

275
00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:52.919
Mamas don't want to give up. That's our role is

276
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:54.759
to nurture and to love and to take care of

277
00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:58.480
And the thing is that that's the daddy's role too.

278
00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:02.759
Daddies feel the drive to protect and to provide and

279
00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:06.399
to love their children as well. So even with an

280
00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:12.120
order in place for the exchanges, things became more and

281
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.399
more contentious. It just was not improving. I would say.

282
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.840
The custody exchanges weren't going well either, and no matter

283
00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:24.879
what they fought. By the way, you can always do

284
00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:28.279
a custody exchange at a police station if you feel

285
00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:31.559
like things may go bad or may escalate. I'm just

286
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:33.639
throwing that out there. If you're going through this right now,

287
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.799
that's good advice. Take it or leave it. But custody

288
00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:40.200
exchanges can be done in the presence of law enforcement

289
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:44.120
if you're have any worries about that. So that's where

290
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:47.840
we will get to this shooting at Walmart, which despite

291
00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:51.200
heroic efforts that were given, they were unable to save

292
00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:55.000
Thomas Coote's life, and he's still lay dead on the

293
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:59.120
ground when Kayla left the scene to be questioned by police,

294
00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:02.320
and it was pretty clear that something had gone sideways,

295
00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:07.519
and Kayla readily admitted that she had shot and ultimately

296
00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:12.279
killed her estranged husband right there in that Walmart parking lot.

297
00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:16.359
But there was one pretty big detail to this that

298
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:20.839
to me, adds so much more devastation to the already

299
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:26.880
horrible situation. All three of these little girls were there

300
00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.759
and watched it happen with their own little eyes. All

301
00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:36.000
three of these baby girls were right there, only two

302
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:40.000
years old, five years old, and seven years old, and

303
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:44.319
they watched their father and stepfather be shot by their

304
00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:48.480
mother and then he collapse right there in front of

305
00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:53.759
them during what should have been a simple custody exchange.

306
00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:58.559
They heard this loud boom of the gun go off,

307
00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:01.400
which is scary enough not to mention they were only

308
00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:04.680
mere feet away when it took place, but they also

309
00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.640
watched it from just these few feet away as he collapsed.

310
00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.079
And then you know, strangers run up and they're trying

311
00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:14.480
to stop this bleeding and trying to keep their daddy alive,

312
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:18.920
all while still buckled in to his truck, And it

313
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:20.759
paints a picture in my mind that.

314
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:22.319
Is just devastating.

315
00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:27.880
It's just unnatural and something that we wouldn't wish on

316
00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:31.039
our worst enemy for a child to witness. And they

317
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:35.400
never saw him stand back up, They never saw him

318
00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:40.039
even move after he fell over. They never even got

319
00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:42.480
to see an ambulance take him away either with the

320
00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:46.119
hope of maybe he would live, because he died right

321
00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:50.359
there in front of them. The crime scene was taped

322
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.599
off around their motionless and bleeding dad, and their mother

323
00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:57.720
was then taken away for questioning as their little minds

324
00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.359
sat there and just tried to absorb what was happening,

325
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:03.680
and to put yourself in the shoes of a two,

326
00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:06.680
five and seven year old, and that they don't understand

327
00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:09.279
the complexities of everything that's going on. I'm sure that

328
00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:14.799
they were terrified, absolutely terrified. The two very people whose

329
00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:18.319
job it was to protect them and shield their little

330
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:22.240
eyes from things too mature for them. They both of

331
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.480
those people had failed to do just that, one because

332
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.880
he couldn't he was lying dead on the ground, and

333
00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:32.720
the other because she was so scared and upset and

334
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.240
unsure of what to do, made a split second decision

335
00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:41.079
that would now affect everybody within a five foot radius

336
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.079
of that gun going off. So, as you can likely tell,

337
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:48.759
this episode is not going to be a huge who

338
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:49.160
done it?

339
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:50.759
This is going to be a little.

340
00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:54.240
Bit different, but there will be more questions than answers.

341
00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:59.000
Very shortly so, while CSI came in for the photos

342
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:02.359
and to document the scene, the coroner was also called

343
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.960
to come because they have to retrieve the body, and

344
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.200
upon detective's completion of gathering all of their evidence at

345
00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:11.279
the scene, Thomas was then loaded into a van and

346
00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:15.680
brought to the medical examiner's office for autopsy. The girls

347
00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:18.200
were loaded up and they were taken away as well,

348
00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:21.640
to the custody of trusted adults, while Kayla was brought

349
00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:24.920
to the police station where the questioning of what the

350
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:30.240
hell just happened would begin. Now Initially wanting to maintain

351
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.880
her silence, like I already said, Kayla was hesitant to speak,

352
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.640
but eventually she would start to open up and speak

353
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:40.039
about the events of that morning as they unfolded, and

354
00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:43.359
she explained that she and Thomas were separated. They were

355
00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:46.039
well on their way to divorcing, but they had also

356
00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.960
made arrangements that day to meet up for a custody exchange,

357
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:53.319
and it was going to be a fun day, specifically

358
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:56.839
for their youngest daughter, because she was heading to Chuck

359
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:01.960
E Cheese. That's right, y'all. It was her second birthday.

360
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.119
It was her birthday, and her daddy was gonna have

361
00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:09.240
a little party for her in celebration at the Chucky Cheese.

362
00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:13.039
Not only that, but Thomas had also invited his soon

363
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:16.039
to be ex step daughters to join them as well

364
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.279
at this party. Now, this was their half sister's birthday,

365
00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:24.400
and y'all, regardless of the adult divorce drama, they were

366
00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:28.839
still little girls and they wanted to be there. They

367
00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:32.119
wanted to be there. Thomas also loved these little girls,

368
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.440
all three of them, and he was happy to invite

369
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.759
them along. Think about this, He had played and fulfilled

370
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.359
the role of daddy for these two non biological girls

371
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.240
for almost four years, and to act as if he

372
00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:47.200
could just discard them, I would say, would be a

373
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:50.599
complete insult to his character. You know, he took care

374
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:52.400
of these girls, and he took a vow to take

375
00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.200
care of these girls, and he did just that. So

376
00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.359
although the girls were now five and seven, divorce means

377
00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:03.119
nothing small children who just know that they love people

378
00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:06.519
and they're not going to stop loving adults or their

379
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:10.000
half sister just because the divorce happens. Kids aren't wired

380
00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:13.000
that way. It doesn't work like that. They don't lose

381
00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:17.160
love for people because a divorce is in place. And

382
00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:21.079
both Kayla and Thomas, to their credit, recognize this, and

383
00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:22.839
so the plan was to meet up at the Walmart

384
00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.000
parking lot around eleven AM, where Kayla would hand over

385
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:28.519
the children to Thomas for him to take them to

386
00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:31.759
this birthday party. Now, Kayla was reportedly living in a

387
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:35.240
gated community right near the Walmart. I believe it was condos,

388
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:39.039
and so this was a very convenient and neutral site

389
00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:42.839
for this exchange to take place. And Kayla would explain

390
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:46.599
to the investigators that what started out as a completely

391
00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:48.839
normal ish I guess.

392
00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:50.640
You know, for what they were dealing with.

393
00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:55.200
What started out as a normalish exchange, with that typical

394
00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:58.240
tension that you would expect of newly divorcing people, it

395
00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:02.160
would soon escalate in a matter of seconds to something

396
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:07.279
well beyond just frustration with one another. She was very,

397
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:10.920
very clear to start that she in fact shot Thomas,

398
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:15.640
and the reason why was because she was absolutely positively

399
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:20.079
terrified of him, and he was demanding that she talked

400
00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:23.039
to him more in depth after he got the children,

401
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:26.000
and she told him, no, no, I don't want to

402
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:27.759
do this. I'm giving you the kids. I'm not going

403
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.200
to talk to you. I don't want to fight, I

404
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:31.440
don't want any of that. I don't want any interaction

405
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:36.160
with you besides exchanging the children. I just was trying

406
00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:38.880
to leave and telling him no. And when I told

407
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:42.319
him no, and when I rejected him and refused to speak,

408
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.319
that's when Thomas just he snapped and he got extremely

409
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:50.920
angry at her dismissal of him, and that's when he

410
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:55.680
turned very aggressive towards her. He became very irate and

411
00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:59.599
was acting completely I don't want to say out of character,

412
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:01.759
but not not.

413
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:04.079
What she wanted. He was very irate with her.

414
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:10.200
So, in continuing that conversation, the detective was basically trying

415
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:14.440
to get Kayla to pinpoint exactly what scared her and

416
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:18.839
exactly what Thomas did that was so bad that she

417
00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:21.559
would feel like her only option was to shoot him.

418
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:22.200
And this is.

419
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.240
Important because she absolutely can be afraid, you can be

420
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:28.400
afraid of anybody, but you've got to be able to

421
00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.920
articulate to this detective what exactly took place. So I

422
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:35.039
think that's a fair assessment or a question by this detective.

423
00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:39.279
So when he asks this, Kayla at that point was

424
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:45.559
answering in more generalities than specifics about their relationship issues,

425
00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:48.640
So things like, oh, well he's you know, he's always

426
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:52.920
very loud and yelling and mean and aggressive. Well, that's

427
00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:55.799
not a specific in the moment, and he was trying

428
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:59.200
to narrow it down to the moment that it took place.

429
00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.680
So when pressured more in that regard, she eventually said,

430
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.160
and this is a direct quote, he was coming after

431
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:10.799
me and he called me a bitch twice. So the

432
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.079
detective kind of saddleness for a second before asking her,

433
00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:16.920
you shot a man because he called you a bitch.

434
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.880
And I gotta say to sche Bro, like, if I

435
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.319
shot someone every time they called me a bitch, bruh,

436
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:29.160
I'd have a body count like none other. Not because

437
00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:32.839
I'm a bitch, but because I can totally turn one

438
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:36.000
if need be, as can I think most of us.

439
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:39.720
But Kayla then went on to explain in more depth

440
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:43.480
that she had been scared of Thomas because he was

441
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:48.000
continuously doing things to intimidate her. And then she was

442
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.119
very specific that he had even hurt her in the

443
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:55.119
past on multiple occasions. And the shooting happened because when

444
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.559
she was wanting to leave, Thomas was wanting to continue

445
00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:02.559
talking and she declined that, which made him do this

446
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:06.599
thing he did where he became enraged and wanted her

447
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:09.240
to do what he wanted her to do and there

448
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:13.799
was no other option whenever he got mad, basically specifics

449
00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:18.079
breaking it down. After placing the girls in his truck,

450
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.000
he then came back to her vehicle. She said he

451
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:24.160
ripped open her driver's side door, at which point he

452
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:28.960
came inside, jumping on her or at her and screaming.

453
00:26:29.400 --> 00:26:31.440
It was absolutely terrifying.

454
00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:31.799
She said.

455
00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:34.519
It scared the living shit out of her. She was panicked.

456
00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:38.519
She just was afraid that he was literally gonna kill her. Now,

457
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:44.319
remember he's considerably larger than her. He's also training an MMA,

458
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:46.640
which is mixed martial arts. If that's not something that

459
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:51.000
you follow, and these small details adding up do matter

460
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:55.240
whenever there's violence that takes place. So at this point,

461
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:58.240
while calling you a bitch, and ripping open your door

462
00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:01.400
are probably frowned upon as we can all agree, does

463
00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:06.480
that really constitute shooting someone? Well, this is where this

464
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:09.680
totality of circumstances is going to come into play when

465
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:14.000
the detectives are investigating. And I want to go through

466
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:16.440
this with you as my listeners, because people who aren't

467
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:20.240
familiar with law enforcement or have never really actually understood

468
00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.160
how an investigation takes place.

469
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:24.720
These are the things that happen, These are the things

470
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:25.319
that matter.

471
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:30.079
So was it possible that there was more that needed

472
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:32.640
to be looked at to understand why she was so

473
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:37.559
seemingly quick to pull the trigger and kill someone. On

474
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:41.480
top of that, was she quick to actually pull the

475
00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:44.680
trigger or did she have to in that moment to

476
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:50.599
avoid impending violence and serious violence at that So, Kayla,

477
00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:53.920
in further discussion, was able to outline some specifics of

478
00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:58.200
the incidences that she said took place previously, which were

479
00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:00.200
the things that led up to why she would so

480
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:04.440
terrified of Thomas. She told the detective that Thomas was

481
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.839
known to hit her in the past and that this

482
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:11.880
was nothing new. And this is when specifics questions were

483
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:17.920
asked about documentation in these incidences. Things like, Okay, did

484
00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:20.839
you take photos of the abuse and the damage that

485
00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:24.559
was done to your body? And she said no. Did

486
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:26.960
you ever go to the doctor for your injuries that

487
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:32.599
he caused you? Again she said no. She did explain

488
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:36.240
that she shared those incidents or those events with her

489
00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:40.279
friends and some family, but when the detectives asked her

490
00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:43.480
who they were, she was hesitant to give up the names.

491
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:48.680
But here's the thing. Nothing in life is black or white.

492
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.000
I would love it to be that way, but nothing

493
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:53.440
is black or white. There's a whole lot of gray

494
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:57.880
out there in this world. So was she being evasive

495
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:02.039
because she was lying, or was she telling the truth

496
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.920
but not wanting to get her friends or family involved

497
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.880
in this horrid situation. I know we all go back

498
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:09.960
to what would we do? I do that, how would

499
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:13.920
I act? But I always assume that I'm a prudent

500
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:19.519
and a level headed thinker. But experiences will change how

501
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:22.599
we interpret things. So this was going to be the

502
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.839
detective's job to muddle through and to figure out. But

503
00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:30.039
here's the other thing. The detective decided to go and

504
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:34.880
check the report's database for any police reports of the

505
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:38.640
abuse that had taken place over these last four years,

506
00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:42.400
but there was nothing in there of Kayla making a

507
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:48.920
report on Thomas. What was there were two documented reports

508
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:53.680
from Thomas alleging that Kayla had been allegedly violent during

509
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:58.279
prior custody exchanges with the kids. So this is kind

510
00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:01.640
of going to raise some eyebrows. To be specific, one

511
00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:05.240
of these incidentss was at a Kroger and another one

512
00:30:05.319 --> 00:30:08.960
was at a parking lot of a of a tattoo parlor. So,

513
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:13.400
continuing in their questioning, police asked Kayla if they could

514
00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:18.400
see her phone, to which she declined, but y'all stop stop, okay,

515
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:23.039
this isn't like in your face obvious stuff, Because in

516
00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:28.039
Kayla's mind, she felt like the questioning had become pretty contentious,

517
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:30.799
and so when they asked for her phone, she became

518
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.720
pretty defensive at the way that they were questioning her,

519
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:35.880
and she said, look, I don't like the way that

520
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:38.599
I'm being treated in this room, and so no, I'm

521
00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:40.039
not going to give you my phone. I don't like

522
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:42.079
the way that you're talking to me. I don't like

523
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:46.279
the way that you're you're treating me. So for detectives

524
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:49.119
to do a full investigation, they would need a search

525
00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:52.440
warrant for a lot of things. Plus they would need

526
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:55.200
to search out things like surveillance tape to see if

527
00:30:55.240 --> 00:31:00.160
that possibly existed, and they wanted to review everything to

528
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:03.160
try to figure out what went on. But believe it

529
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:09.640
or not, Walmart's cameras did not catch the event. There

530
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:13.279
was video, but it was not at a good angle,

531
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:14.759
and I think it was from too far of a

532
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:17.599
distance if I remember correctly. But Walmart's video was not

533
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:24.319
very good. So looking around the scene, detectives wanted to

534
00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:27.519
see if they could find someone else maybe that would

535
00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:29.759
have video. And they looked out and they noticed that

536
00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:33.200
there was a Sonic food chain next door to Walmart

537
00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:35.799
and they did have a camera. Police could see it.

538
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:37.240
They did have a camera on the side of the

539
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:41.200
building and luckily it was facing the direction where the

540
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:45.720
shooting had taken place. This is awesome, So detectives go

541
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:49.039
over there and they asked to review the tape, and

542
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:52.160
sure enough, there was a video right there at the

543
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:56.200
right angle. Now, detectives watched as the event unfolded. But

544
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.680
I have to tell you there are some obvious issues

545
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:02.319
with this video as well. And I'll tell you I

546
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:07.200
watched it myself, so I can confirm the following things.

547
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:08.720
That detectives would say.

548
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:13.720
Number One, it is from a very far distance, so

549
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:20.799
it is not completely clear. Also, even if the video

550
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:24.799
was clear, like in a moment, it's almost like if

551
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:28.119
the wind blew, or maybe if it was just pixelating

552
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:31.240
or something like that, but it would go from from.

553
00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:34.359
Clear to fuzzy, back to clear to fuzzy.

554
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:37.519
And I can't tell if it's necessarily the wind, maybe

555
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:40.440
shaking the camera or what, but it's not one hundred

556
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:44.200
percent clear the entire time. Another issue is that the

557
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:47.839
angle of the video cuts off the top of the

558
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:52.200
cars as it's unfolding. As the event is unfolding, however,

559
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:57.480
you can tell what is happening in general. So here's

560
00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:01.519
what the video shows. There are two narrow driveways that

561
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:04.720
are running parallel to one another with a grassy median

562
00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:09.279
in between them. Very well manicured, very clean looking area.

563
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:11.359
And if you're from this area, it was on Coliseum

564
00:33:11.400 --> 00:33:15.559
Boulevard to be specific. It was light outside, very nice

565
00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:19.480
day in terms of weather. Picture perfect honestly. And in

566
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:23.000
the upper left portion of the video, this is where

567
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.279
you can see the two of them drive up in

568
00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:26.400
separate vehicles.

569
00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:27.759
Kayla is in a.

570
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:32.720
Gray four door Dodge Durango suv and Thomas is in

571
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:34.920
a white Chevy truck. It looks to me to be

572
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.559
a Silverado and probably has a few inch lift kit

573
00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:42.079
on it. So when they pull up, they're basically facing

574
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.160
each other, and then when they come to park, they're

575
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:48.799
parking in opposite directions. So what I'm trying to tell

576
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:51.960
you is their driver side door to driver side door,

577
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:54.799
so you'll understand what I mean here, And his truck

578
00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:58.519
is a little bit further towards the back of her vehicle,

579
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:00.400
So I hope that kind of gives you a visual

580
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:05.119
there of how the vehicles are parked. Now, understanding the

581
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:08.360
video cuts off right at the at the you know,

582
00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:12.119
towards the bottom of the vehicle windows. You really can

583
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.440
only see their bottom halves of their bodies during most

584
00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:19.440
of the exchange. Now, I want you to ask yourself

585
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:25.360
something real quick. How do people move in stressful situations?

586
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.119
I want you to really think about this for a

587
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.440
second before I go further. I know that you know

588
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:34.199
I'm a When I'm relaxed and I'm in a non

589
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:37.320
stressful situation, I'm not rushing around.

590
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:38.840
I'm usually just doing my thing.

591
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:43.119
But if I were to get excited, whether I got spooped,

592
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:46.280
you know, scared, or if I'm being playful with someone,

593
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:48.239
which I am a playful person, and so I'll jump

594
00:34:48.280 --> 00:34:49.079
at people and stuff.

595
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:50.039
That's just my style.

596
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:52.360
If I were to get excited, whether it was playful

597
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:55.719
or fearful, whatever, for some reason, I would believe that

598
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:59.559
I would become more furtive in my movements or quicker

599
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:03.159
in my a A furtive, by the way, means let's

600
00:35:03.159 --> 00:35:05.639
say this is a totally different hypothetical. But let's say

601
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:08.199
like there's a guy walking down the street at night,

602
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:10.920
and he's got his hoodie up and he's walking, and

603
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:12.960
then a police car happens to pull up in front

604
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:14.320
of him, and then all of a sudden, he turns

605
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:16.440
around the opposite direction and starts walking the other way.

606
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:21.639
That's a furtive movement. It's just an unnatural movement. That's

607
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:24.079
what I would think would happen. I'm calm and collected,

608
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:26.599
kind of bebopping along. But if I'm scared or excited,

609
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:27.840
then all of a sudden, you might see me get

610
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:29.599
a little more jerky.

611
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.679
In in my movements.

612
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:34.800
And I think most reasonable people would agree that that's

613
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:37.360
how we as humans operate. If you disagree, that's fine,

614
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:39.960
let me know on Facebook or message be on Patreon, whatever.

615
00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:41.840
But that's what I think most of us would do.

616
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:46.760
So with that in mind, as the video unfolds, Thomas

617
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:47.480
gets out.

618
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:48.800
He appears to.

619
00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:51.800
Be in shorts and a hoodie. Possibly Again it's from

620
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:54.760
a far distance and it gets grainy, but both of

621
00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:57.599
them are out of the vehicle at one point, and

622
00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:01.239
they're kind of moving between the two vehicles. I don't

623
00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:06.239
personally see any type of movements that look fast or

624
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:10.559
jumping or lunging or furtive. I don't personally see that.

625
00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:13.639
But as a podcaster, I think it's my duty and

626
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:17.199
it's my obligation to say, why don't you watch the video?

627
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.280
Why don't you go see what you see? Because that's

628
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:24.159
what detectives are doing. They're looking at it and assessing

629
00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:27.559
what do they see when this event is going down.

630
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:29.519
And I will post this, by the way, on Patreon

631
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:31.880
for you so you can go look at it. So

632
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.719
both of them are out and moving between the vehicles.

633
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:38.079
Like I said, nothing looks suspicious, and I watched it

634
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:42.159
not only multiple times, but I also zoomed in as

635
00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:44.840
I did so, and the thing I'll post for you

636
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:47.920
on Patreon. Is I've zoomed in so that you can

637
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:50.639
get a really zoomed in look too. But what I

638
00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:54.519
do see is, at some point after the girls are transferred,

639
00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:58.880
I do see Kayla move back towards her car and

640
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:03.000
get into the driver side seat, at which point Thomas

641
00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:08.199
does turn and follow her to that door. Now I

642
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:11.920
cannot tell. I'm not sure if he pulls the latch

643
00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:14.199
and he tries to open the door, or if the

644
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.760
door is still already a jar. I also can't tell

645
00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.400
if he just pulls a latch once or if it's

646
00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:22.960
just an easy tug, or if he's jerking on the door.

647
00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:26.559
I can't tell. I can't see that. But within literal

648
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:31.079
seconds of him touching the door or going towards the door,

649
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:37.280
you see him, You see the door kind of come open,

650
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:43.480
and then he literally, without exaggeration, he literally flies backwards

651
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:47.280
very quickly in the frame, and then he collapses and

652
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:52.119
he's falling. He's the falling backward is faster than any

653
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:57.000
movement that I see during the entire video, minus cars

654
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:57.960
that are driving by.

655
00:37:57.880 --> 00:37:59.199
As this takes place.

656
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:01.199
So what I'm I'm just basically trying to evoke to

657
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:03.639
you is that the motions and movements of everybody seems

658
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:07.039
very normal. And then the fastest thing that I see

659
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:12.000
is him fly back whenever the shot rings out. But

660
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:16.280
because there's no good sound and the video is grainy,

661
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:20.679
what Kayla says was happening could be true. It's not

662
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:23.239
like what she is saying is like, oh, that didn't happen.

663
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:26.679
I mean, watching the video, it definitely looks like what

664
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:29.320
she is saying could be true. But it's like there's

665
00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:33.320
not enough to come to a conclusion one way or

666
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:37.079
another as to whether Thomas is just speaking with her

667
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:40.719
or whether he's jerking on the door or not. I'm

668
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:43.039
telling you, I really did look at this hard for you,

669
00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:45.800
and I just don't have enough to come to a

670
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:48.760
conclusion at this point in the storytelling.

671
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:50.480
I'm gonna tell.

672
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:53.280
You I'd be fifty to fifty if I had decide

673
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:55.920
right now, I would be fifty to fifty on what's

674
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.599
going on now in a court of law, all right,

675
00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:02.599
if if you were to have to say whether she

676
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:05.039
was guilty or not of like murdering him, per se,

677
00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:08.039
you cannot be fifty to fifty.

678
00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:08.679
You have to.

679
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:14.559
Be beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone on this.

680
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:16.559
So we have two things, and I don't mean to

681
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:18.039
be teaching, but I want you to understand why I'm

682
00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:20.840
breaking it down. We have a preponderance of evidence, and

683
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:25.000
then we have beyond a reasonable doubt. So a preponderance

684
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:28.760
of evidence would be more likely than not beyond a

685
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:31.159
reasonable doubt. Means you may not have one hundred percent

686
00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:34.559
certainty of exactly what happened one hundred percent, but you're

687
00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:38.800
beyond that doubt that whatever happened was wrong. Okay, so

688
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:42.280
just keep that in mind. What I found most interesting

689
00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:45.800
were three specific things, three things that I'm going to

690
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:49.239
share with you because one in particular, I have not

691
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:53.960
heard brought up anywhere that I've looked, anywhere that I've read,

692
00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:58.360
and I thought it was important to share it with you.

693
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:02.960
So Number one, the time between him approaching the door

694
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:06.599
of Kayla's to the time that she pulled the trigger.

695
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:12.000
What the question here is what is reasonable to believe

696
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:16.159
would be an appropriate amount of time for that to happen,

697
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:21.840
because multiple things had to have happened before she shoots

698
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.239
the gun. Number one, put yourself in this situation and

699
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:28.039
I'm gonna play. I'm gonna play it objectively here. Let's

700
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:31.079
say that he is attacking her. I'm not saying he is.

701
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:33.360
I'm not saying he isn't right now, But let's say

702
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:37.800
that he is attacking her. Number One, her brain has

703
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:41.920
to have time to assess the threat level. Number two,

704
00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:47.639
her brain then has to react to that threat level.

705
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:51.199
And action is always faster than reaction, So she has

706
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:53.840
to assess the threat level. Her brain has to react

707
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:58.119
to that said threat, which means obtaining the weapon that

708
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:01.480
she had, the gun that she had for protection. So

709
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:04.960
if they were arguing and he wanted to talk more,

710
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:09.360
she could have turned and gone to the car to

711
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:11.639
get away. I will give her that benefit of the

712
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:13.079
doubt on this one. She could have just gone to

713
00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:15.519
the car to get away from him. And then if

714
00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:18.679
he was flipping out you can't tell from the video,

715
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:22.079
and he began to rage like she said. This brings

716
00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:26.840
about my second issue to consider. How did she obtain

717
00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:31.840
the weapon so fast? Why do I bring this up? Well,

718
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:35.679
it's because, in her own words, she told the police

719
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:39.199
that she kept the gun in her driver's side door

720
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:43.880
and it was in a holster. So if you're familiar

721
00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:46.760
with guns, your law enforcement or maybe you're just you're

722
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:48.880
open carry or whatever it is that you do conceal carry.

723
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:51.599
I don't care whatever. All right, you should right now

724
00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:55.679
at this moment, see what the obvious issue is. Okay,

725
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:59.400
if not, that's what I'm here for. How the hell

726
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:05.559
did you jump in the car, grab the gun, remove

727
00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:10.480
it from its holster, and then not only aim, but

728
00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:15.440
fire and hit him in a mirror two to three

729
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:19.480
second time frame. Now, if this is the movie is

730
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:20.880
I know what you're thinking. Oh, well, she just grabbed

731
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:22.000
the gun, she pulled it out, and she shot.

732
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:22.920
Great. Love that.

733
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:26.360
But I'm going to tell you this, and I've had

734
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:30.239
a lot of practice doing this, even in law enforcement work.

735
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.840
Law enforcement officers.

736
00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:38.079
Literally practice holster withdrawals because we want to ensure quickness

737
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:43.159
in doing things under pressure. And that's the key under pressure.

738
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:50.639
When you are under pressure, you lose your your finite reflexes.

739
00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:53.039
When you are under extreme pressure and you feel like

740
00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:55.159
you're about to fight for your life, you know, your

741
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:59.719
eyes widened to take in what you're seeing, your heart's

742
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:02.239
going to are pumping faster, and all your blood is

743
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:05.480
going to actually pull you from your fingers and from

744
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:07.920
your extremities because it wants to focus on survival, and

745
00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:10.239
all that blood is pulling into your heart to send

746
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:12.599
it to your brain and to these vital organs, so

747
00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:16.480
your finite reflexes become very difficult.

748
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:17.400
All right.

749
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:19.960
So police train for this because you don't want to

750
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:21.639
lose that if you're in a fight for your life.

751
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:27.039
So even for someone who is trained, you still practice

752
00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:29.519
that to make it fluid. Well, this is someone who

753
00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:33.239
is not professionally trained, so I would say untrained to

754
00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:36.000
assess the threat. And I doubt she sat at home

755
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:39.719
practicing withdraws from her holster. But even if she did,

756
00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:42.519
even if she did have a holster and she practiced

757
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:45.159
withdraw it from it, this is the other issue I see.

758
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:53.199
Your holster has to be on your person, attached to

759
00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:58.199
give you something to push against and pull on the withdrawal.

760
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:01.400
So if the gun was a holster in her door,

761
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:04.760
that means she had to grab it out of the door, pocket,

762
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:07.719
hold it with one hand, and then pull the gun

763
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:11.559
out and then turn and then aim and fire all

764
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:13.719
of that after assessing the threat. And he's on top

765
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:16.880
of her. Okay, this is just how I'm breaking it down.

766
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:19.079
So to me, it seems like she would have had

767
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:23.079
to have been prepared almost in a way and maybe

768
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:25.880
have already deholstered the weapon for this to go down

769
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:29.320
as fast as it did. And again that's my perception

770
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:32.760
of things at this point in the video. My third

771
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:35.079
issue is this, okay, and this is the one that

772
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:37.280
I haven't heard anyone bring up, and I want to

773
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:40.199
bring it up. My listeners know this. I'm a mother,

774
00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:45.480
and I am a fiercely, fiercely protective mother at that

775
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:49.199
and I make no apologies for it, and I never will.

776
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:54.440
And considering the dynamics of this family, only one child

777
00:44:55.159 --> 00:45:00.519
was biologically Thomas's, thus he only had a right to

778
00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:07.920
that one specific child. With Kayla expressing how afraid of

779
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:10.920
Thomas she was and how he had hurt her in

780
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:13.880
the past so many times, and that she was just

781
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:15.320
so afraid she had to get a gun.

782
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:16.199
She's that scared.

783
00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:21.199
Why on earth would you be willing to not only

784
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:25.679
meet this man, but also hand over the other two

785
00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:28.360
minor children to spend time with him.

786
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:33.119
That is something that is just hung with me for

787
00:45:33.159 --> 00:45:33.920
a long time.

788
00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:37.360
While I was writing this episode, I'm like, I don't

789
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:41.039
think I'd be doing that. He has a propensity for violence.

790
00:45:41.079 --> 00:45:43.320
I'm not handing over to additional children to him, no,

791
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:44.880
let alone. I don't want to give over the one.

792
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.519
Child we share. Do you agree with that? Maybe you don't.

793
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:50.639
That's where I'm at and I just can't get past it.

794
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:53.719
And I know someone will be thinking right now, oh, well,

795
00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:56.639
he never hurt the kids, so maybe that's why to

796
00:45:56.760 --> 00:46:01.519
me irrelevant, irrelevant if you you are scared enough that

797
00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:05.639
you think you need to purchase a gun to defend yourself,

798
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:07.719
which means you think you might have to kill this

799
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:09.760
man potentially now.

800
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:11.480
And she shot in the direction of.

801
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:13.239
Her children, by the way, too, like the children in

802
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:15.880
the truck, and she's between he's between her and the children.

803
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:20.639
Okay, then I just don't can't. I can't get behind that.

804
00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:23.360
You don't want to You wouldn't risk yourself not to

805
00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:26.400
mention your children. If this is the level of abuse,

806
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:28.239
I just can't get behind that thought process.

807
00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:30.800
That's me, you do you, It's America. But this is

808
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:31.679
where things.

809
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:34.599
Get a little bit more gray, because what is going

810
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:36.960
to be brought up at this point is the concept

811
00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:41.079
of battered women or battered woman's syndrome. Okay, this does

812
00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:43.599
come into play in this case. And let me start

813
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:47.320
by saying this, I want hundred percent, one hundred percent

814
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:49.599
agree that battered woman's syndrome is real.

815
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:50.639
I am not.

816
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.119
Disputing that fact at all. There's no doubt in my

817
00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:57.079
mind that when people judge women from their own non

818
00:46:57.199 --> 00:47:02.039
abused standpoint, of course, a batter woman's decision making may

819
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:05.760
look squirrely to you. Perception is everything in this world.

820
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:10.679
Experience is everything in this world. So for the sake

821
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:14.760
of acting as basically a juror in assessing this situation,

822
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:16.920
I want to explain a few things to you about

823
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:19.079
battered women's syndrome that you may want to take intoc

824
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:23.320
count while you're thinking through this one. There are signs

825
00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:26.719
and symptoms that have commonalities in battered woman's syndrome. So

826
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:29.760
to be a battered woman and have that syndrome the

827
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:35.400
psychological effects of experiencing persistent domestic or intimate partner violence.

828
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:39.159
That is the definition per the American Psychological Association. I

829
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:40.719
didn't want to put it into my own words because

830
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:44.199
I want you to have a very valid explanation of it.

831
00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:48.320
And these signs and symptoms, they can vary, but there

832
00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:51.800
are commonalities that are undisputed. Okay, I'm just going to

833
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:54.159
tell you a couple of them. The first one is fear.

834
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:58.280
Healthy relationships do not leave you feeling like you are

835
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:02.199
walking on eggshells. Only abusive ones do. I hope that

836
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:06.599
we can all agree on that. Well, Kayla was expressing

837
00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:09.719
how fearful she was of Thomas, so much so that

838
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:12.599
she had gotten a gun for protection, so that one

839
00:48:12.679 --> 00:48:14.360
we might could check off and say, all right, I

840
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:14.719
got you.

841
00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:18.800
Lack of control. That is the next one.

842
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:23.760
Healthy relationships are in general a fifty to fifty. Okay,

843
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:25.280
it may go a little bit more or less in

844
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:30.199
one direction, but abusive relationships typically have one partner who

845
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:33.639
holds the the only deciding vote in what happens in

846
00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:37.679
that relationship relationship, and I'm not sure I'm seeing that

847
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:42.400
based on what we have discussed thus far. The next

848
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:46.559
one would be isolation. And this one's huge because people

849
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:50.840
who are living in abusive relationships often become isolated, and

850
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:55.039
it can be for different reasons. Either shame of their

851
00:48:55.079 --> 00:48:57.000
situation and they don't want people to see them with

852
00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:00.000
bruises and things like that, or they may pull away

853
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:03.159
away from family and friends because the abuser demands it

854
00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:05.880
or requires that you know or convinces you that your

855
00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:08.599
friends aren't good friends or whatever. Okay, but that isolation

856
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:13.119
comes into play well for me. It seems that they

857
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:17.039
both were kind of doling out the drama, whether with

858
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:19.800
cause or not, to this point, I know, I haven't

859
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:25.079
given you everything yet. And then the psychological shifts of

860
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:29.800
a battered woman, Okay, over time, they're going to show

861
00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:33.360
shifts in their personality. Sometimes in their mental health. You'll

862
00:49:33.400 --> 00:49:36.920
see increased depression, anxiety, guilt, shame, all of these things.

863
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:41.599
And I'm not quite seeing that either in Kayla's behavior.

864
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:45.039
And I will expand on this later on more in depth.

865
00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:47.840
But the last one that I want to point out,

866
00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:50.519
and this one sticks out to me, is that battered

867
00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:56.880
women often miss work or other obligations. And the reason

868
00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:00.679
that is is because they feel a drive to protect

869
00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:06.320
not only themselves, but to protect children in these abusive relationships.

870
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:10.239
Abused people are commonly known to miss work or to

871
00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:13.480
often cancel plans because they are just trying to keep

872
00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:16.960
the peace at home. They want to stay back, they

873
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:20.639
want to protect the children. So that's where I come

874
00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:23.039
to this conclusion of Okay, a court order to exchange

875
00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:25.920
your child, I totally get it, But bringing additional kids

876
00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:29.800
to the abuser really, like, really, you were so scared

877
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:33.880
that you ended up killing him. He's dead, but you

878
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:36.920
would hand over your five and seven year old to him.

879
00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:39.519
This is where I started thinking, all right, something kind

880
00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:42.079
of stinks here. Not necessarily at this point do I

881
00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:45.880
think pure evil or anything at this juncture. But that said,

882
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:50.159
let's discuss the children for a second. When children are

883
00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:54.320
involved in or they witness a traumatic violent event, it's

884
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:58.519
common for their account of things to matter in the

885
00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:02.039
investigation into the police credit that's what the police did.

886
00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:05.000
What these kids saw could.

887
00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:08.360
Be beyond helpful, and that small children aren't necessarily going

888
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:12.199
to understand the full consequences if any of telling what

889
00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:14.920
they saw. They don't know to filter, they don't know

890
00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:16.480
that they shouldn't say certain things.

891
00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:17.079
They're little.

892
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:21.719
So what's typically done is these kids are brought into

893
00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:24.480
what's called a CAAC interview, or they go to the

894
00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:28.679
Child Advocacy Center and interviews of these children are done there. Now,

895
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:31.400
these interviews are not going to be done like adults. Okay,

896
00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:34.559
it's not an interrogation like or anything. It's designed that

897
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:38.159
these kids will remain feeling calm, they're not scared, they're

898
00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:42.159
not pushed into answering these direct questions. The rooms are

899
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:46.119
fun and they're colorful, and there's crayons and couches and

900
00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:50.400
stuffed animals, everything that a police station is not. And

901
00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:54.519
this is on purpose. A trained interviewer will go in

902
00:51:54.559 --> 00:51:56.480
with these kids and this did happen in this case

903
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:01.800
and interview the children. But it's more common versational in approach,

904
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:04.039
and it's after they've met this child for a little

905
00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:06.760
while and they get comfortable with one another. But they

906
00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:12.079
do not lead with their questioning, so they're a little

907
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:16.280
more vague, and the child's answer is all dependent on

908
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:20.440
what the child gives up. So, for example, the kids

909
00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:24.079
saw their dad get shot, but the interviewer is not

910
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:26.440
going to flat out say, hey, what happened when your

911
00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:29.920
mom shot your dad, because that's gonna that's so forceful,

912
00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:31.719
that's so like jarring for the child.

913
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:34.599
It would go more along the lines.

914
00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:36.679
Of, hey, you were supposed to go to a birthday

915
00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:40.360
party yesterday, weren't you. Wow, what happened at the birthday party?

916
00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:43.000
And then obviously the child would explain, oh, we never

917
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:45.280
went to the birthday party, Oh well why not?

918
00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:48.039
And then they'll say, oh my dad got shot, Oh wow,

919
00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:48.760
what happened?

920
00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:52.039
And they let it snowball. But the child really takes

921
00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:57.039
the lead on how they answer. Very conversational, not confrontational. Well,

922
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:01.159
like I said, the oldest child specifically I'm going to

923
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:04.440
talk about, was questioned in a CAC interview and the

924
00:53:04.519 --> 00:53:08.239
answers that she gave were pretty solid insofar as what

925
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:12.920
they saw historically happened between their two parents. Everything in

926
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:17.159
this in this interrogation or this interview was videotaped, by

927
00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:19.480
the way it always is, and this seven year old

928
00:53:19.559 --> 00:53:23.440
daughter at one point during this, uh, this questioning, there

929
00:53:23.480 --> 00:53:26.320
was a loud boom that happened outside of the room.

930
00:53:26.400 --> 00:53:29.159
I don't know what it was, but it was startling.

931
00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:30.159
It was a loud boom.

932
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:35.079
Well, after that noise was made, the child then starts

933
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:39.920
talking to the interviewer, saying, basically the loud noise reminded

934
00:53:39.960 --> 00:53:43.079
her about the shooting that had taken place of her,

935
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:49.000
of her stepdad, and so as far as what she saw,

936
00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:52.599
she tells the interviewer that she saw the door to

937
00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:56.440
Thomas's truck, which is what they they called him, was Thomas.

938
00:53:57.079 --> 00:53:59.039
They were in his truck. She said the door was

939
00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:03.280
open whenever the shooting happened. She said that she did

940
00:54:03.320 --> 00:54:07.760
not recall anything in terms of conversation between her mom

941
00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:11.320
and Thomas. She didn't remember them saying anything, but she

942
00:54:11.480 --> 00:54:14.079
did give an account of what was happening. And this

943
00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:17.559
is a direct quote. She said, Thomas was in front

944
00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:20.880
of mama. He was jumping at her, and then Mama

945
00:54:20.920 --> 00:54:24.400
grabbed a gun and then she holds her hand up

946
00:54:24.440 --> 00:54:26.159
kind of and she goes boom, boom, boom or click

947
00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:28.480
click click, and kind of makes the noise of the gun.

948
00:54:29.840 --> 00:54:32.079
Right after the boom, she said she saw a puff

949
00:54:32.119 --> 00:54:35.519
of smoke and then Thomas fell back against his truck.

950
00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:39.079
He grabbed his chest and then he collapsed to the ground.

951
00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:42.440
That's when her mama called nine one one, and she

952
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:44.719
said her mama kept saying, I can't touch him, I

953
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:48.360
can't touch him. Before she then came over to the

954
00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:51.679
truck and then really was trying to distract them from

955
00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:54.440
seeing him on the ground. Now, again, those are my words,

956
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:57.559
not how the child said it. So the child's account

957
00:54:57.639 --> 00:55:00.719
really seemed to line up perfectly with the video, minus

958
00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:04.079
the blurry spot the viewer can't quite make out at

959
00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:07.599
the exact time of what Thomas does at the driver's

960
00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:10.519
side door of her mama, and the child was then

961
00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:13.880
indirectly asked about any violence that she may have seen

962
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:19.400
between her mama and Thomas. You know. Ever, and the

963
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.679
child very matter of factly was able to recount it.

964
00:55:23.079 --> 00:55:27.039
And she remembered her mama throwing a pan at Thomas

965
00:55:27.079 --> 00:55:29.239
one time, like a frying pan, threw it at him.

966
00:55:29.239 --> 00:55:29.719
One time.

967
00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:35.559
She remembered Thomas jumping at her mom. Now, whether this

968
00:55:35.719 --> 00:55:38.239
is the jumping at the shooting incident or a different time,

969
00:55:38.280 --> 00:55:40.159
I'm not sure. I'm not even pretend I know, but

970
00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:43.519
she did mention Thomas jumping at her mama. She also

971
00:55:43.719 --> 00:55:46.920
remembered one time her mom got hit in the leg,

972
00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:52.239
as well as her mom turning around and hitting Thomas. Now,

973
00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:55.440
this is going to be important, don't forget that, because

974
00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:59.639
this kid is a frickin' just genius. As far as

975
00:56:00.199 --> 00:56:03.880
recounting things that she saw, she's a good witness. But

976
00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:07.079
needless to say, whatever is going on, this child had

977
00:56:07.159 --> 00:56:11.280
experienced domestic violence to some extent prior to and then

978
00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:15.079
up to this shooting. And what she was saying was

979
00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:18.400
that both of them were susceptible to pushing each other.

980
00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:20.159
Around at minimum is what I gather.

981
00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:25.239
So detectives now wanted to check the history between the two,

982
00:56:25.960 --> 00:56:28.960
and more information would come to light that also backed

983
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:34.280
up the child's statements, specifically court records. We already know

984
00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:36.400
that there was a custody hearing that had taken place,

985
00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:40.039
given them each roughly fifty to fifty. But eight days

986
00:56:40.440 --> 00:56:44.199
after the custody hearing, Thomas had requested a new hearing

987
00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:45.400
about custody.

988
00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:47.639
That means just a week past and he was.

989
00:56:47.639 --> 00:56:50.679
Back wanting to go back before the judge. So detectives

990
00:56:50.679 --> 00:56:52.519
are want to know why why would you need another

991
00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:57.000
custody hearing just eight days later? But that's because Thomas

992
00:56:57.039 --> 00:56:59.679
was now claiming to the courts that Kayla had turned

993
00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:02.960
violet during their last child exchange. So I know you

994
00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:05.119
want to know more specifics of what happened, because I

995
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:05.639
did two.

996
00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:06.920
So here's the answer.

997
00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:10.719
I wasn't there, I wasn't in court, and I wasn't

998
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:13.440
there when the exchange happened. But I can tell you

999
00:57:13.480 --> 00:57:17.719
what Thomas's claim was. He said that Kyle slapped him

1000
00:57:18.119 --> 00:57:21.920
in the face during the child exchange. And I want

1001
00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:23.119
to stop here for a second.

1002
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:24.679
And say, look, we all know divorce sucks.

1003
00:57:25.159 --> 00:57:27.159
It makes people sometimes act out of the side of

1004
00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:31.159
their normal character, and it also makes people on both

1005
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:34.719
sides become almost all or nothing on who is right

1006
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:37.280
and who is wrong. If you've been through divorce, you

1007
00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:39.239
know what I'm saying and what I'm trying to get

1008
00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:41.599
out here is I don't for one second think that

1009
00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:44.760
they pulled up and she got out, just walked up

1010
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:48.199
slapped Thomas across the face out of nowhere. I could

1011
00:57:48.199 --> 00:57:50.880
be wrong, but I just don't believe that in my gut.

1012
00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:54.519
Usually the truth is going to lie in a dispute

1013
00:57:55.159 --> 00:57:58.239
somewhere between what both sides claim.

1014
00:57:58.559 --> 00:57:59.400
He's going to put his.

1015
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:01.599
Best version for forward, She's going to put her best

1016
00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:03.679
version forward, and the truth is going to be somewhere

1017
00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:04.320
in between.

1018
00:58:04.760 --> 00:58:06.519
Well, this was the court's job to decipher.

1019
00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:09.800
Now. Thomas explained that at this exchange that had just

1020
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:12.800
taken place, and now eight days had passed, he leaned

1021
00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:15.440
in to give these girls all a hug goodbye and

1022
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:17.679
was going to leave for work. And when he did,

1023
00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:20.599
that's when Kayla turned around and slapped him on the

1024
00:58:20.679 --> 00:58:24.199
left side of the face. Now in rebuttal to that claim,

1025
00:58:24.760 --> 00:58:27.159
Kayla had a bit more to say as far as

1026
00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:31.000
what she says happened. She said that Thomas slammed her

1027
00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:35.480
leg in the car door, and in retaliation, that's when

1028
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:39.320
she slapped him in the face. Now, this sounds personally

1029
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:43.519
to me on par to the average objective person and

1030
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:49.119
how they would think one thing probably sparked another. However,

1031
00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:52.519
this is a true crime podcast, y'all, and I think

1032
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:56.320
we have an obligation to think like a juror. And

1033
00:58:56.679 --> 00:58:59.039
my question here is, what do you think is the

1034
00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:02.760
most probable thing that happened based on the evidence so far?

1035
00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:05.320
Hopefully you thought.

1036
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:08.280
To yourself just now, I'm not actually quite sure what

1037
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:10.599
happened or why it happened. I think I need a

1038
00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:13.599
little bit more information. And if you thought that, I'm

1039
00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:16.679
going to tell you I think that's completely appropriate because

1040
00:59:17.239 --> 00:59:21.159
only claims have been made by both sides at this point.

1041
00:59:21.719 --> 00:59:24.920
So would police be able to shure up this case

1042
00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:32.079
before trial? So many unanswered questions were there that a

1043
00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:37.199
jury would most certainly require answers to in order to convict.

1044
00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:39.800
Because I'm going to tell you this, they do place

1045
00:59:39.880 --> 00:59:43.880
Kayla under arrest and charge her with second degree murder

1046
00:59:44.280 --> 00:59:47.800
of her soon to be ex husband. So she sent

1047
00:59:48.679 --> 00:59:51.800
off to jail, but detectives realize they've got to have

1048
00:59:52.519 --> 00:59:55.519
more if they're going to get her convicted. Do you

1049
00:59:55.679 --> 00:59:58.719
think my question here is that do you think Kayla

1050
00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:00.360
was justified.

1051
01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:02.199
In the shooting of Thomas?

1052
01:00:02.840 --> 01:00:05.599
Do you think at this point in this story that

1053
01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:08.639
the case is solid enough that you, as a juror,

1054
01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:13.199
could convict Kayla for murdering Thomas? Because remember, if you're

1055
01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:16.239
charged with second degree murder in Louisiana, that carries a

1056
01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:20.719
maximum sentence of life in prison. It's a very steep penalty.

1057
01:00:21.079 --> 01:00:23.760
Where are you right now based on the evidence I've

1058
01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:27.239
given you, Well, if you think you know one way

1059
01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:29.760
or the other, you may want to just pump the

1060
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:32.880
brakes real quick for a second, because police are about

1061
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:35.320
to find out some information that's going to turn this

1062
01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:39.159
case completely upside down. Because one thing we know is

1063
01:00:39.199 --> 01:00:41.840
that failure to advise is the same thing as keeping

1064
01:00:41.920 --> 01:00:44.480
a secret. And you know what they say, two people

1065
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:46.840
can always keep a secret as long as one of

1066
01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:47.760
them is dead.