May 12, 2026

Part 3 | Darkness Fell: Interview with Sarah Rice

Part 3 | Darkness Fell: Interview with Sarah Rice
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Season 10

In this episode to wrap up the series “Darkness fell”. KJ sits down with Sarah Rice the Granddaughter of Granza as she recalls memories of her Grandmother, the family impact of this heinous crime and the family fight against Prop 57.

Timestamps
01:58 Connecting with Granza's Family
07:03 Memories of Granza
09:05 The Shock of the News
14:16 The Aftermath of Granza's Death
31:08 The Impact of the Crime
40:04 Navigating the Justice System
1:11:57 The Fight Against Proposition 57
1:27:01 The Hearing Experience

WEBVTT

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Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast. Or I tell

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stories of real crimes with real victims whose cases are

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so shocking that many are left wondering how is this

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even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections,

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and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator,

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dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so

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evil many feel they are unspeakable. Warning Unspeakable as intended

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for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm

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not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey, y'all, kJ,

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You're back with a very extra special episode for you today.

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I know that you've been listening to the episode about

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our wonderful elderly couple that was tragically murdered by someone

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that I don't even want to say his name right now,

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But you've been listening to the episode episodes, and so

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I just really got wrapped up in this one. And

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when I tell you wrapped up, what I mean is

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I looked at the pictures of our victims and something

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just tugged at me about Granza.

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I liked her, I liked her spirit, I liked her essence.

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I liked everything that I was learning about both of

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them as as people in our society and and just

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great contributors to the world. And so after watching a

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video that I saw online, I said, you know what,

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I want to talk.

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I want to talk to Granza's family. I want to.

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I want to.

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I want to connect with them and see what they

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have to say and if I'm missing something or if

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there's more that I should know. And I had the

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absolute privilege and pleasure of getting in contact with Granza's daughter,

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who was so wonderful and kind and said, well, maybe

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you should speak with my daughter. She's been the one

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that's really been the forefront of our family during this

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entire experience. And so she put me in touch with

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her daughter, Sarah, And today I have Sarah with me

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and we're gonna do a little chatting about this case.

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And I think that this is going to be super

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important to people who maybe haven't had much experience in

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the justice system, that it might be eye opening that

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it's not just about when the crime occurs, because there's

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a whole lot that's gonna happen afterwards. But before we start,

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let me introduce y'all to Sarah Rice. And I want

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to say good morning and thank you so much. Good morning,

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how are you doing.

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I'm good. I'm feeling excited about this. I love talking

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about Granza. So let's do this.

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Let's do it.

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And I don't know about you, but the first time

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I spoke with you, I just felt this this connection.

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I just feel like you're a friend and you just

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very easy to talk to and and I think you're

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a great testament to the woman who Grandza was because

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I can see through you.

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You know what kind of light you know that she

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instilled inly got the treat. Yeah, so look, let's start thereat. Yeah,

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so tell me.

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I know I covered her in the episode to you know,

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but you knew her.

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It's your grandma, not mine.

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So can you just give us, give us a little

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taste of Granza and mister Chip and uh, what are

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we missing out on?

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Tell us about about her?

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I mean I could talk about them for days. My

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grandsa was, I mean she was everything. She was, you know,

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just like everybody else's grandma. I guess right, Like I

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just looked up to her so much throughout my life

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and I spent a significant amount of time with her

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when I was a youngster because my mom and dad

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were divorced, and so my mom, who lived in another state,

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would fly from Hawaii to California and we would spend

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that summer with Grandza at her home with my mom

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and my brother and I and we just how do

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I describe her? And like I mean, you said it,

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you know when we were talking about Grandza, where she

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got that name, you know, because she was just fucking cool,

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Like she just was, and she had a way about

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her when she walked in the room, like you really

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felt like she was the person everybody's looking at. She

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just had a way about her. And as a little girl,

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you know, this little eight year old girl just always like,

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oh my god, my Grandsa was so cool, you know,

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she was the fonds to me. Grant. She didn't wear

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a leather jacket, but she wore a white urtin like

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with jeans and a belt and her little, you know,

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high heels that she always had on. But she was

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she was like a confidant for me. Like I grew

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up in a very religious, like evangelical household, whether it

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was my mom or my dad, and Granza was like

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my voice of reason because she she also had some

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Christian aspects to her, but she was also just very

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earthly and believed in all kinds of goodness. Like at

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the end of the day, she was just she just

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wanted to be a good person.

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And what an amazing thing too, because we live in

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a world where not yeah, not everybody has that. And

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I didn't mean to cut you off. I apologize, but

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I just to her credit. You know, there's a lot

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of things that we don't you know, in the world.

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We may not agree with people on, but at the

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end of the day, if you're a good person, good

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versus bad, as long as you're on the side of good,

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you know what I'm saying. And she just had that

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that vibe.

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Man, we had it she you know, and she was

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a human right like we all make our mistakes and

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we all, you know, have regrets. Well I don't know

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my regrets. But at the end of the day, she

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just wanted us to be raised to good humans. And

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she always had like the most profound wise advice to

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give her her grandkids, her children, and I just I

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loved getting it from her. I like loved getting that

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like the grandza energy, the fill Like I just like

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wanted to be around her. When I when I met

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my wife, I said, oh, you wait till you meet grandson.

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And she's like, what do you mean, because she was

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all like, I'm Argentine and we're very affectionate and you know,

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blah blah blah.

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And I was like, wait, wait, you getting grands a hug, right,

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the grands of hugs were.

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Oh my god, I mean, but you got a hug

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from Granza and you she didn't let you go. It

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lasted hours because it was she would embrace you, and

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then you when it gets awkward, and she'd embrace you

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just a little bit more, and then it was the

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she'd hold your hand. Yeah, And so you sat with

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her and you were embraced the entire time that you

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were with her, unless she went up to get a

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cup of coffee or whatever. Yeah, but it would come

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back and it was the hands were being held, you

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were sitting together, she was holding you, she was stroking

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your hair.

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Whatever, and you felt loved and you felt heard and

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seen and just really made you feel. And I know

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that feeling because I lost my own grandmother recently. But

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I can just you walked in the room, and I

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think we can all identify with that that you walk

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into the room of this person who from the minute

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you were born, adored you, loved you, cared for you,

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accepted you, and wanted you to be the best that

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you could be. And she had in your grands I

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had that feistiness, I know because I was looking at

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the pictures, and I know this is not about my grandmother,

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but I just see, you know, when you see that

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light through somebody, and she makes me think about the

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time that multiple times. But one day I was having

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a really hard time in my early twenties and just

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things weren't going right. And I went to my grandmother,

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you know, for that advice, and we're talking and she

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was just sitting there all jeweled up, and she would

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be in her you know, her turtle next too. She

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was just like that, and she's looked at me and

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she said, well, but it's the best advice she ever

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gave me.

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I think she looked at me.

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She said, well, baby, all I can tell you at

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the end of the day is that if they're going

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to continue to give you a bad time, then you

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just tell them to kiss your ass.

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Yes.

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And I said, you know what, if my grandmother told

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me that, then damn it, it must.

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Be good advice. And I feel like she would have

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said that yours grandson was.

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All about that. She would be she would chuckle, she

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would do this little chuckle and she'd be like, oh,

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they're so stupid, and just like.

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It's the Southern bless your heart, ye, bless her heart.

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No, oh, darling, just fuck them.

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Yeah, I mean, if they can't take a joke, then

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I mean I feel you on that same level. So

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I hope that the listeners just through this understand how

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this is just a loss and we're not We're not

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not talking about mister Chip. Mister Chip was in your

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life as well a little bit right when they got.

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Married, and but you years they were together.

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Seventeen years, and so I mean devoted to one another too,

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very very loving and together through it all.

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And you walked him down the aisle, right.

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I did, my brother, and I walked her down the aisle.

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That's so wonderful.

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So when all of this took place, can you tell me,

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can you think back to whenever the news was broken

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to you finding out initially versus when the whole truth

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was exposed to you.

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Can you kind of walk me through what was that like?

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It was all a shock, I mean, clearly a shock, right,

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But my mom had called me on a Monday morning

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and she left me a voicemail. And my mom and

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I are really close, and my mom and I talk

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every Thursday. It's just our thing. We do coffee talk

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every Thursday morning. So for her to call me on

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a Monday was alarming. And my phone was actually on

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my passenger seat of my car, and I was driving

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in a blizzard snowstorm from where I lived in Boulder, Colorado,

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and I was heading towards Denver and I see my

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phone and I'm like, oh, miscall for my mom. That's

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so bizarre. And so I grab it right, and I'm

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not driving very fast, like You're like.

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Never been in a blizzard, never, I've only seen snow

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want so slobery.

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Yeah, I would be scared.

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You definitely want to pay attention. Yeah, And so I

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grabbed my phone and I called my mom imediate. I

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didn't listen to the voice mouse, it was just like,

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called my mom immediately, and she's like, honey, what are

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you doing? And I was like and I could hear

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like a tremble in her voice, and I'm like, I'm

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driving in a snowstorm. And she's like I'm going to

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need you to pull over, and I'm like, I'm not

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in a position to pull over on a hill. It's slippery,

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I'm going really slow. She's like, I'm going to need

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you to pull over, and I'm like, and I'm going

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to need you to tell me what the hell's going on?

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Because I could sense something and immediately, my my gut

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reaction was something happened to my brain. And it took

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me probably a good five minutes of wrestling with her

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to tell me and for me to get off the freeway,

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and eventually I did, and I was like, She's like,

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I need you to drive to Patty's work, my wife

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and be with her because I have to tell you something.

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And I'm like, I'm not doing that. You need to

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tell me right now, Like enough with the bullshit, tell

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me what's going on. And she was like so apparently,

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and she was so calm. Apparently there was a burglary

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gone wrong and there were two dead bodies and Granza

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is one of them. And I mean whenever, no, like

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I don't remember crying, I don't remember. It was complete

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utter shock. I was shaking, physic shaking, and I was like, what,

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what the hell? Like, what happened and she's like, I

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don't know, we don't know anything. Burglary gone wrong, and

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there's two dead bodies. So immediately my my thinking was

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somebody broke in their house and either shot them or

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hit them with a bat. That was, for some reason

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that stuck in my head, right, nothing to the severity

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of how they died. And you know, I get to

237
00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.720
my wife and I see her in her She wasn't

238
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:32.240
working in a restaurant. I see her inside and I

239
00:12:32.360 --> 00:12:34.679
call the restaurant and I'm like, I need you to

240
00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.360
come outside, And it was like as soon as I

241
00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:42.320
saw her, I was like, like Grand's has been murdered.

242
00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:45.679
Like no, I said, Grants, something happened to Grands and

243
00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:49.080
Grands is dead, something on those lines. And I don't

244
00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:52.279
remember much that happened over the next course of a

245
00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:56.480
few hours. I do recall calling my boss and because

246
00:12:56.519 --> 00:13:00.000
I was like, well, I prop got to call her. Yeah,

247
00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.120
And that was me sitting with her. I was on

248
00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:07.039
a purple couch and I was like, you know, and

249
00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:09.559
I never called my boss and I didn't necessarily enjoy

250
00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.360
talking to my boss, and nor was she Like we

251
00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:17.240
didn't have a scheduled call. So she's like me and

252
00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:20.519
I couldn't get the words out, and I was just like, so,

253
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:24.399
something's happened. Something's happened. And all of a sudden, I'm like,

254
00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:27.399
my my grandmother was murdered.

255
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:29.159
She was murked.

256
00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:32.120
Like it like clicked, Oh my god, she was murdered.

257
00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:34.039
I could not stop saying it. I was just like,

258
00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:34.919
she was murdered.

259
00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:35.519
She was murdered.

260
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:38.240
And my wife took the phone from me, and then

261
00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:40.639
there was the rest of the conversation that I wasn't

262
00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.080
a part of because I had lost it at this point.

263
00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:50.399
The realization that she was murdered how I don't know,

264
00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:51.440
but she was murdered.

265
00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.879
Just the fact that she was is just something that

266
00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:56.679
you would never in a million years think you would

267
00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:58.240
put with your name of your grandmother.

268
00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:01.679
Like, right, they don't go together, Yeah.

269
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.320
It doesn't, not in my life.

270
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:05.559
No, no, no, no, no, no, that's other people, not me.

271
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.000
No, And it doesn't it doesn't click. It doesn't click

272
00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:13.559
for a long time, like unders like you because you

273
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:15.679
don't get to see them too, right, Like you're just

274
00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:20.840
like there's all these missing pieces. So it was, you know,

275
00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.159
I flew out that day in the snowstorm. We were

276
00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:25.159
actually one of the last flights to get out of

277
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:27.919
Denver before they shut the airport down for three days.

278
00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:31.480
So it was it was quite wild. I know, my

279
00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:33.799
wife was you know, they kept de icing the plane.

280
00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:35.279
They had to de ice the plane like three or

281
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:39.039
four times in the process, and and she just kept

282
00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:42.759
handing me drinks, which was great because I don't remember.

283
00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:45.480
Yeah, I was just numb.

284
00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:49.639
I just felt numb. I yeah, it was just wild.

285
00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:53.519
It wasn't until I got to Sacramento and my mom

286
00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:55.399
picked me up at the airport and we embraced and

287
00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:58.559
it was just I think we all just sat in silence.

288
00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:02.840
It was so bizarre. It was like a weird energy.

289
00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:05.519
There was like whenever I flew to Sacramento, I was

290
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:07.679
going to see Granza, like I was going to see

291
00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:10.159
my mom, which was pretty new because my mom had

292
00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.399
lived in Hawaii most of my life. But I was

293
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:15.679
she was picking up Grandza wasn't picking me up. And

294
00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.399
it was there was just a weirdness about all of it.

295
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:23.279
And it wouldn't be you know, months until we found out,

296
00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:24.480
you know, how they died.

297
00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:28.000
Oh, it would be it was that long.

298
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:32.600
Well, so we got the death certificate a few days

299
00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:35.320
after they died. It was about I guess seven days,

300
00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:38.519
and my mom was on the phone with a corner

301
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:41.600
and she was like, listen, I'm gonna need you to

302
00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.279
tell me how they died. And the corner's like, I

303
00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:47.000
cannot do that. She's like, you're going to see their

304
00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:50.879
death certificate when it comes and and my mom's like.

305
00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.480
You're gonna tell me what was She was the corner

306
00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:57.320
saying that I don't remember if it was a hero

307
00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:00.960
she corner, but she was the corner's saying she couldn't

308
00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:04.960
tell your mom because of the ongoing investigation, or was

309
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.200
it because she just couldn't vocalize it to.

310
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:10.440
Her she could do. She just was like trying to

311
00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:14.639
be really gentle with my mom. And in that time,

312
00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:17.559
my mom was like, I don't need anybody to be

313
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.039
gentle with me. I need the facts and I need

314
00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.519
you to be straight. And I think that the corner,

315
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:26.440
you know, like, if I had, if I my personal opinion,

316
00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:30.919
if this was my mom, she was just really trying

317
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:37.240
to protect my mom. And she's like, well, okay.

318
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:39.360
Well so before you tell me that the police did

319
00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:43.080
say okay, they were murdered, but they didn't tell you

320
00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:45.360
how at that point, they just said they're murdered.

321
00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:50.519
Nothing because we were interviewed, I got you, you know,

322
00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:53.720
like the investigation was going on for two months after.

323
00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:57.240
And they really thought family might have been involved because

324
00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:59.960
of the brutality and because of how personal it seemed.

325
00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:00.639
Right, But.

326
00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:05.359
Yeah, that I guess what they thought.

327
00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:11.599
I guess from a police perspective because of like how

328
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:14.720
it goes so many other times that it is people

329
00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:16.680
really close to you, that maybe that was just kind

330
00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:18.359
of how you know, you work inside out.

331
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.720
But I know how offensive it must have felt. Yes,

332
00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:23.079
Actually I don't know.

333
00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:25.880
But still to this day, like I really try to

334
00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:29.440
have a lot of grace with the police department and

335
00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:34.599
the FBI, but at the end of the day, like, yeah,

336
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:38.200
they miss something. It's a lot of things that I'm like,

337
00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:43.160
how the hell did you miss that? But so they

338
00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:47.319
were also very traumatized as well. You know, like I

339
00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:49.880
can't even imagine walking into that home.

340
00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:52.359
They had to see me everything.

341
00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:55.759
Was pristine, right, you They literally there's video evidence they're

342
00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.519
walking through and they're recording everything, and then you get

343
00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:01.960
to the bedroom and yes, there was some splatters and

344
00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.720
stuff on the wall, but everything was pretty isolated to

345
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:07.240
the actual bed itself.

346
00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:08.720
Because they never even were able to get up. I mean,

347
00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:10.440
it all took place right there in the bed, and

348
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.319
there is vicarious trauma.

349
00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:16.400
Just you know, imagine seeing that they.

350
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:21.079
So, yeah, so that was kind of the limit there.

351
00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:23.839
So whenever your mom is talking to the corner, that

352
00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:26.759
is why the corner's kind of like trying to be

353
00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:28.880
gentle because it was so bad.

354
00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:33.240
And she said, so, it was the first time we

355
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:37.880
heard that they had been stabbed. Step to death. Cause

356
00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:41.839
of death was multiple stab wounds. And I said, I

357
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:44.039
looked at my mom and I was like, because they

358
00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:50.440
only say multiple if it's more than twelve twelve, And

359
00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:53.079
so she said that multiple means more than twelve, and

360
00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:56.240
so I just assumed thirteen.

361
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.279
Yeah, why would you assume more?

362
00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:01.559
I think it would be more than that.

363
00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:03.240
How could it be?

364
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:03.839
Yeah?

365
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:07.119
How could it be more than Yeah?

366
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:09.039
Would anybody think it would be more than that?

367
00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:11.519
And I don't mean to be morbid right now, but

368
00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:16.720
whenever I was, And please understand, I'm just explaining to

369
00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:19.359
my listeners kind of my method sometimes when I'm writing,

370
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.039
because I'm trying to understand something that is so foreign

371
00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:24.440
to me that I would never do to somebody. I mean,

372
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:26.240
unless I had that's all I had to protect my children,

373
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.720
then damn right, I go wild. Okay, But I picked

374
00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:32.599
up a butter knife, just a butter knife in my house,

375
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:37.279
and I just was sitting there and I started just doing.

376
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.960
This to really grasp what it means.

377
00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:52.839
Sixty seven right, sixty seven times. You can't just saying that,

378
00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:57.480
like doing it changed something like to understand. And I

379
00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.319
don't mean that in any disrespectful way at all, but

380
00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:01.519
that's I get that.

381
00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:05.680
It's you know, a steak, right, how many how many

382
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:07.920
bites can you get when you cut a steak? Right?

383
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.400
I'm like, oh, okay, so I had steak last night.

384
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.440
I was like, well there's one, there's two, Like it's

385
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:16.319
constantly in my head, right, And I have a really

386
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:20.079
hard time with knives, Like, no matter what, I have

387
00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:23.160
a very very hard time with knives. So there are

388
00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.119
times where I use my fork to cut steak because

389
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:27.279
I just can't do it.

390
00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:31.559
You just don't think about that. That how far reaching around?

391
00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:36.759
Yeah, me too, Yeah, And to think about that was

392
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:41.119
sixty seven times for Granza, yeah, and then there's sixty

393
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:43.960
one times for chip. So one hundred and twenty eight.

394
00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:47.960
I think about how many reps you do at the gym, right,

395
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:52.960
like I do arm curls, right, and that's ten or

396
00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:57.319
twelve and I'm tired, you're exhausted, yes, or you know.

397
00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:00.359
I could go on and on for days right about

398
00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.759
all the different things and how the number thirteen affected

399
00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:08.559
me so deeply for months that I would be at

400
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:12.559
the gym and I'd be counting and I couldn't count

401
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:18.599
past thirteen. I could not say the word after thirteen.

402
00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:22.200
And I remember being in therapy and being like, I

403
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:26.279
don't know what it is. I can't anytime I'm counting,

404
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:28.960
and I do it a lot. We all do it,

405
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:31.119
you know, just like you're like, look at all the

406
00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:32.079
little ants and you're.

407
00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:35.839
Like, yeah, yeah, how.

408
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:37.799
Many bugs are in my office right now? You're like

409
00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:42.160
you're constantly counting. And I told my therapist and shot

410
00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:44.640
So I had to do some work around the number

411
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:47.839
thirteen because I didn't know how to get past it,

412
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:50.799
because that was in my head thirteen times each.

413
00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:54.640
You didn't know that I did it. That wasn't even.

414
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.920
Six months, how long? How many times?

415
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.200
So tell me that how did that come about? So

416
00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:03.480
what's going on at that point that it would be

417
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:05.359
revealed to you.

418
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:08.920
So they had made an arrest two months after which

419
00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:12.559
you talk about you in your podcast, and we had

420
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:16.400
to go through a preliminary hearing in this September of

421
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:23.200
twenty thirteen, and it was just like the to set

422
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:27.000
the basis of the what he was being charged with.

423
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:31.240
So again, all we know is that there was a murder,

424
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:35.319
and there was They were stabbed to death thirteen times each.

425
00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:38.119
That's how that's how you go into it.

426
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:40.640
And you don't even know this kid. You've never laid

427
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:41.799
eyes on him, you don't.

428
00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:44.440
I saw him on the news. He had long blonde hair.

429
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:47.119
He kind of looked like, you know, I.

430
00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:51.400
Don't know a member of Hanson the band, Yes is

431
00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:51.920
what said.

432
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.079
That's right, totally didn't listen to them, but yes, long

433
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:01.799
shaggy blonde hair, real soulless face, and scrawnie. He was

434
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.720
really tiny in the in the video that I saw

435
00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:08.039
or the news clip, and so we knew that we

436
00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:11.839
would probably see him. And this was the first time

437
00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:13.839
for a lot of people, right, So even the courts,

438
00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:17.000
the victim's advocate that was really on our side the

439
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:18.839
whole time. But there were a lot of just like

440
00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.799
missed pieces. So they said, okay, beat a court by

441
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:26.319
eight thirty. Court starts at nine sharp. There's no guarantee

442
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:30.400
you'll have seats because it's a small courtroom and there's

443
00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.240
going to be a media and.

444
00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:35.559
Gadiyata which right right then and there. I know that

445
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.759
there's more than I could. We could go on for days,

446
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:42.599
but that right there should be mandatory in my opinion

447
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:45.359
that the family. I mean, I know there's a right

448
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:47.200
the media and all that kind of stuff, but it

449
00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.640
is a court of law and it is affecting people.

450
00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:54.039
Yes, but that's what we were told were They basically said,

451
00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:58.440
there's like fourteen seats. We had like ten of us. Yeah,

452
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:01.759
it's going to be seting room only, you know, especially

453
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:05.279
with media in there and his family, right, yeah, I

454
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:08.440
would assume there's going to be people. So we get

455
00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:11.240
in and this is this will trip you out, Kelly

456
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:15.480
or piss you off. We got in at nine o'clock

457
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:20.799
and there was another hearing prior to ours of another

458
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:26.920
murder case, this elderly couple who had taken an elderly

459
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:31.559
handicapped man that they killed. That we had to sit

460
00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:34.279
through for an hour and a half before the break

461
00:24:35.240 --> 00:24:37.839
and hear about this other murder.

462
00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:40.680
And you're just I'm sure that was exhausting. You're not

463
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:44.200
even in your own Oh no, I.

464
00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:44.920
Was just like.

465
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:50.599
It's almost like you have to laugh to keep from crying. Like, seriously, Wow.

466
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:52.920
I was looking around. I have my wife and my mom.

467
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:54.079
How was this every day?

468
00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:59.200
How is this my great aunt? Like, what the what's happening?

469
00:24:59.519 --> 00:24:59.880
Yeah?

470
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:02.680
And so after the break or at the break, the

471
00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:05.359
victims advocate came to us and she was like, I'm

472
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.839
so sorry. I did not know this was happening. And

473
00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:11.519
she's like, come back at one.

474
00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:14.599
Okay, we'll go one by.

475
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:18.920
One, we'll go have lunch, we'll go do the whole thing. Now,

476
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:23.519
this part is significant because it kind of leads into

477
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:26.119
finding out, and I think it's important for me to

478
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.519
share it. It's also in my book. We'll talk about later.

479
00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.880
But so we come back at twelve thirty after lunch,

480
00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:35.240
we all ate together and talked about how crazy the

481
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.799
morning had been already, and we're in this hallway and

482
00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:41.359
we are in this old courtroom, like built in the

483
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:46.359
eighteen hundreds, really narrow walls, definitely not like handicap accessible,

484
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:53.119
big like wooden pillars, marble floors, gorgeous, right, and we

485
00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:56.839
are in this hallway and three feet across from me

486
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:04.279
is his dad and her little entourage of peers. I

487
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:08.079
don't know if they were friends of his or just

488
00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:10.119
friends of hers or family.

489
00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:13.640
Members, like teenagers, like young fingers, teenagers.

490
00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:17.559
Okay, And here's us on one side, and there's like

491
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:19.839
ten of us, right, and then there's them on the

492
00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:23.640
other side, and there's no talking between, but there's laughing

493
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:28.079
and there's giggling, which is feels very mocking. Right like

494
00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:32.440
there it's the dad doesn't say, he's very stoic, kind

495
00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:35.799
of just looks like an asshole, but he's he's just

496
00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:39.599
standing there just like my son didn't do this. And

497
00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:43.640
then there's the teenagers. It's like and it took me

498
00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:46.720
everything to not say something, but I didn't. I kept

499
00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:47.359
my composure.

500
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:49.480
Well, God bless you, because I think I would have

501
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:50.480
been escorted out.

502
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:53.240
I know me wait, because this is what they did.

503
00:26:53.880 --> 00:27:00.519
The elevator opens and outwalks two bailiffs, okay, and then

504
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:09.119
behind the bailiff bailiffs is DM.

505
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:09.400
And for the record, just some my listeners know she

506
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:11.759
doesn't prefer to say his name because we're not. She

507
00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:14.079
doesn't want to and that's fine, and I that's wonderful.

508
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:17.200
So DM is our murderer, okay, yes, yeah.

509
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:20.640
So DM is in his little tie and shirt and

510
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:24.519
he's shackled. He's got his hand shackled, his feet are shackled,

511
00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:27.720
and he's shuffling behind the two bailiffs and then there's

512
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:30.880
also a bailiff behind him. This is the first time

513
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:34.599
we're seeing him. And where do they choose to walk him?

514
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:37.079
Right and funny, right.

515
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:40.720
In the hallway in front of us. And the whole

516
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:43.480
time he's got his head down and he occasionally looks

517
00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:46.440
up at his sister's dad gives him a little head nod,

518
00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:52.720
and it was like fuming fury, and I could feel it.

519
00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:56.599
I was like lunging, but I realized that my mom

520
00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:00.599
was doing the same thing, and I reached my arm

521
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:03.319
and I pushed my mom back and I was like,

522
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:05.920
I got this. And then in the same instant, my

523
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:12.359
wife put her arm around me. He knows, she knows,

524
00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:18.480
like the audacity that they did this in front of us.

525
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:20.880
Do you know did they have I'm just curious, do

526
00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:22.839
you know if they had back alleys in the in

527
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:24.440
the courthouse at that time.

528
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:27.960
At this time, I don't know what they have at

529
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:29.960
the end of the day that they chose to do

530
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.319
that they never did again. Yeah, it was one time

531
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:35.279
I did see him in a cage and that that

532
00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:36.440
brought me a lot of joy.

533
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.240
Yeah, yeah, well I ain't no doubt. Yeah, I'm so

534
00:28:39.559 --> 00:28:40.000
and I'm not.

535
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:42.359
I'm just sometimes I'm trying to work my brain around

536
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:45.839
through like but these are the small things, which it's

537
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:48.200
not small, but I'm just saying in terms of procedure

538
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:53.160
and process, these small things that if you're not the

539
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:56.759
victim directly affected, that it may not cross her mind

540
00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:00.000
that that's an issue, and it just.

541
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.880
It could have turned into something more, you know.

542
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:07.960
And right, God, you've got your mom's back and your

543
00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:10.680
wife has your back, and hopefully someone's got your wife's

544
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:13.039
back to and I'll just won't be a chain link.

545
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:17.839
Of security on each other because you know. Yeah, So,

546
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:18.240
so we.

547
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:20.480
Get we eventually get into the courtroom and this is

548
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.799
where we find out the details. Right. So they have

549
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:26.400
a deputy up there, and the deputy is the man

550
00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:29.920
who first initially went into the home and he kind

551
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.160
of describes the scene. He doesn't you know, he just

552
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.960
says deceased victims. He doesn't refer to them, he doesn't

553
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.000
say what he saw. He just said too deceased as

554
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:44.680
far as I remember, okay, right again, all my memory.

555
00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:48.119
Not right, and you get that grace though, yes it

556
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:49.440
is what you remember. We're getting.

557
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:54.559
So then they call the coroner up and she's up there,

558
00:29:54.559 --> 00:30:00.839
and she's very gracious, and she speaks very clearly, and

559
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:04.759
it gets to the point where she's, you know, setting

560
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.759
the scene basically, and then you know, she takes the

561
00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:11.759
deceased bodies, she takes them to the morgue, and then

562
00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:14.279
she has to do the autopsy. And then she reads

563
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:21.119
her autopsy report. I'm thinking thirteen, that's all I'm thinking.

564
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:24.079
I'm holding my mom's and holding my wife's hand. And

565
00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:32.079
she proceeds to say, Victim one died by multiple stab wounds.

566
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:38.440
And the judge stopped her and said, I need you

567
00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:43.119
to reread that and state how many. So she then

568
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:48.880
proceeds very calmly and graciously, and she says, Victim one, female,

569
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:53.359
aged seventy six, died by multiple stab wounds. And the

570
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:58.880
judge says how many and she says sixty seven. And

571
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:08.200
it was like I can't even describe the silence in

572
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:13.039
the room like it was. I mean, we're all like,

573
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:17.119
did she just say sixty seven.

574
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:20.160
Or did she say six two seven?

575
00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:21.720
I know my brain would have been going, wait, did

576
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.319
she say six two seven seven or six seven?

577
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:24.759
Yeah?

578
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.359
Like I know, but.

579
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:31.440
She's sixty seven. And I looked at my wife, and

580
00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:35.079
I looked at my mom, and I mean, I mean

581
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:39.119
complete and utter shock, Like I don't know that I

582
00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:44.599
was able to speak. I just had to sit with that.

583
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:47.559
I don't I don't remember much after that, because I

584
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:52.079
do remember them saying victim to mail eighty seven sixty

585
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:57.519
one stad Woods and then doing the math right under

586
00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:02.000
twenty eight twenty seven stood out to me. I mean,

587
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:06.279
that's just what it was. She was stabbed more. But knowing,

588
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:08.240
you know, the severity of it all, like.

589
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:14.559
It's just yeah, I can imagine you would just almost loose,

590
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:16.960
like at that point everything would go whom you know,

591
00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:18.279
and like, I.

592
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.359
Mean, it was. I don't even think that the media

593
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:25.799
that was in the room knew how to address it,

594
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:30.519
like it wasn't. I know that the city in itself

595
00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:32.720
was like, we do not want to talk about this,

596
00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:34.920
We do not want this in the news. We do

597
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.359
not want to share that this teenager was capable of

598
00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:40.839
doing something like this because it was it was totally

599
00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:43.559
on the hush hush. The media really kind of disappeared

600
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:49.039
after that, and because that was that was a lot.

601
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:54.200
This is now a sixteen year old kid and and

602
00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:56.400
he looks scrong. I mean, I just remember me like,

603
00:32:56.440 --> 00:33:00.279
he's so scrawny. But you know, there's the shock fact,

604
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.480
like two o'clock in the morning and you know, you

605
00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:05.599
wake up to somebody trying to kill you, and you know, like,

606
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:09.880
it's just nuts, It's all nuts. It doesn't make any sense.

607
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.400
It is absolutely in line with the fact that we

608
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:16.519
never know what a killer looks like, we never know

609
00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:19.279
what a killer sounds like. We never know, and it

610
00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:22.000
goes along every type of crime, a rapist, day whatever.

611
00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:25.279
There is no guy that jumps out of the bushes

612
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:28.319
dressed in you know, well, I know he was dressed

613
00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:31.039
in black, but like the proverbial dressed in black like

614
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:33.680
in movies and stuff like that. This is a sixteen

615
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:36.640
year old sitting in a high school chair that is

616
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:41.799
capable of this. And while some people get turned off

617
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:44.920
to uh, I guess my podcasting style and that I

618
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:47.519
am that graphic. I don't know what it is that

619
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:50.519
puts a burn inside of me though that No, no, no,

620
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:53.119
no no, we're not just gonna say that she was raped.

621
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.039
We're not or we're just not gonna say that, oh

622
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:56.920
she drowned. No no, no, no no, we're going to back it

623
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.519
up and we're not just gonna say, oh, sh was

624
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:03.640
stabs multiple times. That's a fricolutely not because if you

625
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:08.119
want to understand why people are so angry, I mean,

626
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:11.920
I never even knew Grandza, and I'm so angry to

627
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:13.760
think about what she went through.

628
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:16.320
And mister Chip as well, I'm not. But you know, you're.

629
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:22.039
Yeah that if you can't handle it, if you don't

630
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:24.480
want to hear it, not that anybody wants to, but

631
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.559
if you if you're not willing to hear what happened

632
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.320
to these people, then I don't think that you fully

633
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:33.320
understand the gravity of what outcomes need to come as

634
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:37.320
a result in terms of like punishment or severity or whatever.

635
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:43.320
Because you can't pigeonhole what happened to this couple, your grandparents.

636
00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:46.159
You can't pigeon that hole that into one sentence.

637
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.280
They were murdered. No, no, no, no, no, no, let's

638
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:52.559
get it real, real, down to the nitty gritty.

639
00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:57.199
They were eviscerated. They it would become an anatomy lesson,

640
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:58.800
Like what the fuck do you want to talk about?

641
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:02.199
He did all that, like you said it yesterday in

642
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:08.519
your podcast, where he was finished and he got off

643
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:11.159
the bed, well at least he thought he was finished,

644
00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:16.159
and he took a breath, and then he was like, I'm.

645
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:18.639
Going back for more, right, And those were his own

646
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:25.760
words that he described it that way. That wasn't that

647
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:29.320
wasn't me trying to be salacious. That was not me

648
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.679
trying to Yeah.

649
00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:35.280
It's perspective, it's I didn't think about it that way.

650
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:40.400
So when I heard your words, which were his words,

651
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:44.280
it also just put me back into that. Like, you know,

652
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:47.760
you think about how long one minute is, right, what

653
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:51.000
can happen in one minute? He was there for roughly

654
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:54.000
half an hour, right, and what he was capable of doing.

655
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:57.639
I mean you talked about it. You know, he was

656
00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:03.320
trying to take out the eye and you know, looking

657
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:04.880
at the forehead.

658
00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:08.719
And he even said, and this is small in comparison

659
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:10.880
to everything else, but the fact that he even bragged

660
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:13.639
that he punched mister Chip after he was deceased.

661
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:15.639
What in the world.

662
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:20.639
Yeah, you know, I avoid if I see a dog

663
00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:22.639
hitting the road, I avoid hitting it again. It doesn't

664
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:26.119
matter that it's dead. I mean, you don't that, you know.

665
00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:32.519
And he just seemed so aloof but yet so filled

666
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:35.920
with the excitement, which is a horrific word to use.

667
00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:40.679
But the dopamin words, his words, not mine. This is

668
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:41.880
just unhinged.

669
00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:45.039
It's absolutely unhinged, unwarranted.

670
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:49.880
And that's part of the you know, I struggle, and

671
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:51.360
I just want to tell you this as a as

672
00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:53.639
a friend, I guess, even though we're new friends. But

673
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:56.119
I sometimes struggle with the fact that I don't want

674
00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:58.920
to retraumatize victims when I tell their family stories because

675
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.960
I fully recognized these these are not stories, these are

676
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:05.920
your life. But in the same time, I want people

677
00:37:05.960 --> 00:37:09.920
to know this is what happened to this wonderful human being,

678
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:13.320
both of these wonderful human beings, because that's the reality.

679
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:16.159
You know, you watch a forty eight hours episode or

680
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:18.679
you watch a forensic file and wow, there was an

681
00:37:18.679 --> 00:37:21.480
hour of the you know, meat and potatoes of what happened.

682
00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:27.280
But there are long standing, small yet huge things that

683
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:29.519
encompass these cases, and here we are. How many years

684
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:33.239
has it been since this happened. It's been thirteen years,

685
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:34.719
and here I am still talking to you like it

686
00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:35.559
happened yesterday.

687
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:39.360
Yeah, it wouldn't be like this, so oh correct.

688
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:42.800
Yeah, you're a lot of work and I only work done.

689
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:46.679
Yeah you mean like mental like some therapy and some uh.

690
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:49.440
Talk about this. I have. I have done a lot

691
00:37:49.480 --> 00:37:52.800
of work to be able to I still am very

692
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:57.079
affected by it. I still it. Yesterday after listening to

693
00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:00.719
your podcast, I had to take could I had to

694
00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:03.639
take a moment and it lasted most of the day.

695
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:08.000
I'm so sorry. I want you to know not your no, I.

696
00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:11.559
Don't want you to apologize because you just said it.

697
00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:14.239
It's important for people to understand that it is not

698
00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:18.360
just one word. It was. The way in which they

699
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:22.239
left this world is something that actually does happen. I

700
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:26.119
used to say, really up front, it's the night. It's

701
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:29.679
an actual nightmare that it. Like I remember as a kid.

702
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:32.039
I don't want the Boogeyman to come out from underneath

703
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:34.039
my bed and kill me in the night, or you know,

704
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:35.719
I go to go to the bathroom in the middle

705
00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:37.440
of the night and like, Ooh, there's gonna be somebody

706
00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:40.280
in the house like that shit is fucking real, and

707
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:43.239
it happens, and you don't think it's going to happen

708
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:46.400
to you. I would never think it would have happened

709
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:48.239
to me, and it did.

710
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:52.599
And yeah, like and if it happens to you, it

711
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:55.000
happens to me. Is how I feel like you We

712
00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:56.559
are you know what I'm saying. We're all in this

713
00:38:56.599 --> 00:39:00.519
community together, and these animals are running amongst us, and

714
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:02.559
so when it when it happens to you, I don't care.

715
00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:04.280
That's all the way in California. I feel like it's

716
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:06.039
happening to me and to my grandmother, and I put

717
00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:07.760
myself in your shoes, and that's why I get so

718
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:10.000
fiery about it and why I get to go into

719
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:10.519
the detail.

720
00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:13.239
So I wanted to ask you this.

721
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:16.039
So, prior to this, and I don't mean any like

722
00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:21.320
personal like situations, but prior to this, did you have

723
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:25.800
any involvement in the justice system, like as far as

724
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:29.599
knowing someone who was a victim or anything like this

725
00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:34.360
at all? So you came into this zero zero experience

726
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:38.320
and was it anything like once?

727
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:42.480
Okay, that's about it, And what was the case a lawyer.

728
00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:45.559
I mean, I didn't get selected, So you didn't even

729
00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:49.199
get selected, No, And gosh, if I ever do, I'm

730
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:50.079
kind of excited.

731
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:50.719
Girl.

732
00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:53.199
I was just in a jury selection pool for a

733
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:56.559
massive trial and I never got to get up there

734
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:58.719
because they dismissed our whole panel because someone said something

735
00:39:58.719 --> 00:39:59.280
they shouldn't have.

736
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:02.119
But I was so ready, girls, I was going to

737
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:02.840
weigh that evident.

738
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:09.360
But yeah, so you you had no experience. So my

739
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:13.679
question is, did it in any way come across like

740
00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:16.400
were you dumbfounded by how different the experience was than

741
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:17.400
what you thought it would be?

742
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:17.639
Is?

743
00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:21.239
Oh, yeah, I was thinking, like in my head, I've

744
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:25.239
watched s v U right, Special Victims Unit, and I've

745
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:28.239
watched Boston Legal back in the day, was like one

746
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:35.519
of my favorite shows. So I was anticipating like quick, yeah,

747
00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:38.599
like it's like like a slam of the gavel and

748
00:40:38.679 --> 00:40:42.079
these big moments. It was so long and tedious and

749
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:46.880
all these you know, like I grew up in student leadership, right,

750
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:48.840
so we had the gavel and we had like bring

751
00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:51.559
the meeting to order and you're out of line and

752
00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:53.480
blah blah blah, and you know, like there was always

753
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:55.159
like the I appeal.

754
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:00.719
But were teenagers, right, right, So you don't you don't

755
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:04.760
realize that that you're trying to quickly close this book

756
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:08.079
and there is no quick to anything in a court

757
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:10.679
of law, and specifically of something of this magnitude.

758
00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:14.119
Yeah, and you know, still finding things out to this day,

759
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:18.320
like thirteen years later. Like you have to understand too,

760
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:22.320
that being in court doesn't mean you learn everything. You

761
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:25.480
learn what they need to talk about in order to

762
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:29.719
prove guilty or innocent, right, So you don't you don't

763
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:30.920
get all the details.

764
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:34.239
And I'm sure you were having to bite your tongue

765
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:36.320
at some points too when they would be presenting stuff

766
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.920
and you're like, you know more about your grandza than

767
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:41.199
they do. You know, they're doing their best to prosecute

768
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:43.960
or or to defend, and then you're thinking to yourself,

769
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.960
wait a minute, there's more to this or they should know,

770
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:48.960
you know, I don't feel like they're they're fully grasping

771
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:49.280
who she.

772
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:51.679
You know, you have to talk a lot about grands

773
00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:54.480
and ship, you know, like you talked about their housekeeper.

774
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:57.719
She was there. But other than that, they didn't subpoena

775
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:01.519
any family members to get up there, and they did

776
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:06.719
that intentionally, like it was thought out to be. You know,

777
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:09.719
there were subpoenas for his family and people that had

778
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:12.079
to get on the stands. But if any of our

779
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:14.159
family was subpoena, then we wouldn't be able to be

780
00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:17.880
in the courtroom. And really none of our family had

781
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:20.159
anything to do with it. Yeah, you talk about how

782
00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:22.119
wonderful they were, but at the end of the day, that's.

783
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:24.679
Not going to do anything right because it doesn't matter

784
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:26.760
if they were wonderful or even if they weren't. I mean,

785
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:28.880
you don't murder people like that. I mean, that's just

786
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:30.239
I mean, yeah, we're not.

787
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.440
There for them. Unfortunately, we're there for him.

788
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:33.719
Right, yeah, the Lord to him.

789
00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:38.000
Yeah, but there there were definitely times where you were

790
00:42:38.199 --> 00:42:43.599
you know that when he described killing grandson Chip in

791
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:47.920
his confession and they played it in court, my mom

792
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:50.199
and I chose to sit separately in the courtroom.

793
00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:52.320
We were there for a good five and a half weeks.

794
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:54.840
She sat in the front row on one side, and

795
00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:59.400
I sat in the middle with my wife and this

796
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:03.679
woman Mary, who was Chip's stepdaughter, and we just kind

797
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:09.760
of kept our distance intentionally for I think I don't

798
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:11.239
even remember why we did it.

799
00:43:11.320 --> 00:43:14.719
Intentionally though, well for your own reasons. Yeah, just yeah,

800
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:15.639
that's okay.

801
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:19.960
There was a point where they start to play the confession, right,

802
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:21.800
and it's five hours, right, so we have to like

803
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:24.119
give through like the whole first three hours of him

804
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:30.400
just like bullshitting with the the FBI agent. And then

805
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:33.199
it becomes the part where he just starts to describe.

806
00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:36.760
And there was something beautiful that happened in the courtroom

807
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:42.920
and my mom rose. She stood up, and she held

808
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:46.559
her head up high, and her hands were clenched on

809
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:50.639
the side of her and she just held them and

810
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:55.559
she looked up and listened, and I knew what she

811
00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:59.199
was doing. And everybody in the courtroom was like, what

812
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:01.360
the hells have a name? Would she have a gun?

813
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:06.800
Like she was she The bailiffs were all on alert.

814
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:11.440
And she did it to honor Grandza because she couldn't

815
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:15.239
be with her mom when she died. This was the

816
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:18.480
only way that she could be with her mom and

817
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:22.719
show her honor and respect and be a part of

818
00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:28.320
her crossing over. And it was one of the most

819
00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:31.559
powerful things I've ever witnessed in my life because she

820
00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:34.800
held that and that you know, everybody was I mean,

821
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:37.800
the jury was watching the and nobody knew who we

822
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:40.800
were because we weren't allowed to interact with people, right

823
00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:43.239
and very clear, like we don't talk to the jury,

824
00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:45.800
we don't talk to a media, Like there's we are,

825
00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:48.599
They don't. They have no idea that we're family. I

826
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:50.280
would you know, they probably put.

827
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:54.719
Yeah together, right, because sometimes when you go to a courtroom,

828
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.320
I don't people think it's like a wedding, you know,

829
00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:01.519
visa groom and the That's not the case. But I'm

830
00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:03.320
sure they figured out you weren't going to go sit

831
00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:06.000
behind him necessity, right, I would assume you sat on

832
00:45:06.039 --> 00:45:06.639
the other side.

833
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.119
So, yes, I didn't be next to him at all.

834
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:11.039
And he was right in front of my mom.

835
00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:13.800
Yeah, so she's like over it.

836
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:16.840
And she had a bodyguard too that she had hired

837
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:19.519
for the trial because she just needed somebody that could

838
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:21.679
ground her and he.

839
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:26.599
Your mom, Yeah, your mom hired a bodyguard for herself.

840
00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:32.599
Yes, she needed somebody that was not family, that was

841
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:35.440
not related to anything that happened.

842
00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:36.920
A neutral party to yeah.

843
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:41.400
Just and he was a five time black belt. He

844
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:47.840
was like the six foot five giant of am and

845
00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:51.800
but he was had a very calming presence and he

846
00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:53.639
just kind of like held the space for her.

847
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:58.119
That never occurred to me that that would be something

848
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:03.679
to even do. But I find it extremely interesting because

849
00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:05.639
she recognized.

850
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:07.719
She needed to feel safe.

851
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:11.320
Yeah, and you're and you're also to her credit, just

852
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:13.400
like you said, sitting three feet away from that guy's

853
00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:17.119
family too. And I'm not I'm not saying they would

854
00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:20.679
have done anything. I'm just saying you need that safe space,

855
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:22.920
that comfort to know you've got someone who's got your back.

856
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:26.639
And and I would need someone probably to I know myself.

857
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:28.760
I'd want someone to stop me from doing something stupid.

858
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:29.840
I know myself.

859
00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:33.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So power to your mom. Hey, you

860
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:35.079
tell your mama. I said, power to you mama on

861
00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:40.159
that mood. But that's that's very, very very interesting, And

862
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:43.360
it takes a very strong person you included you, your wife,

863
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:47.400
your family to take to take all you fell on,

864
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:49.719
all the swords because Granzo is already in heaven and

865
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:54.000
gone and you're having to hear it, see it, smell it,

866
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:56.480
taste it, relive it over and over and over again.

867
00:46:56.519 --> 00:46:59.039
And that's a test cement to your strength too. I

868
00:46:59.079 --> 00:47:02.440
hope that you know that, and you're doing so much

869
00:47:03.079 --> 00:47:03.480
grand and.

870
00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:06.639
Grandson instilled this in me, like she prepared me for this.

871
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:07.480
Yah.

872
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:09.440
And you know, in the beginning, I didn't know what

873
00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:13.800
was happening, but it took me through therapy and some

874
00:47:14.199 --> 00:47:16.920
you know, just some other things. You know. I had

875
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:21.400
a kid a month a year after Grandza's death, a

876
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:25.920
year and a half, I guess, and she she brought

877
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:28.800
so much light and energy in a positive way. And

878
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:32.480
I named her after my grandsa. So it's I have

879
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:36.800
that that's like a fuel of like you know, Granza

880
00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:39.639
lives on because she, my little tiny human.

881
00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:41.880
Is so court in and of itself. Was this just

882
00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:45.679
whole event and experience that was not something you ever

883
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:48.360
anticipated like it. You know that it would be in

884
00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:50.559
the movies they wrap it up in thirty minutes, you know,

885
00:47:50.599 --> 00:47:52.679
But you've got real life here and that's nowhere near.

886
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:54.760
So but tell me about this. I kind of got

887
00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:56.639
a chuckle about this, and I touched on it in

888
00:47:56.679 --> 00:47:58.320
the episode, but I want you to talk about it

889
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:02.280
with the listeners. But you got letter from jail, from

890
00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:06.480
two criminals, from two inmates that wrote you a letter.

891
00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:07.639
Talk to me about that.

892
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:13.719
So, yeah, we had to go through a later trial

893
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:17.079
like a retrial fitness hearing a couple of years after,

894
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:19.199
and well, I guess we'll talk about that.

895
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:20.920
In a minute. Yeah we will. But that's okay. We'n

896
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:22.480
go all over the place. Our listeners are used to me.

897
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:28.320
That's fine. So there they had to transport him from

898
00:48:28.840 --> 00:48:31.440
his prison in San Diego, California, to back up to

899
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:37.280
Davis for this hearing, and he was in the hallways

900
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:41.119
of the jail, right that's up there, and there were

901
00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:46.280
these two gentlemen who Latino. I don't know if they

902
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:48.039
were gang or anything like that. I just know that

903
00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:54.000
they were Latino, and they saw him in the hallways

904
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:59.239
and decided in that moment to show honor and to

905
00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:03.760
show respect for their elders because they knew him, and

906
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:06.039
they knew of him, they knew the story, they knew

907
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:10.239
what he had done. And in their culture, uh, they

908
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:15.440
believe in honoring elders. There's so much respect. And as

909
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:18.239
a code of honor to my grands and to Chip,

910
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:20.239
they took matters into their own hands.

911
00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:24.199
So he got a little tuna, we call it. He

912
00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:25.079
got a little tuna.

913
00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:29.079
I mean, they they definitely did some work on him,

914
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:34.159
and and I mean that with uh, you know, all

915
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:36.599
due respect, like he's in jail, and he probably had

916
00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:39.840
some handcuffs on. I don't know, maybe maybe they didn't,

917
00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:43.400
maybe it was intentional. I mean, but at the end

918
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:45.039
of the day. The next day we had to see

919
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:48.320
him in court and he was definitely a little banged up. Yeah,

920
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:51.519
bruised and uh a black eye.

921
00:49:51.719 --> 00:49:54.199
Oh well, what we don't like we don't like violence. Now,

922
00:49:54.599 --> 00:49:56.480
we don't like we don't we don't like it now?

923
00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:59.840
Like what what you don't like that? Oh?

924
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:02.920
And so it was a few months later, after everything

925
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:04.599
had been said and done, we had heard from the

926
00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:06.679
DA that he got a little banged up in the jail.

927
00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:13.199
Well there's a fo you know, yeah, I mean, it happens,

928
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:16.199
all right. Well, so you know I worked in prison.

929
00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:18.239
Just you know that I worked at Angola, right, all

930
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:20.679
male maximum security penitentiary. And the thing is this, there's

931
00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:24.760
there's honor amongst criminals in a in a way in

932
00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:28.239
their code, okay, And so I'm not saying everything's great,

933
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:30.760
but there is a code. And you don't touch children,

934
00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:34.320
you don't hurt women, and you don't mess with the

935
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:35.440
disabled or the elderly.

936
00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:39.639
I mean, that's just the code. And so if you're

937
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:39.920
going to.

938
00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:41.119
Get out of prison too.

939
00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:45.840
Right, Oh yeah, absolutely, but you're right, touche toh. But

940
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:48.280
to that, but to that point that even people who

941
00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:51.639
have murdered people like over drug her or over some

942
00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:54.679
other stupid ship, they still recognize you don't do that,

943
00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:57.400
Like there's a there's a line too, because because they didn't,

944
00:50:57.440 --> 00:51:00.360
they didn't have any culpability in all of this, and

945
00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:01.880
so hey, if you got to tune up, you got

946
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:02.360
to tune up.

947
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.920
But then they wrote you a letter, right.

948
00:51:04.840 --> 00:51:07.639
They did. So we didn't think anything of it after

949
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:09.440
the fact, Like it just kind of came and went,

950
00:51:09.639 --> 00:51:13.480
and my mom received a letter in the mail addressed

951
00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:17.760
to her and to myself, and it went into this

952
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:23.239
this whole thing about we see you and we want

953
00:51:23.239 --> 00:51:26.159
to honor. We went and did what we did because

954
00:51:26.199 --> 00:51:31.920
we honor our elders, and we just imagined that it

955
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:35.519
was our grandparents and what we would have done had

956
00:51:35.679 --> 00:51:40.639
it been our grandparents. So it was just simple and genuine,

957
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:48.840
and I just remember feeling so wonderful because we hadn't

958
00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:54.360
received any letters, not even from like the murders family,

959
00:51:54.480 --> 00:52:01.719
and an apology, nothing like nothing years later for something

960
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:06.440
as small as a little ass whooping in prison, in

961
00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:07.679
mental and mental lot.

962
00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:10.039
But even without that ass whooping, the fact that two

963
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:14.480
people that were not even family or family and honestly,

964
00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:16.639
we're on the wrong side of of you know, I

965
00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:19.920
guess the law still had the Hey, let's talk about humanity,

966
00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:25.920
had the humanity to tap into it and recognize that

967
00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:29.519
Granza and mister Chip, you know that that's that's crossing

968
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:29.880
the line.

969
00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:31.519
I mean, so that's very interesting.

970
00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:33.480
And I don't want to sit here and be like,

971
00:52:33.559 --> 00:52:35.599
you know, O, violence is great all kind stuff, because

972
00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:37.639
it's not. But sometimes, damn it, it feels good to know

973
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:39.000
that someone got what they deserve.

974
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:40.920
Yeah, okay, just.

975
00:52:41.119 --> 00:52:44.559
The idea that we see you, Yeah, like you couldn't

976
00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:47.400
you know, Like, I'm not going to promote violence. I'm

977
00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:49.559
not going to teach my kids to knock somebody out

978
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:53.559
and them, but like you definitely have to put on

979
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:56.000
your guard, right, Like I was standing in that hallway

980
00:52:56.079 --> 00:53:00.599
ready to pounce on that little tiny twerp. But you know,

981
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:03.320
at the end of the day, like it just felt

982
00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:04.800
good that we were seeing.

983
00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:09.800
So then okay, so he gets convicted and he goes

984
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:12.199
to prison, right, and then we move into and I

985
00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:15.599
covered the whole like the law change and the proposition

986
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:19.760
and all of that, but you were never It was

987
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:21.840
very clear because I looked at the panel as far

988
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:23.719
as what I saw that the panel of people who

989
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:26.159
went up to make this law, make this proposition and

990
00:53:26.199 --> 00:53:30.119
make this change, it told you who all was on like, uh,

991
00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:32.119
you know, the committee or whatever. And I didn't see

992
00:53:32.119 --> 00:53:35.639
any victims, advocates or anything on there.

993
00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:40.760
And I'm not I'm not attacking these Yeah, I don't

994
00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:41.039
want to.

995
00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:44.440
I don't want to just totally attack because I think

996
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:47.280
we both agreed in previous conversations that they had good

997
00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:51.880
intentions maybe with what they were trying to accomplish, but

998
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.000
didn't think it through all the way, like the full

999
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:57.039
because it was supposed to be for non violent offenders,

1000
00:53:57.079 --> 00:54:01.119
correct non violent offenders with a drug chargers or something

1001
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:06.840
and try to whatever. But then when you start talking juveniles,

1002
00:54:07.719 --> 00:54:12.960
it kind of circumvented the whole you know thing there.

1003
00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:16.000
So when you first heard about it, how'd you find

1004
00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:16.599
out number one?

1005
00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:19.159
And number two? What did you try to do to

1006
00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:20.159
combat that?

1007
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:25.400
So when we found out about Prop. Fifty seven, and

1008
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:31.360
that was in February of twenty eighteen, I was this

1009
00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:37.400
is where my law degree comes in a law degreed.

1010
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:39.000
I didn't ever sign up to.

1011
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:41.679
Get hey, but they have those at the School of

1012
00:54:41.719 --> 00:54:43.719
Hard Knocks. I hear that you can get a law

1013
00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:45.360
degree to the School of Hard Knocks.

1014
00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:47.159
Yeah.

1015
00:54:47.239 --> 00:54:50.199
I never knew I needed to know law as much

1016
00:54:50.239 --> 00:54:54.119
as I did once this all happened. And I'm not

1017
00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:57.239
professing that I'm any. I am not a lawyer, yeah,

1018
00:54:57.280 --> 00:54:59.800
and I don't have I don't have an expertise in it.

1019
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:03.039
Nor should you have to be, though to understand our laws.

1020
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:05.599
Therefore, the people there should be a book that's like

1021
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:09.880
law for dummies, Yeah, you know, like just to understand

1022
00:55:09.880 --> 00:55:10.400
the basics.

1023
00:55:10.400 --> 00:55:14.079
It could be just like courtroom stuff. Or there's no

1024
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:17.239
how to do this. You just have to figure it out.

1025
00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:18.039
There's no manual.

1026
00:55:18.119 --> 00:55:23.119
And I was on fire when I heard this. I

1027
00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:26.599
was like, what the actual and I'm like, I need

1028
00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:29.960
to know. I need to understand what this proposition is. Okay,

1029
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:32.760
So so I do my research and I'm like, okay,

1030
00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:35.559
so it doesn't it seems pretty harmless. We just have

1031
00:55:35.639 --> 00:55:40.519
to basically do this fitness hearing and it's a ninety

1032
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:44.280
nine point nine percent chance that it'll everything will just

1033
00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:49.920
work out and be fine. Ninety nine point nine seems perfect.

1034
00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:53.920
It's not, but if it feels like it, it feels

1035
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:56.880
like And that's how we're going into it because our

1036
00:55:56.960 --> 00:56:00.440
DA is feeling really confident, like you know, we did

1037
00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:05.679
we checked all the boxes, and my understanding was it

1038
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:10.199
was now, you know, the juvenile judge needed to determine

1039
00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:11.920
if he should have been tried as an adult and

1040
00:56:11.960 --> 00:56:14.519
if he's not, if he shouldn't have been tried as

1041
00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:16.199
an adult, then then we would have to do a

1042
00:56:16.239 --> 00:56:20.840
retrial and he would be a juvenile conviction, which he

1043
00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:23.119
could be a free man in a matter of four years.

1044
00:56:23.559 --> 00:56:27.280
So you know, I'm wavering on the side of like, no,

1045
00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:32.760
we should be good like we should. He should be

1046
00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:37.519
in prison. What he did right, It was doing what

1047
00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:40.800
he did. There's no way in hell anybody's letting this

1048
00:56:40.840 --> 00:56:43.159
man out. But law is law, right, so we have

1049
00:56:43.280 --> 00:56:48.159
to like check all the boxes. So we're going into

1050
00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:53.199
the summer of twenty eighteen and the TEDx talk comes out.

1051
00:56:53.079 --> 00:56:56.079
And y'all found out about that Ted talk from how

1052
00:56:56.239 --> 00:56:57.039
from the DA.

1053
00:56:57.400 --> 00:56:59.480
The DA called us and they were like, hey, there's

1054
00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:04.159
a video, and unfortunately we hadn't really addressed like that.

1055
00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:08.440
Who should find out first in the family. I should

1056
00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:11.320
always find out first in the family. My mom should

1057
00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:14.880
never be the first person anybody calls, because anytime my

1058
00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:20.480
mom is called, it is very traumatic and she can't

1059
00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:24.440
wrap her head around it or hearing anything, and she

1060
00:57:24.599 --> 00:57:29.320
panics and she goes into her meltdown in big time.

1061
00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:33.320
And I also have the PTSD, but I am a

1062
00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:38.239
little more level headed around it because it was my grandmother.

1063
00:57:38.440 --> 00:57:41.239
This is her mom. This is like, I have to

1064
00:57:41.320 --> 00:57:43.920
protect my mom the best that I can. And so

1065
00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:51.079
they called my mom first and we established right after. Yeah,

1066
00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:52.400
it always goes to me first.

1067
00:57:52.599 --> 00:57:53.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1068
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:55.840
To their credit, I would like to say, to their credit, though,

1069
00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:57.119
I would like to say it sounds like they were

1070
00:57:57.199 --> 00:57:59.719
very involved in updating you and letting you very in.

1071
00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:04.880
My phone was constantly ringing. When Amanda called, who was

1072
00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:08.239
our DA? I knew that was important and I needed

1073
00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:11.000
to pick up a Flora Valdez called it. I don't

1074
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:12.519
know if you need to take their last names out,

1075
00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:17.559
but they would. When she called, I knew something was prevalent.

1076
00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:19.159
I needed to pick up an answer.

1077
00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:21.960
So a note to DA's out there that it really

1078
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:24.760
meant a lot too that you knew, like, please, thank

1079
00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:28.039
you for not, you know, for being abreast of keeping

1080
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:31.199
us up to date on everything, and so you don't.

1081
00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:33.840
Need to do that. I think that they knew they

1082
00:58:33.880 --> 00:58:34.840
needed to do it with us.

1083
00:58:34.920 --> 00:58:40.199
Yeah, I mean, it's good public service too to prepare you.

1084
00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:44.039
And so they called you and said, there's this video out, yes,

1085
00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:45.719
just be prepared.

1086
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:50.079
Or you know. Prop fifty seven is allowing a juvenile

1087
00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:56.719
offender to have a rehabilitation opportunity, and he was selected

1088
00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:58.760
to be a part of it, and there's a video,

1089
00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:03.079
and I there's no way in hell I'm watching that video.

1090
00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:05.719
Why would I watch a video that would honor him?

1091
00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:10.079
And my mom just didn't. She just was like, what video?

1092
00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:13.559
And she googled it and she watched it in its entirety.

1093
00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:18.079
And I still to this day have not watched it.

1094
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:21.679
I refuse to. I can't even read I can't even

1095
00:59:21.719 --> 00:59:23.679
read it. I have seen snippets I have, you know,

1096
00:59:23.840 --> 00:59:26.400
forty eight hours. We did it at Crime Con. They

1097
00:59:26.440 --> 00:59:29.119
had parts of that that they played on the stage,

1098
00:59:29.159 --> 00:59:32.239
and it's just I don't want to hear his voice.

1099
00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:34.159
I don't want to. I don't want to honor any

1100
00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:35.199
of his words.

1101
00:59:35.039 --> 00:59:36.599
And to put him on a stage. I don't I

1102
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:38.119
don't want to get off task here, but to put

1103
00:59:38.199 --> 00:59:40.480
him on a stage seems so.

1104
00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:48.199
Like tone deaf in regards to this Marriotte Formoh because

1105
00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:52.280
in okay, in theory, I can understand that we do

1106
00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:56.840
need to. We don't need to, but we we could

1107
00:59:57.280 --> 00:59:59.119
take the opportunity to see that there is good in

1108
00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:03.199
everybody and some way, shape or form however where And

1109
01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:04.840
I went and I looked at her website. I went

1110
01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:07.039
and read through everything, and I've got to tell you

1111
01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:11.000
it was just so like read the room, ma'am. Read

1112
01:00:11.079 --> 01:00:13.440
the room, because while you're over there throwing glitter and

1113
01:00:13.480 --> 01:00:16.639
finding brilliance in people, time out for just a second.

1114
01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:22.320
Because if you don't acknowledge what someone has done and

1115
01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:25.920
then you want to quote unquote tap into their brilliance, uh,

1116
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:30.159
well then I find that to be the most unbrilliant.

1117
01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:31.840
I don't know what the word would be, but I

1118
01:00:31.840 --> 01:00:35.639
don't understand because they never reached out to you. She

1119
01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:39.239
never asked, and I know maybe don't want to ask permission,

1120
01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:42.639
but she never said, is this something that you would

1121
01:00:42.639 --> 01:00:45.280
like to maybe have a rebuttal ted talk to or

1122
01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:46.760
both sides or.

1123
01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:51.400
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, sure, sure I do.

1124
01:00:51.920 --> 01:00:56.000
Because I think and I want to say this. I

1125
01:00:56.000 --> 01:00:58.519
don't know if you've ever watched the Ted talk that

1126
01:00:58.599 --> 01:01:03.199
the Columbine shooters other did Sue Cleebold. I was very

1127
01:01:03.199 --> 01:01:07.280
interested in hers because she wrote a book.

1128
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:10.800
About everything that happened.

1129
01:01:11.239 --> 01:01:14.920
But she was very clear, every dime of this book

1130
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:19.880
will go to mental health, training, counseling, whatever. This is

1131
01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:22.559
too in no way to make money off of what

1132
01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:23.400
my son did.

1133
01:01:23.719 --> 01:01:24.760
I'm not going to make a dime.

1134
01:01:24.880 --> 01:01:26.400
And then when she got up on the Ted Talk,

1135
01:01:26.440 --> 01:01:30.679
she apologized profusely. It was genuine, it was I didn't know.

1136
01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:33.760
I you know, I've tried to apologize to these families.

1137
01:01:33.800 --> 01:01:36.159
I know they don't some accept it, some don't, But

1138
01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:38.360
this is what I did wrong as a parent, and

1139
01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:39.639
this is what I think.

1140
01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:42.039
How you know what he did wrong? Blah blah blah.

1141
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:45.000
I thought that that Ted talk was amazing because she

1142
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:51.440
accepts responsibility in the way that she can. To throw

1143
01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:54.360
this guy on that stage and say, let's not look

1144
01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:56.519
at what you did to these people, let's tap into

1145
01:01:56.559 --> 01:01:58.599
your brilliance is the sickest thing I've ever heard.

1146
01:01:59.199 --> 01:02:03.239
Yeah, and to be that naive to not I mean,

1147
01:02:03.760 --> 01:02:08.079
had she looked into him, I think that she would

1148
01:02:08.119 --> 01:02:13.920
have maybe reconsidered and giving him a stage of in

1149
01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:16.679
in any capacity, and to post it on YouTube, of

1150
01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:21.800
all things. Like YouTube is everywhere. It's all over the world.

1151
01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:26.360
Anybody can watch this, right, it's everywhere. And she gave

1152
01:02:26.480 --> 01:02:29.599
him a platform to talk not about what he did,

1153
01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:36.119
but about his brilliance inside right and about humanity. So

1154
01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:41.199
he knows about humanity, right, So go ahead, I.

1155
01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:41.559
Was gonna say.

1156
01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:44.360
And this is where I think I got frustrated him.

1157
01:02:44.360 --> 01:02:46.480
I don't think my listeners know this, but I do.

1158
01:02:46.559 --> 01:02:48.119
So that's why I want to talk about it. But

1159
01:02:49.480 --> 01:02:51.960
instead of the gracious thing of being like, you know what,

1160
01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:55.960
maybe I missed the boat on this one or whatever.

1161
01:02:56.400 --> 01:03:00.000
I was told that you, she blocked you. She blocked

1162
01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:02.840
you and your family from any type of contacting with her.

1163
01:03:02.840 --> 01:03:04.320
Can you tell me anything about that?

1164
01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:10.800
Yeah? So we At first, I'm not mad. I am

1165
01:03:11.639 --> 01:03:15.039
upset at the fact that we were not considered. Okay,

1166
01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:18.400
and you have a right to do whatever you want

1167
01:03:18.519 --> 01:03:21.440
and create whatever program you want, but I think that

1168
01:03:21.480 --> 01:03:24.280
there is a level of responsibility that you have to own.

1169
01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:27.760
And I wanted to make sure.

1170
01:03:27.599 --> 01:03:30.480
She knew that not to mention. That's part of rehabilitation.

1171
01:03:30.599 --> 01:03:33.000
By the way, you can't reb rehabilitated. And if you

1172
01:03:33.039 --> 01:03:35.639
don't accept and state exactly.

1173
01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:37.320
Acceptance is one of the hardest levels.

1174
01:03:38.599 --> 01:03:40.360
Okay, we're on the same page.

1175
01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:45.360
Yes, So I contact her through LinkedIn, through Facebook, through

1176
01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:49.159
whatever social media was around at the time. I sent

1177
01:03:49.239 --> 01:03:53.920
her the same letter with each thing. I was blocked immediately,

1178
01:03:55.280 --> 01:04:00.239
no response, nothing, crickets. I wrote the mentor was this

1179
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:02.760
guy name? I want to say it was Jim Johnson.

1180
01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:07.039
He was also a part of the brilliance inside. He

1181
01:04:07.119 --> 01:04:10.400
was the mentor that was helping DM do his speech.

1182
01:04:11.599 --> 01:04:15.480
And I could have the name incorrect, but I'm pretty

1183
01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:17.880
confident it was Jim something allegedly.

1184
01:04:18.039 --> 01:04:19.679
Allegedly, that's okay.

1185
01:04:19.480 --> 01:04:24.679
There you go. Allegedly. So Jim responded, but it was

1186
01:04:24.920 --> 01:04:26.840
very much on this on the path of this is

1187
01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:30.119
how we found out that we don't do any research

1188
01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:33.559
about what they had done because we don't want to

1189
01:04:33.639 --> 01:04:36.679
focus on their crime. We want to focus on their rehabilitation.

1190
01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:41.920
And then I was blocked after that because he didn't

1191
01:04:41.960 --> 01:04:45.719
want to continue that conversation. There were two hundred people

1192
01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:49.480
in that audience in the prison, two hundred people that

1193
01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:52.960
stood up for DM and gave him a standing ovation

1194
01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:58.719
after his you know, humanity talk, and.

1195
01:04:58.480 --> 01:05:05.039
That half of was fabricated great of course, or unvalid to.

1196
01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:07.760
Sound brilliant, right, You just need he needed to figure

1197
01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:10.639
out how he can manipulate the system into getting out

1198
01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:15.880
off this new proposition that had passed, and he needed

1199
01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:18.840
to look pretty right. He needed to show these people

1200
01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:21.679
that he was he was a good citizen in prison,

1201
01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:24.480
and he was he was doing all this work and

1202
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:29.039
changing and so that was the message that we were

1203
01:05:29.079 --> 01:05:32.840
trying to get to this woman. And ultimately our goal

1204
01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:35.199
was to get the video taken down because nobody needs

1205
01:05:35.239 --> 01:05:37.000
to give him any kind of spotlight.

1206
01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:43.239
And especially that timing was horrible, Yes, horrible, terrible.

1207
01:05:43.559 --> 01:05:45.239
So do you know how hard it is to get

1208
01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:46.559
a YouTube video taken down?

1209
01:05:46.719 --> 01:05:47.559
I have no idea.

1210
01:05:48.039 --> 01:05:51.880
It's virtually impossible. And that's what I was told over

1211
01:05:51.920 --> 01:05:55.920
and over again ted X. We contacted ted talk right

1212
01:05:55.960 --> 01:06:00.000
because ted X is like a sub category of tech,

1213
01:06:01.239 --> 01:06:04.639
and they actually responded and said that they were going

1214
01:06:04.679 --> 01:06:08.000
to do everything in their power to have help us

1215
01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:08.880
get this removed.

1216
01:06:08.920 --> 01:06:12.559
So kudos to them doing the right thing, respecting the

1217
01:06:12.639 --> 01:06:15.119
victim that hey, that puts a feather in their cat

1218
01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:15.400
for me.

1219
01:06:16.119 --> 01:06:19.760
They responded within hours of our first response to them,

1220
01:06:20.199 --> 01:06:25.079
our first notification to them, and we within forty eight

1221
01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:29.880
hours of my wife and I working relentlessly to get

1222
01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:33.800
this video taken down. We have a really good friend

1223
01:06:33.800 --> 01:06:37.960
who works for Google, and all of a sudden it's

1224
01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:38.760
just disappeared.

1225
01:06:40.599 --> 01:06:43.239
I find that to be wonderful. I think that's a

1226
01:06:43.280 --> 01:06:46.440
great win. But there should be a learning lesson in

1227
01:06:46.440 --> 01:06:49.840
this for everybody that I get the project that they

1228
01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:50.440
were trying to do.

1229
01:06:50.519 --> 01:06:52.000
I do in and of itself.

1230
01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:53.760
I get the project that you were trying to do,

1231
01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:56.960
but they missed the boat. And one of the biggest

1232
01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:00.840
things here is that failure to accept that you've hurt

1233
01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:04.760
some A simple apology just saying I'm so sorry.

1234
01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:06.880
That you are hurt by this.

1235
01:07:07.320 --> 01:07:09.760
We will learn, we will grow, and we would love

1236
01:07:09.800 --> 01:07:12.119
to have your input maybe in a future project.

1237
01:07:12.440 --> 01:07:15.639
Something would have been the right thing to do.

1238
01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:19.440
The idea of like the warden or somebody who has

1239
01:07:19.480 --> 01:07:25.079
to approve the prisoners doing these programs, which I am

1240
01:07:25.159 --> 01:07:29.239
all about rehabilitation. Yeah, if you are capable of it,

1241
01:07:29.840 --> 01:07:32.079
we know that he's not capable of it based off

1242
01:07:32.119 --> 01:07:36.159
of his hair assessment, like he's incapable of rehabilitation.

1243
01:07:36.559 --> 01:07:38.719
And that's the thing about a psychopath of his level

1244
01:07:38.760 --> 01:07:42.159
and his aptitude is that he was intelligent. He scored

1245
01:07:42.199 --> 01:07:44.280
high on intelligence tests, but he also scored off the

1246
01:07:44.360 --> 01:07:48.000
charts for being a psychopath. His skill in life, if

1247
01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:52.519
you want to give him the brilliance is to deceive, coerce, manipulate,

1248
01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:53.280
and charm.

1249
01:07:53.800 --> 01:07:56.039
There's your skill. Why don't you make the video on that?

1250
01:07:56.440 --> 01:08:02.079
But you know, and you yeah, right, maybe I'll make

1251
01:08:02.119 --> 01:08:05.719
the video now and it'll be called brilliantly psychotic on

1252
01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:06.440
the inside.

1253
01:08:06.519 --> 01:08:09.239
But so, and I don't want to go off from that.

1254
01:08:09.239 --> 01:08:11.119
But this is something else that people need to think

1255
01:08:11.119 --> 01:08:13.599
about because I'm guilty of it too, not thinking about

1256
01:08:13.599 --> 01:08:15.800
the long term effects that this can have. But then

1257
01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:19.119
you give this platform to this guy, and there's something

1258
01:08:19.159 --> 01:08:23.319
that people need to know that in prisons, the foundation

1259
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:29.279
of rehabilitation today currently is victim offender dialogue. It is

1260
01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:34.279
the foundation where these offenders have the if they want

1261
01:08:34.279 --> 01:08:37.199
to move forward in rehabilitation and in these programs that

1262
01:08:37.399 --> 01:08:40.359
even if let's say you were not willing to accept

1263
01:08:40.399 --> 01:08:42.199
a letter from him, which I don't think you would.

1264
01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:45.399
But let's say that you were not willing to well,

1265
01:08:45.479 --> 01:08:47.159
what they'll do then to say, you know what, They're

1266
01:08:47.159 --> 01:08:47.920
not ready.

1267
01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:49.199
To hear anything that you have to say.

1268
01:08:49.399 --> 01:08:52.359
However, step one is that you will write a letter

1269
01:08:52.439 --> 01:08:58.760
that one day if they want it, expressing your whatever

1270
01:08:58.800 --> 01:08:59.920
it is that you would like to say, and they

1271
01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:02.920
put that in their jacket or their file and it's there.

1272
01:09:03.199 --> 01:09:04.119
So guess the hell.

1273
01:09:04.199 --> 01:09:08.960
What if your whole project here is about rehabilitation, then

1274
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:12.600
maybe this is a suggestion ask the wardens, ask whoever

1275
01:09:12.680 --> 01:09:15.000
is in charge of these programs. Have they even taken

1276
01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:18.479
the first step of that victim offender dialogue to apologize?

1277
01:09:18.520 --> 01:09:20.520
Because if you're not willing to apologize, I don't need

1278
01:09:20.520 --> 01:09:23.479
you on my damn show. That's not rehabilitation. And so

1279
01:09:23.600 --> 01:09:26.560
that knowing the insides and the outsides, I think is

1280
01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:31.520
so incredibly important here to your to your point that

1281
01:09:32.079 --> 01:09:34.880
you know, so he didn't reach out.

1282
01:09:35.399 --> 01:09:37.520
He believes that hurt people, hurt people.

1283
01:09:37.319 --> 01:09:37.800
Hurt people.

1284
01:09:37.960 --> 01:09:39.840
Yeah, but you know what, I honed in on something

1285
01:09:39.880 --> 01:09:42.000
I don't. I don't think you have heard this part yet.

1286
01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:46.319
He says, I learned something so profound hurt people, hurt people.

1287
01:09:46.520 --> 01:09:49.199
But then his verb verbiage changes in the very next line.

1288
01:09:49.199 --> 01:09:50.520
And I want to make sure I tell you this

1289
01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:53.479
because he says not all of us are evil.

1290
01:09:53.520 --> 01:09:54.560
And I was like time.

1291
01:09:55.479 --> 01:09:58.680
Time out because nobody said anything about evil.

1292
01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:01.039
You said, hurt people, hurt people.

1293
01:10:01.039 --> 01:10:04.199
And then what you're saying is that evil people hurt people.

1294
01:10:04.560 --> 01:10:06.359
That's what you're saying, which.

1295
01:10:06.159 --> 01:10:09.319
Is just just dotting the eye and crossing the t

1296
01:10:10.159 --> 01:10:12.399
of what's going on. So if you pay attention to language,

1297
01:10:12.439 --> 01:10:14.680
which is a psychogy, and I'm not lecturing to you,

1298
01:10:14.720 --> 01:10:16.479
I'm sorry. I know you know this, but to the listener,

1299
01:10:16.840 --> 01:10:19.319
this is part of what a psychopath does. Is they

1300
01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:23.000
use their language to control, conceive, and or deceive and

1301
01:10:23.479 --> 01:10:26.079
all these things. It's it's paint by numbers. If you

1302
01:10:26.119 --> 01:10:32.079
look at his at his speech, you know. So as

1303
01:10:32.159 --> 01:10:35.199
far as the penalty that he did get, or that's

1304
01:10:35.239 --> 01:10:37.520
what you did to work to try to combat the

1305
01:10:37.960 --> 01:10:41.279
first proposition, you did get that scrub from the internet.

1306
01:10:41.359 --> 01:10:45.359
And then came about thirteen ninety one House Bill thirteen

1307
01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:46.760
ninety one, which.

1308
01:10:46.680 --> 01:10:49.119
Was Senate Bill thirteen ninety one.

1309
01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:53.880
Excuse me, what's that? I meant? Senate Bill I mispose,

1310
01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:54.640
so you're sorry.

1311
01:10:55.279 --> 01:10:58.840
Senate Bhil thirteen ninety one was basically waiting in the

1312
01:10:58.960 --> 01:11:03.399
in the back ground. Once Prop fifty seven came into effect,

1313
01:11:03.399 --> 01:11:05.800
they were like, Ooh, now's the time we're gonna put

1314
01:11:05.800 --> 01:11:09.239
this one out, and Senebil thirteen ninety one basically took

1315
01:11:09.920 --> 01:11:14.960
the law out of the district attorney's hand put it

1316
01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:19.359
into the judge's hand, but then said, but if you're

1317
01:11:19.359 --> 01:11:22.199
fourteen or fifteen, you'll never get tried as an.

1318
01:11:22.159 --> 01:11:25.439
Adult ever, no matter ever what you.

1319
01:11:25.439 --> 01:11:29.399
Do, no matter what the crime, no matter what the crime.

1320
01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:32.960
So you could go into a school and you can

1321
01:11:33.039 --> 01:11:36.079
shoot up anybody and everybody that you want, and if

1322
01:11:36.119 --> 01:11:39.119
you're fourteen or fifteen, you will be no matter what,

1323
01:11:40.039 --> 01:11:44.880
free at the age of twenty five, with no parole,

1324
01:11:44.920 --> 01:11:48.239
with no history, with nothing. You got a clean slate.

1325
01:11:48.279 --> 01:11:50.960
When you're twenty five, you could be in a gang

1326
01:11:51.039 --> 01:11:54.319
and you could go shoot up somebody. You're fourteen or fifteen,

1327
01:11:55.039 --> 01:12:00.640
you're out at twenty five, Like it's ludicrous. Oh yeah, Chris,

1328
01:12:00.680 --> 01:12:04.319
blanket law across for everybody. Doesn't matter what type of

1329
01:12:04.359 --> 01:12:05.119
crime it is.

1330
01:12:05.760 --> 01:12:09.920
It could be I'm it could be Grandza. Oh it

1331
01:12:09.960 --> 01:12:12.359
could be it could be Grandza.

1332
01:12:12.359 --> 01:12:15.319
He So they decide they're going to put this in

1333
01:12:15.359 --> 01:12:21.159
front of the Senate, and the House signs off, the

1334
01:12:21.199 --> 01:12:24.600
Senate signs off. So next on August thirty first, that

1335
01:12:24.680 --> 01:12:28.439
bill goes to the governor. Governor Jerry Brown receives Senate

1336
01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:31.039
Bill thirteen ninety one. He has thirty days to sign

1337
01:12:31.119 --> 01:12:34.760
it into place. So I found out on the thirty

1338
01:12:34.760 --> 01:12:39.039
first of August and my Da called me, and she

1339
01:12:39.199 --> 01:12:43.279
her name's Amanda Zambor, and we are friends now because

1340
01:12:43.319 --> 01:12:46.359
this united us on a front that I never thought

1341
01:12:46.399 --> 01:12:51.159
I would be capable of doing or you know. So

1342
01:12:51.720 --> 01:12:54.600
she calls me and she's like, I do not want

1343
01:12:54.640 --> 01:12:58.920
to tell you this, Like shit is real right now,

1344
01:12:59.399 --> 01:13:05.279
and this I cannot guarantee you that he's going to

1345
01:13:05.279 --> 01:13:08.760
stay in prison. I cannot guarantee anything because of what

1346
01:13:08.920 --> 01:13:12.880
this bill is doing. And because we had this fitness

1347
01:13:12.880 --> 01:13:15.720
hearing that was now in place because of Prop. Fifty seven,

1348
01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:20.520
which was scheduled for October first, So timeline August thirty first,

1349
01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:25.039
October first, we have thirty days for that governor to

1350
01:13:25.079 --> 01:13:28.399
sign that bill into effect and then hope if he

1351
01:13:28.520 --> 01:13:31.319
doesn't sign it and he vetos it then we're okay,

1352
01:13:31.560 --> 01:13:34.680
because we'll do the fitness hearing, he'll get tried as

1353
01:13:34.720 --> 01:13:36.800
an adult and YadA YadA.

1354
01:13:36.920 --> 01:13:39.239
I assume ain't going assuming.

1355
01:13:38.960 --> 01:13:43.239
Right, So I said to Amanda, what do we gotta do?

1356
01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:46.359
And she goes, well, right now, we're doing a press

1357
01:13:46.359 --> 01:13:48.840
confidence on the seventh of September. And I said, I'm

1358
01:13:48.840 --> 01:13:52.039
going to be there. I'm in Colorado. This is California.

1359
01:13:52.239 --> 01:13:54.920
I'll be there. She's like, oh my god, yes please.

1360
01:13:55.079 --> 01:13:56.680
And I said, who's at the press commence. She's like,

1361
01:13:56.760 --> 01:13:58.840
all the news outlets are going to be there. We're

1362
01:13:58.840 --> 01:14:01.920
going to talk about this bill and how it's going

1363
01:14:01.920 --> 01:14:03.600
to affect. And I said, who else will be there?

1364
01:14:03.680 --> 01:14:06.399
She goes the four district attorneys who are opposed to

1365
01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:10.640
it because they've already been stripped of their responsibility to

1366
01:14:10.760 --> 01:14:15.880
determine if it is a juvenile or an adult case, right,

1367
01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:18.560
because that got put already got put into the judge's

1368
01:14:18.600 --> 01:14:22.359
hands with Prop. Fifty seven. So these four das were

1369
01:14:22.399 --> 01:14:27.319
the four das that had the most cases I guess

1370
01:14:27.560 --> 01:14:29.880
that are going to be affected by thirteen ninety one.

1371
01:14:30.399 --> 01:14:32.880
And there's like nine, there's.

1372
01:14:32.680 --> 01:14:35.880
Not a lot nine. That's nine too many out of.

1373
01:14:35.840 --> 01:14:39.159
Like me that sixty thousand cases or whatever it was,

1374
01:14:39.199 --> 01:14:42.199
it was a crazy number. Out of sixty thousand cases,

1375
01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:44.760
only nine were going to be affected by this law.

1376
01:14:45.399 --> 01:14:50.000
And of those nine cases, they're all pretty bad. I

1377
01:14:50.039 --> 01:14:52.359
can tell you every single family member. I can tell

1378
01:14:52.359 --> 01:14:56.399
you every single story behind the families that are victims

1379
01:14:56.439 --> 01:15:02.920
to these types of heinous crimes. And so we're gonna

1380
01:15:02.960 --> 01:15:05.720
we're doing this press conference and I well, like I

1381
01:15:05.720 --> 01:15:08.840
need to understand this bill, and here comes law for

1382
01:15:08.920 --> 01:15:12.159
dummies again. I'm all right, I know what Prop fifty

1383
01:15:12.159 --> 01:15:14.800
seven is. I'm now an expert of thirteen ninety one

1384
01:15:15.199 --> 01:15:18.520
and I'm speaking to the state of California. That's what

1385
01:15:18.600 --> 01:15:19.239
I'm doing.

1386
01:15:19.399 --> 01:15:22.399
So locally so people can see how important this case is.

1387
01:15:22.479 --> 01:15:26.760
It's everywhere. Even though it's in California, it can happen anywhere.

1388
01:15:26.800 --> 01:15:28.960
Because we just had a shooting here at our mall

1389
01:15:29.000 --> 01:15:31.840
in Louisiana. Well, there was a kid that was not

1390
01:15:32.000 --> 01:15:34.720
the shooter, but was you know, tied into the mix

1391
01:15:34.760 --> 01:15:37.760
and being searched as he thought he was a part

1392
01:15:37.800 --> 01:15:39.159
of it. We still don't have all the answers on

1393
01:15:39.159 --> 01:15:41.600
this one, but regardless, when they arrested him, he had

1394
01:15:41.640 --> 01:15:43.399
drugs and guns and all of that, and he was

1395
01:15:43.399 --> 01:15:44.159
put in our jail.

1396
01:15:44.359 --> 01:15:45.800
Well, it just so happens.

1397
01:15:45.680 --> 01:15:49.760
That he had been arrested just prior to that in

1398
01:15:49.880 --> 01:15:52.119
school as a young teenager because he had a gun

1399
01:15:52.159 --> 01:15:55.319
that quote unquote went off in a classroom and then

1400
01:15:55.359 --> 01:15:58.079
they thought it was appropriate to take off, you know,

1401
01:15:58.119 --> 01:16:01.479
his ankle monitor before he even went to court for that.

1402
01:16:02.039 --> 01:16:06.159
So to think that there's a blanket law that these

1403
01:16:06.359 --> 01:16:10.119
that these my point is that juvenile judges. I'm not

1404
01:16:10.279 --> 01:16:12.279
saying anything bad about them, but when you put all

1405
01:16:12.319 --> 01:16:15.680
of this in one person's hand, one bad decision can

1406
01:16:15.800 --> 01:16:17.600
lead to more victims.

1407
01:16:18.319 --> 01:16:20.880
Yes, you know, So.

1408
01:16:22.479 --> 01:16:24.520
I just relate to what you're saying because it's happening

1409
01:16:24.600 --> 01:16:27.239
right now and we're seeing it. Just because you're a

1410
01:16:27.279 --> 01:16:31.920
kid doesn't mean that you're not capable of horrendous things, right,

1411
01:16:32.840 --> 01:16:34.920
because if you would have shot somebody in that classroom

1412
01:16:35.279 --> 01:16:37.319
in California, if he would have shot somebody in that

1413
01:16:37.359 --> 01:16:40.760
classroom because he's a young teen, it wouldn't even matter

1414
01:16:40.800 --> 01:16:41.720
what if it was your kid.

1415
01:16:42.399 --> 01:16:44.119
Yeah, that's crazy.

1416
01:16:44.159 --> 01:16:46.680
And for like a like thinking about a gang, right

1417
01:16:46.760 --> 01:16:52.039
and like they could the gang members could use the

1418
01:16:52.159 --> 01:16:55.479
youngest gang members to do the biggest crimes because it

1419
01:16:55.479 --> 01:16:57.199
doesn't matter. You're gonna get out in ten years.

1420
01:16:57.199 --> 01:16:59.039
You'll be fine, and you'll be a martyr and you'll

1421
01:16:59.079 --> 01:17:01.039
be a big dog in a gang and blah blah

1422
01:17:01.039 --> 01:17:02.000
blah blah blah.

1423
01:17:02.279 --> 01:17:05.239
You're going to represent you know, Like I'm not trying

1424
01:17:05.239 --> 01:17:07.600
to be enable, like gangs are a legit thing. No,

1425
01:17:07.720 --> 01:17:12.720
I know, Come on, Like, how come I, the non

1426
01:17:12.840 --> 01:17:17.800
law person, Yeah, is like aware of the capacity. How

1427
01:17:18.159 --> 01:17:22.439
stupid this law is, And like I get Prop fifty seven,

1428
01:17:22.479 --> 01:17:24.920
I would have voted for it. I would have voted

1429
01:17:24.920 --> 01:17:28.239
for it hands down. I think it's important to really

1430
01:17:28.279 --> 01:17:31.319
dial into the factors of why a juvenile is tried

1431
01:17:31.359 --> 01:17:34.760
as an adult. Of the people that were in the

1432
01:17:34.800 --> 01:17:39.000
state of California at the time of this, nine juveniles

1433
01:17:39.039 --> 01:17:42.279
are being tried as an adult. Nine. That's not a

1434
01:17:42.319 --> 01:17:45.960
lot of people. It's a small percentage. So of those nine,

1435
01:17:46.159 --> 01:17:49.920
let's be smart about it. Yeah, how did they commit

1436
01:17:49.960 --> 01:17:50.720
those crimes?

1437
01:17:50.920 --> 01:17:51.159
Right?

1438
01:17:52.039 --> 01:17:52.239
Right?

1439
01:17:52.279 --> 01:17:55.920
And the fact that but and to me, nine there

1440
01:17:55.960 --> 01:17:58.720
were nine juveniles that were capable of doing it. Like

1441
01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:01.079
on the other side of it, I'm like, there's not

1442
01:18:01.359 --> 01:18:03.760
just this isn't one in one hundred years.

1443
01:18:03.800 --> 01:18:06.239
This is nine right now that these cases are affecting.

1444
01:18:06.560 --> 01:18:10.359
So you become an advocate for this, which you didn't

1445
01:18:10.359 --> 01:18:11.079
plan on doing.

1446
01:18:11.159 --> 01:18:13.439
But I wanted to veto this law. I had. I

1447
01:18:13.520 --> 01:18:16.239
was going to do anything and everything to veto this law.

1448
01:18:16.439 --> 01:18:18.960
And so I really became the face of SB thirteen

1449
01:18:19.039 --> 01:18:22.039
ninety one. I love it, and with my wife's brilliance

1450
01:18:22.079 --> 01:18:24.199
expertise when it comes to technical things.

1451
01:18:24.600 --> 01:18:27.279
Shout out planning, and you and I aren't those technical people.

1452
01:18:28.399 --> 01:18:33.000
I'm not. We've got a petition going. We had over

1453
01:18:33.039 --> 01:18:36.800
ten thousand signatures on the petition to all about just

1454
01:18:36.920 --> 01:18:38.840
vetoing this law. We got to get rid of this law.

1455
01:18:38.880 --> 01:18:40.560
We got to make sure Jerry Brown knows that he

1456
01:18:40.600 --> 01:18:43.960
should not sign this into law. And then you know,

1457
01:18:44.039 --> 01:18:47.359
we've got time, but we're you know, he has thirty days.

1458
01:18:47.399 --> 01:18:50.199
He could do it any day, so we need to

1459
01:18:50.199 --> 01:18:52.199
get in front of him. The faster we can get

1460
01:18:52.199 --> 01:18:53.920
in front of him, the better. So then we plan

1461
01:18:54.560 --> 01:18:58.680
a rally and it's a peaceful protest is what we

1462
01:18:58.760 --> 01:19:02.000
called it, because it wasn't to cause a big scene.

1463
01:19:02.239 --> 01:19:05.439
It was to let people know that this could affect them,

1464
01:19:05.439 --> 01:19:08.600
the citizens, This could affect them, so we flew again

1465
01:19:08.680 --> 01:19:10.800
to California. I think I flew to California three times

1466
01:19:10.840 --> 01:19:11.359
that month.

1467
01:19:11.159 --> 01:19:12.680
Which I want to point out, all of this is

1468
01:19:12.680 --> 01:19:15.439
a financial investment on your part to have to take

1469
01:19:15.439 --> 01:19:17.279
off work, to fly to do all of this.

1470
01:19:18.000 --> 01:19:22.279
Yes, yes, And I do want to point out through

1471
01:19:22.399 --> 01:19:25.079
all of this, I worked for this company that was

1472
01:19:25.239 --> 01:19:30.880
incredible and they from day one never asked me to

1473
01:19:31.279 --> 01:19:33.760
put a vacation day in. They never asked me to

1474
01:19:33.800 --> 01:19:37.560
put in bereavement nothing. They for the entirety of the trial,

1475
01:19:37.680 --> 01:19:39.760
for the entirety of all the times flying back.

1476
01:19:39.640 --> 01:19:40.720
And forth, amazing.

1477
01:19:41.640 --> 01:19:44.920
They were an incredible company. Their name was Noodles and Company,

1478
01:19:45.000 --> 01:19:48.520
or is Noodles in Company? But they were really pivotal

1479
01:19:48.560 --> 01:19:50.479
because it wasn't just me, it was my wife as

1480
01:19:50.520 --> 01:19:51.720
well who also worked for this.

1481
01:19:52.199 --> 01:19:54.079
That's people loving people, That's what that is.

1482
01:19:54.239 --> 01:19:57.279
Yeah, it was a really incredible company to work for.

1483
01:19:58.399 --> 01:20:01.159
So I I'm out there for the third time for

1484
01:20:01.239 --> 01:20:04.319
our peaceful protest, and this was September twenty seventh of

1485
01:20:04.520 --> 01:20:07.680
twenty eighteen, and we stood in front of the Capitol.

1486
01:20:08.000 --> 01:20:10.159
We all had T shirts made, we had and I

1487
01:20:10.199 --> 01:20:12.800
had a picture of Granza just like this angelic picture

1488
01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:16.119
of Granza and it said vetosb thirteen ninety one. We

1489
01:20:16.159 --> 01:20:19.000
had the petitions, we had banners, we had posters, we

1490
01:20:19.079 --> 01:20:24.039
had all nine families represented. Every single family came and

1491
01:20:24.720 --> 01:20:29.199
talked about their individual who they'd lost, and I mean

1492
01:20:29.239 --> 01:20:32.880
we became a family. We're still all connected, we still

1493
01:20:33.520 --> 01:20:37.359
talk on Facebook and Instagram, and we are all still

1494
01:20:37.479 --> 01:20:42.079
very rooted because of this experience. And we had a

1495
01:20:42.119 --> 01:20:45.000
ton of representation there. We had forty eight hours had

1496
01:20:45.039 --> 01:20:47.760
picked up our story in the beginning of September, and

1497
01:20:47.760 --> 01:20:49.239
we're like, we're going to be there. We're going to

1498
01:20:49.279 --> 01:20:51.319
be we're going to record, we're going to interview people,

1499
01:20:51.319 --> 01:20:53.479
we're gonna do all things. So and then the news

1500
01:20:53.560 --> 01:20:57.079
was there because you know, I'm like, let's get everybody. Yeah,

1501
01:20:57.119 --> 01:21:00.359
So we had a lot of representation there. And then

1502
01:21:00.439 --> 01:21:03.840
forty eight hours somehow pulled some strings and got us

1503
01:21:03.880 --> 01:21:08.800
into the Governor's office. So at one point during the rally,

1504
01:21:09.680 --> 01:21:14.800
we marched to the front doors of the Capitol together

1505
01:21:15.119 --> 01:21:17.520
all I don't know sixty of us that were there,

1506
01:21:18.159 --> 01:21:20.279
and in the process of.

1507
01:21:20.239 --> 01:21:22.840
Singing, I wish it was sixty seven of y'all just

1508
01:21:22.880 --> 01:21:24.399
say that it was sixty seven of.

1509
01:21:24.399 --> 01:21:31.000
Y'alls roughly, and we marched in to the courthouse and

1510
01:21:31.079 --> 01:21:36.279
it was this, you know, Sacramento Capital. It's like huge.

1511
01:21:36.359 --> 01:21:39.800
And we get in there and everybody asked me to

1512
01:21:39.800 --> 01:21:42.800
be the representative to go to speak to the governor.

1513
01:21:43.279 --> 01:21:47.079
And I took the petitions because we had so many signatures,

1514
01:21:47.520 --> 01:21:52.000
and I stood at the doors of the Governor's office

1515
01:21:52.279 --> 01:21:54.520
and I turned around, I looked at everybody and I said,

1516
01:21:54.840 --> 01:21:57.720
I'm doing this for Granza, I'm doing this for Chip.

1517
01:21:57.760 --> 01:22:00.479
And I looked at each person who was representing I'm

1518
01:22:00.479 --> 01:22:04.359
doing this, or Maddie Middleton in Santa Cruz, I'm doing

1519
01:22:04.399 --> 01:22:08.000
this for Dido Mendez of Tracy, California. And I literally

1520
01:22:08.079 --> 01:22:11.720
just went down the aisle of saying their names and

1521
01:22:11.760 --> 01:22:14.479
honoring them and through my tears, and I walked in

1522
01:22:14.520 --> 01:22:17.319
that through the doors and I was greeted by like

1523
01:22:17.439 --> 01:22:22.960
I don't know ten officers and the governor's assistant. And

1524
01:22:23.279 --> 01:22:25.479
I went into this room and I was like so

1525
01:22:25.600 --> 01:22:28.880
overwhelmed with just the reality that we could do this.

1526
01:22:29.720 --> 01:22:33.279
And his executive he didn't come, of course, I don't

1527
01:22:33.319 --> 01:22:36.439
even know if he was there, but his executive assistant

1528
01:22:36.560 --> 01:22:39.319
was there and she was like, her name was Gabby,

1529
01:22:39.399 --> 01:22:41.960
and we just started talking and I'm like, we're here

1530
01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:44.640
because we really believe that this bill should not go

1531
01:22:44.640 --> 01:22:47.720
into place, and if he could you help us by

1532
01:22:47.800 --> 01:22:49.520
vedoing this bill. And I just kind of like went

1533
01:22:49.520 --> 01:22:51.000
into it a little bit with her, and I handed

1534
01:22:51.000 --> 01:22:55.039
her the petition. I was like, here's a hard copy

1535
01:22:55.079 --> 01:22:58.239
of it, and we're just really hopeful that he's going

1536
01:22:58.319 --> 01:23:01.199
to do the right thing in this and she said

1537
01:23:01.199 --> 01:23:04.279
thank you. She shook my hand, and then I walked

1538
01:23:04.319 --> 01:23:07.439
out and we all walked out together like this team.

1539
01:23:07.520 --> 01:23:09.600
And I was like, we've done everything that we can't

1540
01:23:09.680 --> 01:23:11.840
there's nothing else we can do, right, It's all it's

1541
01:23:11.880 --> 01:23:16.399
a waiting game. And so this September thirtieth came and

1542
01:23:16.520 --> 01:23:19.920
I'm at my mom's house. I'm still in Sacramento because

1543
01:23:20.199 --> 01:23:24.359
it's last minute. It's like eight twenty four pm. And

1544
01:23:24.439 --> 01:23:26.960
we get the notification on her phone that he's signed

1545
01:23:26.960 --> 01:23:32.239
the bill. He signed the bill into law, and his

1546
01:23:33.079 --> 01:23:38.119
response to us, the families that the nine families was

1547
01:23:39.039 --> 01:23:43.439
it's going to be okay, because what will happen is

1548
01:23:44.079 --> 01:23:47.399
every year, after the individuals are twenty five years old,

1549
01:23:47.880 --> 01:23:52.600
they still have to stand before parole and the parole

1550
01:23:52.640 --> 01:23:58.119
board will determine if they have our you know, able

1551
01:23:58.159 --> 01:24:01.720
to go back into the community. Okay, So then if

1552
01:24:01.720 --> 01:24:03.399
they do get to go back in the community, the

1553
01:24:03.520 --> 01:24:07.279
DA still has the opportunity to make some stances, but

1554
01:24:07.479 --> 01:24:10.039
for every two years, so the rest of their life,

1555
01:24:10.399 --> 01:24:11.760
they have to stand before.

1556
01:24:11.560 --> 01:24:14.560
Parole board, which means for every two years, for the

1557
01:24:14.560 --> 01:24:16.520
rest of your life, my life.

1558
01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:17.640
You're going to be my.

1559
01:24:17.720 --> 01:24:21.640
Mom's life, and the rest of my wife's life and all.

1560
01:24:21.479 --> 01:24:23.479
Of those, and God forbid something happen to you the

1561
01:24:23.479 --> 01:24:26.479
rest of my life because I'm on Grands's team. I'm

1562
01:24:26.520 --> 01:24:29.479
in Grands's gang. I'm creating Grands's gang, all right.

1563
01:24:29.680 --> 01:24:31.479
And I will be there every.

1564
01:24:31.199 --> 01:24:34.479
Day for the rest you know. Ever, so so we

1565
01:24:34.760 --> 01:24:38.960
fell into this category now where he will not be

1566
01:24:39.039 --> 01:24:43.720
tried as an adult. But we had a little time,

1567
01:24:43.800 --> 01:24:47.600
a little window. This was now September thirtieth. We had

1568
01:24:47.800 --> 01:24:51.439
three full months because it wasn't going to an effect

1569
01:24:51.520 --> 01:24:56.159
until January first, So our fitness hearing started the next

1570
01:24:56.239 --> 01:25:00.439
day October first. So fancy it all worked out and

1571
01:25:00.680 --> 01:25:04.439
the judge had an opportunity. He knew this bill. The

1572
01:25:04.560 --> 01:25:08.279
judge when we started the when he called the thing

1573
01:25:08.319 --> 01:25:12.319
into you know, hit his gabble, he said, I am

1574
01:25:12.479 --> 01:25:14.199
very aware of what's going on in the news right

1575
01:25:14.239 --> 01:25:18.119
now with SB thirteen ninety one, and I am an

1576
01:25:18.119 --> 01:25:22.279
advocate of continuing in this process with the fitness hearing.

1577
01:25:23.119 --> 01:25:27.880
And it was like, because we have thirty we have

1578
01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:31.319
three months. He could still be tried as an adult

1579
01:25:31.359 --> 01:25:35.680
because the fitness hearing covers us until the end.

1580
01:25:35.640 --> 01:25:36.960
Of I Got you, I Got you.

1581
01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:37.760
Does that make sense?

1582
01:25:37.840 --> 01:25:38.840
Yeah, I got you.

1583
01:25:39.039 --> 01:25:41.960
So then he decides we're doing that. We're doing the

1584
01:25:41.960 --> 01:25:45.319
fitness hearing. So for the next two weeks we basically

1585
01:25:45.399 --> 01:25:49.159
have a retrial. It's not a trial. It's like we're

1586
01:25:49.159 --> 01:25:50.880
just going to dive into all the things that he

1587
01:25:50.960 --> 01:25:53.960
did and why we determined that he was best fit

1588
01:25:54.039 --> 01:25:55.760
to be tried as an adult. So it was a

1589
01:25:55.800 --> 01:25:59.720
little more graphic, a little more ainus when it came

1590
01:25:59.760 --> 01:26:02.600
to the nature of the crimes, the torture part, you know,

1591
01:26:02.800 --> 01:26:06.079
learning that my grandson, you know, defended herself and fought

1592
01:26:06.079 --> 01:26:09.880
for her life and that she wouldn't die. Oh god,

1593
01:26:09.960 --> 01:26:14.279
that is that wrecked me. She just that lady just

1594
01:26:14.319 --> 01:26:18.399
she just thought old lady just wouldn't die. And then

1595
01:26:19.199 --> 01:26:24.479
a week into it, he took the stand, and in

1596
01:26:24.640 --> 01:26:26.840
him taking the stand, he wanted to talk about his

1597
01:26:26.920 --> 01:26:30.159
rehabilitation and the things that he had done, which was

1598
01:26:30.199 --> 01:26:34.760
only the ted X top thing, and he talked about

1599
01:26:34.840 --> 01:26:36.920
the same things. You know, he had hurt. You know,

1600
01:26:37.000 --> 01:26:39.920
he had hurt people, and he was sorry that he

1601
01:26:40.039 --> 01:26:43.720
hurt people. But he didn't say, I'm sorry I killed

1602
01:26:43.720 --> 01:26:48.279
her grandmother. I genuinely am very sorry that I did that,

1603
01:26:48.600 --> 01:26:50.520
and I am a changed man. No, he did not

1604
01:26:50.640 --> 01:26:53.640
say that. He's like I heard people as he looked

1605
01:26:53.680 --> 01:27:01.800
down at the ground, you know, I'm sorry I hurt people. So,

1606
01:27:02.760 --> 01:27:05.520
you know, then the judge ruled in our favor and

1607
01:27:05.800 --> 01:27:08.920
he should have been tried as an adult. And basically

1608
01:27:08.960 --> 01:27:13.159
at the end of the fitness hearing, he said, case closed.

1609
01:27:14.119 --> 01:27:15.359
So he's done. He's cooked.

1610
01:27:15.399 --> 01:27:18.439
He's he's cooked. He does not fall, he will not

1611
01:27:18.600 --> 01:27:24.119
fall into SB thirteen ninety one unless an appeal goes

1612
01:27:24.159 --> 01:27:29.520
into his favor. And so he tried for three full

1613
01:27:29.640 --> 01:27:33.800
years of appeals.

1614
01:27:32.239 --> 01:27:34.920
And I read through him. I read through them everything

1615
01:27:34.920 --> 01:27:38.680
I could find online. But luckily the right side of

1616
01:27:38.720 --> 01:27:42.039
things prevailed. So he is in prison. And I did

1617
01:27:42.520 --> 01:27:45.000
I did say on Patreon, and I have a picture

1618
01:27:45.039 --> 01:27:48.840
of his current doc status and all of that which

1619
01:27:48.840 --> 01:27:50.760
I mentioned. But before we close, I do want to

1620
01:27:50.800 --> 01:27:54.760
talk about your book real quick because I'm very excited,

1621
01:27:54.800 --> 01:27:59.199
and I fully expect a signed copy and I'll.

1622
01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:02.000
Pay the postage get it, Okay, fully expect because I

1623
01:28:02.000 --> 01:28:02.520
want to read it.

1624
01:28:03.119 --> 01:28:04.800
But can you tell me just real quick about the

1625
01:28:04.840 --> 01:28:06.760
book and the plans and when it should get out,

1626
01:28:06.800 --> 01:28:08.159
come out and all that if you know?

1627
01:28:08.640 --> 01:28:12.960
Yes, So, I actually I am speaking with my PR person

1628
01:28:13.000 --> 01:28:17.960
today to determine an official published date, so that is

1629
01:28:18.000 --> 01:28:21.399
in the very near future. I have been promoting it.

1630
01:28:21.399 --> 01:28:24.439
It is complete, it is in a place where we're

1631
01:28:24.439 --> 01:28:27.079
working on the final touches such as the cover and

1632
01:28:27.239 --> 01:28:30.279
the layout, now that kind of stuff. It is a

1633
01:28:30.520 --> 01:28:35.840
true crime narrative slash memoir. It's its own entity of

1634
01:28:35.880 --> 01:28:38.399
a book. I don't have never read anything like it,

1635
01:28:38.800 --> 01:28:42.479
because I do a different thing. The book title is

1636
01:28:43.079 --> 01:28:50.359
will Be sixty seven Times, and it's the story of

1637
01:28:51.359 --> 01:28:55.359
murder and grief and the radical power of showing up.

1638
01:28:56.119 --> 01:28:57.079
Oh. I love it.

1639
01:28:58.439 --> 01:29:01.520
It's a love story to who Granza was to me

1640
01:29:02.720 --> 01:29:07.159
and you know who she was in this world. It's

1641
01:29:07.880 --> 01:29:12.399
the story of grief and losing somebody that had such

1642
01:29:12.399 --> 01:29:15.399
an impact on my life. But the most important thing

1643
01:29:15.520 --> 01:29:20.079
was how I found my superpower, and that superpower was

1644
01:29:20.119 --> 01:29:22.319
instilled in me by her and all the things that

1645
01:29:22.359 --> 01:29:24.319
she had taught me through my life to be able

1646
01:29:24.319 --> 01:29:25.760
to show up for her in a way that I

1647
01:29:25.800 --> 01:29:27.920
have been able to do in the last thirteen years.

1648
01:29:28.479 --> 01:29:32.319
And it's that journey. It's it is not It is

1649
01:29:32.359 --> 01:29:35.640
not an easy read in a sense of there are

1650
01:29:36.119 --> 01:29:39.439
graphic details. It is a true crime. I mean, I'm

1651
01:29:39.479 --> 01:29:42.439
writing this because it is a true crime, but it's

1652
01:29:42.600 --> 01:29:45.880
really about how she showed me how to be this

1653
01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:51.479
person and how to still be alive and well and present,

1654
01:29:52.159 --> 01:29:55.560
and how she lives through me every day. And I

1655
01:29:55.600 --> 01:29:58.319
think that as hard as it is to read in

1656
01:29:58.359 --> 01:30:02.079
certain parts, it's so so beautiful. It is a beautiful

1657
01:30:02.079 --> 01:30:05.039
book that represents who she was in this world to

1658
01:30:05.159 --> 01:30:07.880
not just me, but to everybody that saw her. You know,

1659
01:30:07.920 --> 01:30:10.520
people used to tell me all the time around her funeral,

1660
01:30:12.239 --> 01:30:14.800
your grandson was my best friend, and I was like,

1661
01:30:15.399 --> 01:30:20.840
she's my best friend. Everybody thought she was their best friend,

1662
01:30:21.399 --> 01:30:24.880
and that was the woman that she was. She made

1663
01:30:24.920 --> 01:30:27.239
you feel like you were the only person that mattered

1664
01:30:27.239 --> 01:30:31.680
in the room because she believed. She believed that and

1665
01:30:33.199 --> 01:30:37.439
to share that piece of her with everybody. Like I

1666
01:30:37.479 --> 01:30:40.600
remember being a little jealous at the funeral, being like, well,

1667
01:30:40.600 --> 01:30:43.159
but she was my best friend. But no, like she

1668
01:30:43.399 --> 01:30:47.479
had so many people that she impacted. And she may

1669
01:30:47.560 --> 01:30:51.439
not have been, you know, a president of the United States,

1670
01:30:51.439 --> 01:30:55.600
even though she thought I'd be. She didn't have a

1671
01:30:55.640 --> 01:30:58.079
ton of success in her life when it came to

1672
01:30:58.119 --> 01:31:01.520
her a career. She was an engineer, a technician that

1673
01:31:01.600 --> 01:31:04.840
worked at pack Bell in the phone company. Right. She

1674
01:31:05.039 --> 01:31:07.279
it wasn't fancy. She didn't have a fancy car. She

1675
01:31:07.319 --> 01:31:10.039
didn't have an elaborate house, even though I thought it was,

1676
01:31:10.319 --> 01:31:12.239
like I thought it was the best place in the

1677
01:31:12.319 --> 01:31:15.600
world to go to her cozy cottage. And she always

1678
01:31:15.640 --> 01:31:18.199
had a Christmas tree out like she there were things

1679
01:31:18.199 --> 01:31:23.119
that she did that just were like beautiful things of recognition, right,

1680
01:31:24.680 --> 01:31:28.279
but not something you write a book about. And so

1681
01:31:28.439 --> 01:31:33.079
I wrote a book about who she was. And you know,

1682
01:31:33.239 --> 01:31:35.840
like she was the woman that sat on the couch

1683
01:31:35.880 --> 01:31:37.439
at the end of the day with a scoop of

1684
01:31:37.479 --> 01:31:39.960
ice cream or a glass of wine, like Chip rubbed

1685
01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:43.479
her feet and they watched crime shows because that was

1686
01:31:43.520 --> 01:31:45.920
their thing. They loved crime.

1687
01:31:46.600 --> 01:31:46.840
You know.

1688
01:31:47.479 --> 01:31:49.319
I always said that when I was in the courtroom,

1689
01:31:49.359 --> 01:31:52.079
she was sitting next to me holding the space because

1690
01:31:52.079 --> 01:31:53.079
she didn't want to miss anything.

1691
01:31:53.119 --> 01:31:57.000
It was her show. She got her own show, right, yeah.

1692
01:31:56.840 --> 01:31:57.359
She did.

1693
01:31:57.560 --> 01:31:58.920
Well you know why she was there.

1694
01:31:58.960 --> 01:32:01.079
But she Hey, that's okay, everybody's here.

1695
01:32:01.119 --> 01:32:01.800
I need to be here.

1696
01:32:02.079 --> 01:32:03.000
I want to tell you.

1697
01:32:06.520 --> 01:32:18.399
Uh, oh, did you push a button? Can you hear me? Oh? No, Grandsa,

1698
01:32:21.079 --> 01:32:21.800
that's twice.

1699
01:32:24.359 --> 01:33:00.279
No, h.

1700
01:33:16.479 --> 01:33:16.960
She's here.

1701
01:33:19.520 --> 01:33:54.159
Okay, I'm never using this microphone ever again.

1702
01:33:54.239 --> 01:33:56.640
Him my life. So sorry.

1703
01:33:56.680 --> 01:33:58.479
I mean, she just wanted me to tell you that

1704
01:33:58.560 --> 01:34:00.880
she's present, you girl.

1705
01:34:02.199 --> 01:34:02.800
Well listen.

1706
01:34:02.920 --> 01:34:05.760
I just want to let you know that this book

1707
01:34:06.039 --> 01:34:08.199
is something that I truly look forward to reading. I'm

1708
01:34:08.239 --> 01:34:11.239
gonna read every single word of it, and it better

1709
01:34:11.279 --> 01:34:14.079
be signed, because I expect that from the author in you,

1710
01:34:14.960 --> 01:34:18.319
And as soon as it's available, please give me the information.

1711
01:34:18.399 --> 01:34:21.159
I know that all my listeners would love to read it.

1712
01:34:21.560 --> 01:34:25.880
And I just appreciate all of your time that you've

1713
01:34:25.920 --> 01:34:27.600
taken today. I know it's been a while, but to

1714
01:34:27.640 --> 01:34:29.960
explain everything to me and to be my friend and

1715
01:34:30.000 --> 01:34:34.079
to let us know everything about Granza, and if anything

1716
01:34:34.119 --> 01:34:36.760
comes up in the future that has to do with

1717
01:34:36.800 --> 01:34:39.760
anything that might affect this case, let me know because

1718
01:34:39.760 --> 01:34:40.199
I'd love.

1719
01:34:40.119 --> 01:34:42.159
To call you. Get a call, don't you worry?

1720
01:34:42.319 --> 01:34:42.760
Awesome?

1721
01:34:43.159 --> 01:34:45.520
Well, thank you so much from the bottom of my heart,

1722
01:34:45.880 --> 01:34:49.039
and please share my love with your wife and your

1723
01:34:49.199 --> 01:34:51.119
mother and everyone else and let them know that I

1724
01:34:51.239 --> 01:34:54.840
just appreciate everything that they've opened up and given me

1725
01:34:54.880 --> 01:34:56.279
a look into their lives, your lives.

1726
01:34:56.399 --> 01:34:58.479
Thank you so much. Can I do a little plug?

1727
01:34:58.720 --> 01:34:59.079
Sure?

1728
01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:04.159
Hellow me at Sarah Rice's Underscore author on Instagram and

1729
01:35:04.720 --> 01:35:06.760
you'll get more details about the book and when that

1730
01:35:06.840 --> 01:35:07.560
kind of when.

1731
01:35:07.399 --> 01:35:09.920
It's all coming out, I'm gonna follow you too, Okay,

1732
01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:12.079
I'll do all right. Well, hey guys, thank y'all so

1733
01:35:12.159 --> 01:35:14.520
much for listening. I'm gonna have more episodes coming up.

1734
01:35:15.119 --> 01:35:18.720
As always, it's gonna be victims first, remember that. And

1735
01:35:18.800 --> 01:35:22.439
I hope that this episode has impacted your life the

1736
01:35:22.439 --> 01:35:24.560
way that it has mine, and that you'll think further

1737
01:35:24.920 --> 01:35:27.399
whenever you go to vote and you go to support

1738
01:35:27.439 --> 01:35:30.960
any type of changes that may be made in your area,

1739
01:35:31.000 --> 01:35:33.319
in your neck of the woods in terms of true crime.

1740
01:35:33.319 --> 01:35:35.600
But until next time, I am Kelly Jennings and this

1741
01:35:35.680 --> 01:35:36.960
has been unspeakable.

1742
01:35:37.359 --> 01:35:49.640
Thank you, Kelly,