Part 4 | Bullet in the Brain: The Shocking Ryan Waller Case

0:06 Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell stories of real crimes with real victims, whose cases are so shocking that many are left wondering how is this even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections, and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator, dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so evil many feel they are unspeakable.

0:50 Warning. Unspeakable as intended for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey, y'all, kJ you're back with the final portion of this Ryan Waller series. I know some of y'all been emailing me, Kelly, why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you tell me? It was multiple parts, y'all. I didn't know. I did not know. Honestly thought I was gonna jump in this series and it was gonna be one episode and I would tell you everything. But the more I dug, the more I researched, the more records requests I did, the more I was realizing. And so it's a testament. I would say to the fact that I want to get it right, and I want to give you everything that I possibly can so apologies, apologies that I didn't know how many parts it would be. I would tell you if I had known, and I'm not pre recorded that much in advance to be able to tell you. So that's the truth. And I hope that what I give you today wraps it all up in a pretty bow and you leave this series being more educated on the topic of the case than otherwise you would have you would have been, so all right, know that this is the final one in this series.

1:52 It will not go after this one, and this is going to still be a gem packed episode with I bet you didn't no information. Okay, I'm not stalling you. I just this is crazy. You may not care about this, but I don't want you to know. It's not a script. I mean, it's my notes on everything that I've been taken. Do you know that this is twenty three pages typed twelve point font That's how much information I'm giving you today in this episode. So let's get ready. Now where we left off last episode, Richie was convicted and he was sent off to prison for the rest of his life, and now is where I want to inform you on what his behavior behind bars looked like, because it really does seem to mimic his behavior before incarceration. So I looked up his record and I found that he still likes drugs, he still likes fighting, and he still likes not listening. What do you know, You know, people don't change their colors just because they get caught. You know, everything that he claims he didn't do, he's continuing to do while he's behind bars. So this record is going from two thousand and three all the way through twenty twenty four, and these are the infractions. He was written up for disobeying orders, threatening or intimidating others, possession or manufacture of intoxicating substance. Then he got another possession or manufacture of intoxicating substances, fighting one, fighting two, fighting three, promoting prison contraband, and possession of drugs or narcotics. Okay, on every one of these cases, they're not really cases.

3:24 When people are behind bars and they get written up, they still have to go before a board. When I did this, you know, it was the disciplinary board was me. I was classification in prison, and then there would be a ranking officer, like a higher than a lieutenant usually, but anyway we come together. We would read the report, they would get to come in and defend themselves or try to explain what happened, and then there would be an outcome, and then there would be punishment. On every one of these instances that Richie was disciplined for, he was found guilty. So some of them said uphold, So I don't know necessarily if that meant. I don't know if that necessarily meant that he had already gotten in trouble for something and then they were just doing a hearing for it. But either way, none of them was he found not guilty. So he's doing the same behavior behind bars that he was doing outside in the free world.

4:16 And I just it matters, guys. People don't People don't change. Okay, people may update, they may better themselves, or they may worsen themselves over time, but like the foundation of an adult doesn't seem to change. And this is over twenty four or twenty three, twenty one years that he's been in and out of the prison system for various things until he was finally put in for this, for these this murder and this attempted murder. But all of these mimic how he acted on the outside. That said Richie's sitting tight in prison. But Old Dad's case, remember, it was dismissed after it fell apart due to his wife, Cheryl refusing to cooperate and testify to what she had told police. When she was compelled, however, to take the stand, they said, no, you're gonna come and you're gonna take the stand, and you're gonna tell us what you told police.

5:08 She testified in court that she didn't remember telling police anything. She didn't remember any of it. Well, guess what that was. Okay, that's fine. Cheryl, because they could just play the recording, right, the police recorded this conversation. They're not dumb. So there it is. There, it is in coming out of her own mouth what exactly she had said to police. So whenever that is brought up, Cheryl then says, well, I lied. None of it's true. I lied. I lied because I wanted to see Larry go to prison so I could get rid of him. That is how Cheryl spun that. So which one's true, Cheryl?

5:48 Which one is it? At this point? Is it any of them? Is it both of them? What's going on? Because even her best friend, if you remember in the last episode, her best friend was there when this conversation took place. Her name was Brenda. She was there for the conversation. And we know this because Brenda also spoke in that recording. Okay, so we know she's there. It's not it's not up for debate or question. But yet Cheryl can't remember it. You can't remember what happened because Brenda, her friend, remembered it just fine, as did the police who recorded the statements. Okay, So the courts found it obvious that Cheryl was lying, and so what they did is, since Cheryl wants to lie and not tell the truth, they ruled that Brenda could also be brought in to testify to the conversation because she was there. It was a good it was a good decision on behalf of the courts. So what do you think is more likely? And I want to pose this question to you because as a listener, okay, I feel like you have an obligation to think. Don't just take what I say for you know, just one hundred percent fact.

6:54 I mean, you're you're a human being. Think, Okay, tell me what you think. I want to pose this question, what do you think is more likely? A woman who was battered and abused by both her son and her husband was afraid of them, so she conveniently quote unquote forgot everything that was said. Or do you think that she was just a liar who made up everything, even though what she allegedly made up aligned perfectly, not only with the evidence at the scene, including the caliber of weapon that was used, that there were two people, that the wounds matched, the story, and everyone else's timelines that were interviewed about this matched with what she said, but she lied. You need to make that decision. Do you think that it's a battered woman who was abused who's changing her story because her husband was cut loose okay and is out free and made do something to her, Or she just lied even though it happens to just conveniently line up with what everyone else is saying that was there or or had some kind of role in the story. You decide. I don't want to tell you what to think, but I've even heard based on those two questions, I have heard multiple moronic people state in other shows about this case that it's the police who must have convinced her to change her timeline her being Cheryl, it was the police that must have convinced Cheryl to change her timeline to fit their account of things. I'm

8:26 gonna address this more in depth later, but like, what what is going on? What is going on with people who are covering these stories or saying they're covering these stories that we've now jumped at this conclusion the police must have influenced Cheryl to change her timeline and then lie on the stand. Is is that really what we're doing. I'll challenge you, go listen to other people tell this story. Please, I'm begging you. I'm not going to tell you where to go. I want you to go figure it out. Go listen to it. Tell me if what I have told you so far aligns in any way with in terms of detail and giving you the whole perspective here. See if it aligns. Listen to their outcomes in their cases, and it shouldn't leave you scratching your head. Maybe not, but it did me. Those same people that are telling this story and claiming to agree that the police must have somehow affected this timeline for their own gain, okay, seem to not know that Brenda was there. Brenda was there.

9:28 They never bring her up. Cheryl went to Brenda before the police with what happened, so be so for real people like, damn you think that that Brenda's in on it too, now that there's a whole ass conspiracy that some woman is also now in on it and pre determined that they would fake timeline, Like think this through, really think this three. The thing is this, even with Brenda now coming forward or being told to come forward in to testify, even though she testified to the truth of what really went down, the prosecution was in a bind with Cheryl because they couldn't force her to testify correctly.

10:13 They couldn't force her. I mean, what are they gonna do. She wants to lie, She's gonna lie on the stand. But she had a protection that they couldn't charge her, you know, with with lying to the courts or anything like that. And this was due to the spousal immunity laws that were in place. So if you I don't want to make this a law you know, a law episode here. But the fact is this, Cheryl could legally refuse to speak on Larry or to testify about what was going on, and there is nothing they could do about it because she was legally his spouse. Now I'm not giving legal advice here. I'm not an attorney, so I can't do that anyway. But this is just a quick general explanation about spousal immunity laws. Okay, And sometimes you'll hear people refer to this as spousal privilege, but basically it is a protection of married couples from being forced to testify against one another in court with regard to conversations that were held in private.

11:19 All right, so you're like, well, what, well think about it. I mean, haven't you had private conversations with your spouse if you're married, or even if you're in a relationship, that that's y'all's private life, that you're talking about things together. And if you still loved your spouse and they're like, nope, you have to get up here and talk about these conversations, it would put that it would put that spouse in a really bad position, because even if you're even if you're a loved one, or your or your spouse didn't do anything wrong, you being compelled to get up there and truthfully have to talk about conversations that might even shed them in a bad light. That could mess up your marriage, you know, to some extent. But here's the key. It's not that simple, okay, because the rules vary by jurisdiction.

12:04 But what exactly is protected? Okay, So just to give you a little bit more information, if you're married, you might want to know this, okay, the witness spouse, so not the person on the stand, okay, the or not the person that's. Being charged with something. The witness spouse is protected, meaning they can voluntarily testify if they choose to, but they cannot be forced under this law. And overall, this protection ends if the couple divorces, though it covers events that occurred during the marriage. So if you were married and you don't have to testify or say anything about those private conversations, but once y'all divorce, any conversations after that, you're not protected by this law.

12:49 But there are some obvious exceptions to the law, like crimes against the spouse, or if there were crimes against a child, or if both spouse says commit the same crime together, that doesn't count here, Okay, it's in these specific circumstances that I just mentioned before. Well, there was a family out there who took great offense to this spousal privileged privileged law, mainly because it was seemingly the very reason that their child's killer was walking free with no accountability. And who do you think that family was think?

13:31 Because that family was a very low publicity family, but they were very much determined that they were going to have to fight this, and that family was the family of Heather Kwan. Remember, Ryan's not the only victim here. Heather is dead, gone, never to speak again. So when they hear this information about Cheryl, they're like, what do you mean? Larry Carver told his wife exactly what he did, which basically led the investigation to be solved. But because his wife is refusing now to admit to what she already said on tape recorded verified by a friend, he now gets to walk free. How is that fair? The law is working against the victim in this case. The law was not intended for this reason, and thus Heather Kwan's family immediately got to work with their local legislators to remedy this. So generally it's now referred to as Heather's Law. Okay, but wording was added to this law to adjust the spousal immunity law because of the hard work and dedication of the Quan family. In conjunction with their legislators. So basically the spousal immunity law stayed the same, except for one major addition, which now adds that a spouse cannot be compelled to testify against the other on less Okay, and this is where the big change came in.

15:03 And this is the exact wording. I copied and pasted it so I could read it to you unless a spouse makes a voluntary statement to a law enforcement officer during an investigation of the offense or offenses about the events that gave rise to the prosecution, or about any statements made to the spouse by the other spouse about those events. So, in essence, this change that they fought for removed someone someone's ability to do exactly what Cheryl was doing. It's my personal opinion that Cheryl was acting this way out of fear. I don't think this was about protecting Larry. I think this was about protecting herself. Obviously, I don't know these people personally, and I wasn't at the trial, but my spidey senses feel that that was the case. Okay, but of course there's always more to it.

15:57 This is a direct quote from Brent Duh when she was interviewed about Cheryl a year prior to ever being compelled to testify. Okay, a year before she was ever told you're gonna have to testify. This is what she said when asked if Cheryl had expressed to Brenda that she was scared about telling police. What she knew. This is a direct quote from that interview. Quote. Sure, the day that she actually told me about it. That was the whole thing, was that Larry would what Larry would do to her and what connections he had and to the people that would hurt her. And that's why she, you know, hit at my house until he was arrested, and then she was just she left town because she was afraid of what was going to happen to her. So the conversation then, uh continues forward and again I'm directly quoting miss Brenda here she says, well, she changed her mind a few times.

16:56 And this is talking. About in in relation to the fact that after Cheryl told the police initially everything that Larry had said to her, they were asking Brenda, what did Brenda say to you that she would she would do in the future. You know, she was called to have to talk about this or whatever. So here's her quoted response to that question. Well, she changed her mind a few times. First, she just knew it was the right thing to do to tell that Larry and Richie had been involved in a killing. Then she kind of she just she took off and moved up to Wyoming or my Montana, no Wyoming, and into that she was just gonna wash her hands of all of this and walk away from it, which I felt, again, you know, is leaving me deep, deep in shit. She brought to my house and uh then she even you know, her anti law, anti authority part kicked in and started doing the you know, so they can't force me to testify.

18:02 And again she was just gonna wash her hands of it. And then now she's come back with the idea that she can well, Richie's young enough and he can still be saved. And I still don't think that she's sure she's going to testify against Larry. End quote. So what you're seeing here in this follow up interview with Brenda is that Cheryl was now having to rethink doing the right thing and telling the police what happened because she's. Afraid of Larry. She's very afraid of Larry, and I wanted to give you these parts of these interviews because it'll give you more insight to what Cheryl was all about, flip flopping back and forth. She also thought, I guess as a mother that she could save Richie, and that's why she lied on the stand. The more you know, the more you understand how all of this played out. But it takes a lot of research and time to look at all of this. So with Heather Kwan's family like a steady machine behind the proposed law changes, Heather's Law officially went into effect and was signed by the governor on July thirteenth, two thousand and nine, which was just about a year after Richie was convicted. But guess what, the police and prosecutors weren't done yet, no freaking way. They knew that Larry needed to be held accountable for what he had done with his son Richie. To Heather as well as to Ryan, it's not right that he is

19:32 walking free. So with this new law change, at the expense of the Kwan's, you know, they had to lose their daughter for this to become a reality in terms of the law. The police now wanted to charge Larry again, but this would become another huge legal battle. Could The main question here was could the new law be applied retroactively against Larry Carver. A lot of people don't think about that. I'm gonna save you all the court drama though, because this was a very slow and tedious process, But I'm gonna let you know that the courts would rule in favor of the state on this one. And because of that, Larry Carver was indicted on November of twenty eleven.

20:15 Now his charges were first degree murder, attempted first degree murder, burglary, and aggravated assault. But now police had to go again and hunt Larry down well. In the meantime, Cheryl's friend Brenda was now scared for her life, telling people, look, I may have to move. I'm now gonna have to move. I mean you heard her say, I'm knee deep in this shit, and then Cheryl moved. Now I'm square in the middle of it, just because I was friends with Cheryl. So she was terrified thinking she might have to get out of Helm now investigators in the meantime, they had also tracked down a friend of Larry's, and this guy's name was Pete. Pete was believed to have discussed the murder or an attempted murder with Larry. But this was after it happened, Okay, not like he knew ahead of time, after it happened. I'm not sure exactly the details around these two guys talking, but they followed a lead that.

21:13 This had happened. So when investigators confronted Pete about this and wanted to ask him questions, Pete immediately shut down and became defensive just from the jump. The police said, look, we really need you to help us out here and give us this information, and you may be called to testify to this conversation, so it's important that you talk to us. And his response to the police was well, then you can lose my number and he hung up the phone. So it looks to me like Pete was scared too. He didn't want anything to do with it. So regardless of the witness's refusals to cooperate, police still went to go get Larry. It was November fourteenth of twenty eleven, just days after the courts ruled and he was reindicted, So they were going to take no time. They were going to waste no time rather getting him off of the streets, but it would take them an additional five days to locate him, and once they got good intel on where they thought he was, they set up to surveil him at his apartment complex. They would sit and they would wait for two days, just watching. But Larry was never seen, He never came out, he never went in. Nothing.

22:40 Two days of just watching nothing. But on the nineteenth an officer saw him and alerted the team, who all responded very much under the radar to go get him. Their goal here was that this had to be much better planned than beforehand, So to get him out of his element was the goal, but to not raise suspicion. So Larry was contacted with a ruse. He was told that his vehicle had been involved in a collision basically out in the apartment complex parking lot. So whether Larry knew that he was re indicted or not, I'm just going to tell you, I'm not certain at this point.

23:24 But police didn't necessarily think that he knew. But also if he did, he would know that he was cooked and he may want to start a shootout or something like that, because this is a very very dangerous guy, right, So this extreme caution was further confirmed necessary too, because police had spoken to the apartment leasing agent and that agent had told them, look, I saw Larry and he has a gun on him. So this is not a joke. Going to take this guy in custody. So minimizing risk starts with removing a suspect from their comfort zone, which would have been his apartment. They don't want to go in there. They'd rather pull him out. So that's why he was told, look, there was this collision and we need you to come outside. It wasn't the police that did this. I think it was the apartment leasing agent that police told, I need you to call him and say that his car is involved in an incident.

24:13 Okay, so. You know he's told, hey, your car's been hit by somebody while it was parked. It was about three point fifty in the afternoon when lo and behold, here comes Larry Carver and he begins walking out of the gate of the complex towards his vehicle. Well, there was a police team in a van nearby, and they quickly approached right pull up behind him, and as they slide open that door, they threw out an already primed flash bang which exploded and it gave police the jump on grabbing the unsuspecting Larry, but in the smoke, Larry's response wasn't clearly seen. It was a lot of smoke. Did he grab his gun? Did he not? Well, guys, never fear.

24:57 Because Rocky was here, four legged police companion who came bolting out of that van and jumped on Larry, biting his leg like only the goodest of boys would do, and holding Larry before he could get away. It was a good call on Rocky's part too, because Larry was pissed when he realized what was up. But police were able to secure Larry, get him on his stomach, and once they were able to get his hands. Rocky let go. Who's a good boy, y'all? Rocky's a good boy. Larry was then transported to the hospital and treated for this bite wound before he was brought to jail and booked in. But now it was time to talk. What would Larry have to say about all of this? Because Larry would have to be interviewed again in jail. But I need you to recognize that it had been nearly five years now since his last interview with police. A lot of time had passed. I mean, hell, we had time to pass a law so that he could even be arrested. Now, I want you to know I did read the entire interview transcript or read every word of it, but I'm gonna summarize it for you because you don't need to be read to. But from the jump, Larry maintained that he had nothing to do with the shootings.

26:12 But he did say some things that I, as a person trying to learn about this case, couldn't help but pick up one. First of all, he now says that Cheryl and he had not been speaking when the shootings occurred because she had cheated on him. His point was that she was obviously lying whenever she was trying to and trying to set him up whenever she called the police because they weren't getting along. There was an issue with this that I took. Later on in the interview, he mentioned, yeah, well I took Cheryl's PT Cruiser to California to visit my mom. Y'all know that whole bit, because I've already covered that. So the question in my mind became, wait a minute, why would a woman who hates you so much be willing to lie on you about a murder. That's how angry she is. Why would she then allow you to take her car on a vacation without her? Also, if that's even the case, why did you return two days later and have Christmas brunch together with her? That's how much she hates you that y'all then go to Christmas, she gives you her car and loans it, and then y'all go to lunch two days later. I guess he kind of forgot those facts over the last five years, but there it wasn't black and white. While I'm reading this, he also said this.

27:31 He said he and Richie never spoke about the shootings together. Never. Never, Okay, And I want you to hear me when I say they never spoke about it. But this is the thing. Law enforcement keeps records, okay, and I can read. And this includes the fact that what if I told you Larry and Richie were housed together for three full months literally in the same pod before trial. So do you think that they never spoke about it? Do you think that they're both in prison for the same shit and they never spoke about it. No, we didn't talk about that.

28:12 We talked about everything else. But the reason we're here do you think that their stories now a line and neither of them were there the day of the shooting. You think that all of that happened and they never spoke about it, but all of a sudden, now they kind of have the same story. That's what we're gonna believe. Okay, all right, great, Well, he originally said, he being Larry, that he went to get their stuff after Richie was. Kicked out, including the iguana. You already know that, right, But I've already told you the iguana was already dead. We already know this. But now five years later, he says in that interview, come on, man, that's bullshit. The iguana wasn't dead. Iguanas love water and they don't drown. Well, I happen to be an animal lover. I'm sure that I have listeners out there that have iguanas. But if you don't want, I want to just notate something to you. Something I know about iguanas is that they have to be in water that is, on average eighty three degrees plus to quote unquote thrive. Okay, they need that water to be warm.

29:22 Let's just assess what Larry is saying. The shootings took place in December. Remember it was in the end of December when all of this happened, So I looked it up. I was just curious about the weather where this happened. The high, the average high sixty five degrees to sixty seven degrees, the average low forty four to forty five degrees. So matter of fact, the record high was set in nineteen twenty six and that was eighty three degrees. Okay, So my point to this is that that iguana absolutely would not have thrived in a pool, especially if water levels were low. He couldn't get out and he was swimming around in freezing cold water. Okay, that's just logic.

30:09 So nevertheless, they need access to air. Okay. Iguanas have to have access to air because if they are prolonged in submersion, they are prone to drowning, especially in cold temperatures. Another thing Larry was adamant adamant in this interview that Richie would have never hurt a girl. Never, My son would never do that. Everyone knows that too, he said. Everyone knows that you don't go around hitting and hurting girls. You defend them, except at this point, I guess and their own domestic Violet situations that have been documented in the past, those must not count, I guess, because when Richie almost broke his own mom's arm, did that not count?

31:02 When Richie beat up his own sisters, did that not count? Are you sure that Richie just knows you don't beat up on girls and that you don't hurt women, because that kind of seems to uh contradict that. So as I'm sure you can guess at this point, Larry would eventually go to trial again for everything that took place. But this is where my podcast is about to go into a direct contradiction to everything I have ever read or ever heard about this case, Okay, And this is where shit's about to get deep. So if you prefer feelings over the facts, I'm just warning you right now, your feelings are going to get hurt. Okay. So if that is not something that you can deal with, And if you like the story the way it's been shared in multiple uh you know, stories and and news headlines and everything over the last twenty years, then now's the time to cut it off. Cut the show off. If you want to believe everything that's been said, please cut it off and just live.

32:09 In that fantasy world. That's fine, okay, because I still have tons to go here. So when the trial date was set for December the tenth, obviously key witnesses would need to be called to testify, and this would include Ryan. Now, everything I knew, or I thought that I knew up to this point, was that Ryan's life was directly altered as a result of his brain injury. His dad had even said that he was dependent on people for the rest of his life and he required lots of care. I always, I guess, assumed that to be and I'll be honest, I honestly, honestly assumed that to mean that he was very simple after his brain injury, that he almost, I don't want to say, reverted to a childlike state, but he was not on the same cognitive level that he used to be, and if he needed care for the rest of his life, then that kind of is why I thought that. Well, I was going through the paperwork and there was an interview that took place with Ryan after he had recovered all these years later, and they were going to tell him, you're gonna have to testify in this case, and we want to.

33:28 Get you prepared to do that. But what caught My attention on the interview was the location where this interview took place, because it said that the interview with Ryan was held at the Arizona Department of Corrections, specifically the Lewis Prison Complex. So I'm like, why would they bring Ryan to a prison complex to interview him? That's weird. But that's when I. Realized that I had been sold a few lies by the media in the past years. See, if Ryan was totally dependent and in need of care by an adult after the shooting, then why did I find out at this juncture that he was actually in prison. He wasn't brought there to be interviewed, he was being housed there.

34:22 He was in prison. And this genuinely surprised me. I'm serious, a genuine I was like what, So, of course I needed to dig into this and figure out why the hell is Ryan in prison? Poor things been shot in the head. Well, that's when I realized that Ryan had gotten into legal trouble multiple times after he recuperated from being shot. Now, to be clear, before I go forward, please hear my heart when I tell you Ryan was a complete and total victim when he was shot. Complete victim. Okay, nobody deserves that. Hands down, He did not deserve that. Heather didn't deserve to die either, and they both deserve justice for what happened to them. I will never waver on that statement. Ryan and Heather deserve justice for what happened to them. However, two things can be correct at the same time. Right now, I don't have all of the records, as it's kind of irrelevant to this specific case I'm covering, but it does matter, okay, in terms of social understanding of what all went on after the aftermath of the initial shooting case. My heart ached for Ryan's dad as he explained how much Ryan's life was altered by this shooting.

35:51 I didn't know about Ryan being a drug dealer beforehand, but I learned that as I researched the case, and in total honesty, I will tell you that it did change my perspective a bit on what all was going on in Ryan's home that led up to the shooting. What I mean here is in terms of danger level of lifestyle, not whether Ryan deserved it or not. And I want to be very clear in what I'm saying right now, Okay, It's just that it made it a little bit different than what I thought I knew about this case. But whatever, Okay, even if he was selling drugs, he didn't deserve to be shot. But when I found out that Ryan was in prison, it made my wheel start turning. How did someone completely dependent on family after this shooting end up in prison? Saying he was a dependent would imply brain injury that would remove the ability to form intent in wrongdoing, wouldn't it. I mean, that's that's how I thought of it. Like maybe he took something from a store not realizing that he needed to pay right because of the injury, he didn't He didn't mean to be a thing, you know, as an example, he just didn't know. Because of the brain injury, it affected his way of thinking. It takes the intent out of it.

37:08 Well, no, that's not. What exactly is going on here. So I researched more, and I did pull more records, and to start, Ryan had an assault charge placed on him in March of two thousand and nine, and then in November of that same year, of two thousand and six. He really fucked up. So according to that report, the reason he was in prison was for armed robbery. Not only that he had been sentenced to five years in prison for it, and that's why detectives had to go to the prison to talk to him about testifying at Larry's trial. Either way, okay.

37:58 When they went to prepare him for what was to come, Ryan had different plans in terms of his participation in the trial against the man that he said had come in and been a part of him being shot in the face and murdering Heather. Ryan told detectives he was now no longer willing to testify in the trial against Larry. His reasoning was that he had been threatened that he would be killed if he did this. He said that he saw this first hand when another inmate in the same prison yard had just testified at trial recently, and whenever people found out inmates found out that he had testified, he was severely beaten and even had his head crushed in with a large block of ice, and as far as Ryan knew, he said the guy had died. Ryan, using logic, said, look, I only have about a year and a half left on my sentence for this armed robbery, and because of that, I don't want to say anything why I'm still locked up now. After that, when I get released, I'll testify but I will not testify before he was so convinced that he was going to be killed if he was called to take the stand, he said, and if you make me, he said, I will flat out lie. So he got word. Ryan's whole thing was that he got word that Richie had sent word to his padnas on Ryan's yard to do what's called KOs him. Now,

39:28 I'll just let you know if you don't know, but KOs means kill on site. So Ryan believed that Richie had KOs him, basically telling people to kill him on site if they saw him. And that's why he's done. He's not even gonna say a word. Ryan then ended the interview with the investigators with the fact that he would lie and he would say Larry wasn't even there if he was called to the stand. So fun facts because I even looked more into that the beating of that other inmate actually did happen. Ryan was telling the truth there. It did happen, but his understanding of what happened was completely wrong because it was over drug dealings in the prison and that dude was thought to be a snitch over these drug dealings. But regardless, Ryan believed it, and he believed that he would be killed, and so he was now of no use to the prosecution in his own case. So Ryan doesn't want to testify, Cheryl won't testify, Pete won't testify. But even facing these issues, detectives pressed forward with their case and Larry went on trial. Now, even in his interview after his second arrest, showed holes in his continued claims of innocence. So Ryan said it was both Larry and Ritchie who attacked him. Cheryl, independent of Ryan never having spoken to him, says it was both of them too, And in the follow up interview, Larry says, look, my car was there, so when I went back to collect things, you know, that's what we

41:02 were going to get. We're all of these things. But guys, that couldn't be truthful, as you know, because the car had already been towed. It wasn't even on site. So Larry said that they went through the back when they went to go do this of the house, not the front, which is in direct contradiction to what Eric had said had happened. So when he was confronted with the fact that Eric told police what happened and that he had come through the front door, he admitted, Okay, yeah, Eric was there, but we came through the back. Okay, we didn't come. Through the front. But what Larry was obviously trying to do was combine two separate incidences, even though the timeline was clearly different.

41:43 He was trying to combine two incidences so that it wasn't possible that he was there on the twenty third. That's what's going on here, so this interview. Again, he also claimed that he hadn't spoken to Cheryl in eight months when everything went down because she had been cheating on him. They were mad at each other. But again, dude, she lets you take the car. That doesn't make any sense. The lies were falling apart amongst the fact that there was all this physical evidence too at the scene. But then Larry was advised of something that he hadn't accounted for, and that's whenever it was brought to his attention. Hey, Bud, we know that you were housed with your son for three months before the initial trial. We know that you had plenty of time to align your stories, including the iguana fiasco and all of this bullshit that you're trying to sell us. So when Larry was advised and realized that they knew that they were housed together. Larry continues to maintain they never discussed it, It never came up, and they just never ever addressed it. Whatever.

42:45 Larry. Well, after ten days of testimony and two days of deliberation, Larry Carver was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison for the shooting of Ryan and the murder of Heather Kwan. Finally, this ongoing had seemingly been closed and justice finally served. But not so fast, y'all, because in all of the years that passed since this case initially took place, there had been a shift, and I mean in terms of society, because society in all of these years had now turned on police with regard to this case.

43:27 Rather than it be one that, you know, a case that was solved in the face of overwhelming odds and including miracles of survival that also went against all odds. The narrative began to shift. It wasn't how horrible it was that Richie and Larry had murdered Heather and shot Ryan in the face. No, it had evolved because now the story had shifted into attacking the police. Because now there was an outcry that police didn't immediately recognize that Ryan had been shot when he was running away out of the back door from the scene the day that they made contact at the house. The outcry now included that Ryan was looked at as a suspect and he was interrogated for hours and hours with an obvious bullet hole in his face. The narrative became that the police were so inept and so stupid that all of Ryan's brain damage was clearly as a result of the police's fault and of their delay of care to him. I would like to place a challenge to you as my listeners right now, I really would. I want to ask you right now because we still have a ton to go over in this in this episode, but I want to challenge you to pause me, to pause my show right now. I want you to go see for yourself what is the title on damn near every story and

45:01 show that has covered this. And I'm very serious right now, I want you to do it yourself, pause my show and go look. Don't just believe me, try it for yourself, because if you do, you will see that everything you research misses everything that is relative to this case. Big facts are flat out ignored. Or planal incorrect, small things from you know, like this happened in an apartment, which it did not, it happened in a house, all the way to big things like Ryan was interrogated for multiple hours with a bullet hole in his head. Some reports, depending on what shows or things you read, will say anything from Ryan was interviewed anywhere from two hours till eleven hours, and some claims okay, well, Ryan would actually pass away a few years later, okay, after he was released from prison. Even the circumstances surrounding Ryan's cause of death are flat out incorrect online and even interviews that I watched that were given by family are not correct.

46:22 So it had to be intrigued, it did. I'm not gonna lie, and I'm gonna take the time to explain multiple things in this case that should matter as to why and what happened, and I will go in chronological order of the events so that we can all be on the same page. You have to look at this, though, as if you know nothing about the case for it to make sense. So let's start with the bullet hole in Ryan's face. Okay, I've posted the photos on Patreon and on Facebook. Of course, if you know that he has been if you know that, because I've told you that, it's obvious what you're looking at, it is obvious. But if you didn't know, if you just happened upon the home like police did for a welfare check, it isn't obvious that he was shot. Now right now, some people are clutching their pearls. What do you mean, look at the whole it's because you know. I took the photo okay, the photos of Ryan. I took those and I showed them to people I know, which include with no preface.

47:35 I just said, look at these photos, emergency room doctor friends as well as police officers. Okay, I just showed it to them. I asked them, do you know who this is? They all said no. And my next question was, what do you think happened to him? And not one person, not one, not emergency room doctors and not police officers, not one of them said oh, he's been shot. Not one of them. They all said something to the effect of he looks like he's been in a fight, or he was hit with something, maybe he fell. Also, one even explained to me that the bruising would imply that it was over a day old because of the coloring, because it had shifted in color. This was the medical person that it had shifted in color, and so it looks like it wasn't fresh. What had happened?

48:34 Now? I want to post some questions to you, but remember you can't use the results of an investigation to criticize the process which leads you to those very results. That's not fair. You can't do that. So I want to ask you this Number one. If it was so obvious that Ryan had been shot in the face, and the police should have known this within seconds of laying their eyes on him, how the hell did Ryan's own roommate not know that he had been shot. He opened the door for her, she spoke to him, she brought him medicine, She even asked him about his injuries. She cleaned up the house, she wiped up blood and vomit, and she never thought that he needed nine to one one and she certainly never thought that he had been shot.

49:24 And she spent hours with him after she got home. How the hell did nearly ten other police officers not know immediately that he had been shot in the face during this initial contact. Again, I want to reiterate to you, Ryan never mentioned to anyone that he had been shot until he was actually in the interrogation room, but back at the scene before that, no one on scene ever mentioned that they thought that he looked like he may have been shot. He was walking, he was talking and doing all of the things that people do, okay, admittedly confused, but still doing them. So to that point, why would anyone make that leap And at that very early juncture when they said get on the ground and the investigation go, I bet he's been shot. Seriously, I want you to think about that. I have seen injuries personally far more superior to what Ryan Wallers were. Now, they were bad, don't get me wrong, But in terms of damage, I have seen wounds in real life far more grave looking than the ones that he sustained. And I've never once jumped to the conclusion I bet that person was shot, because it just isn't something that would have jumped in my mind.

50:48 He had a black eye, his eye was. Swollen, it was still in his head, though, I just wouldn't have jumped to that. How did CSI not notice people on the scene who photof this shit all the time, they didn't notice. How did people at the police station, the processing folks, how did they not scream in horror, Oh my god, you've brought someone shot in here. You really have to ask yourself these questions, because a lot of people had contact with Ryan, and the answer is simple, no one knew what had happened at that point. They had to ask the questions first. That's why Ryan was there to be asked the questions. He was walking, he was talking, and he was there. They had to talk to him. Anyone could watch the Super Bowl and then afterwards say, oh man, all these things were done wrong.

51:38 And of course if the coaches knew the outcome before it even started, they would change some things. Of course they would. That's common sense. Hindsight is twenty twenty. And I have read all three hundred and eighty six pages of investigation in this case, as well as watched the interrogation, and I've looked at dispatches, and Detective Dalton, who interviewed Ryan in the infamous viral video, has taken tons of heat from everyone because of his supposed ineptness. And I just need you to know I'm gonna take the time to tell you I logged the timestamps on all of the documents and the videos and the dispatches, and these are the facts, okay, in black and white. The initial call for the welfare check was at twelve forty eight am.

52:29 A street cop responded to that. Detective Dalton and his team were called to respond well after Ryan was already taken into custody. It was assigned to Detective Dalton officially at three point thirty am at the literal crime scene. Never was Detective Dalton briefed that Ryan was shot, because nobody knew that, and Ryan didn't say in any report by anybody that he had been shot. I went through multiple people's reports. Ryan was already at the police station being photographed and processed for questioning, while detectives were gathering the basic information of what is going on here, like just the nuts and bolts of what is going on here?

53:22 Mind you, This is where experience matters. Okay, And explaining this case properly and in totality I believe requires some experience, because I truly want you to understand this about policing. When someone is injured on a scene, fire is called to first respond as medical. The fire department came and went just like it they were supposed to before Detective Dalton was even ever on the scene. They were gone before he even arrived on the scene. This is documented in the reports and the dispatches. You cannot go in and alter this information. Everything is time stamped for a reason. If you believe that that can happen, you don't understand anything about time stampage in dispatch logs.

54:20 So when fire arrived, they said they couldn't help Heather, and then they radioed back to dispatch that they were done at the scene and they left. What I personally believe happened again, this is my opinion founded in experience, is that Ryan had been handcuffed and placed in a police car by the officers that were in the back of the house. Officers that were inside of the house were talking with the firefighters about Heather. Ryan was trying to run away while Heather was dead on the couch. It's different sets of officers. So when fire declared that they were of no use to Heather because she was beyond help, Ryan was likely not even on their radar as needing immediate medical attention.

55:06 Because different officers were handling different points of the incident, which was still live and fluid. Okay, that means the officers in the back of the house placed him in the police car. That's where this breakdown of communication, if anything, should not have happened. Okay, that's where I think it is. However it did. Okay, So fire left the scene not checking Ryan. I don't know if they did or they didn't. I don't have anything that says they did, so I'm gonna just err on the side they didn't. Okay, I don't think they did. But I think it's because of that breakdown in communication in a fluid scene with tons of officers working it. Okay, they checked on the victim in the house, found her dead, Fire radioed in she's doa and they rolled out because Ryan was in the police car and they didn't know.

55:58 That's what I think when on here, and it makes sense to me there was a breakdown in communication. Should that have happened, Absolutely not. That's the core of where I think the mistake happened. But it did for reasons that if you lay it out, make sense. Should it have? No? Did it? Yes? Does it make sense as to why? Yes? Also, all of that happened before Detective Dalton even arrived on scene, So once he had a working knowledge of the scene, a basic one and circumstances to that point. That's when he immediately got in his car, changed his attention to Ryan and Alisha, who are at the police station, and he drove over there. Detective Dalton drove to the station and then he interviewed Alicia starting at four to twenty five am. He then wanted to interview Ryan. These interviews cannot happen at the same time in an investigation because you don't want multiple witnesses to hear what the other person is saying. That would completely compromise then investigation.

57:01 It's standard practice to separate them. So two people were in a house with a dead girl, neither one claims to know anything about it, and one of them is beat up. What do you think is going on here? So after Alisha's interview, which lasted roughly an hour, Detective Dalton went straight in and he started to interview Ryan. Within twenty five minutes of ever speaking to Ryan, he had read him his rights. He realized that Ryan was not making sense. He listened to Ryan give multiple versions or multiple stories of what happened before Ryan eventually said, eventually said for the very first time that he had been shot. Detective Dalton looked at that with suspicion. You're walking in you're talking, bro, like, what do you mean you were shot in the face, and now you're just now saying this too. This has not been an ongoing theme.

57:59 But he listened to what he had to say. He questioned it, and then he went up closer, looked at Ryan and then said, you know what I do think you could see it in his body language. He's like, holy shit, this might actually be true. Improbable, but could be true. And to that point, the next thing that he did was he immediately immediately went outside, told him, don't move, stay right here. He called for medical and the entire contact between Detective Dalton and Ryan lasted from five twenty eight am to five fifty three am. That's a fact. It's videotaped. If you've watched the interview, you know this. You should know this. I find it incredibly unfair that multiple so called news outlets and storytellers have failed to mention this. When you armchair quarterback, you are the worst type of people. In situations as complicated and as serious as this was, you have to realize this, guys, you don't know what you don't know until it's made clear.

59:10 Everyone else has the luxury of summarized storytelling that leaves out the process, and that is completely unfair. It's unfair, and it demonizes the very people that are trying to solve the cases, rather than focusing on the actual killers. So the issue, in my opinion, was a hectic crime scene where multiple officers were working it, and when fire arrived, they saw Heather dead. They only knew that person as a victim. And that is why Ryan didn't get seen immediately, not because of an intentional move by police who ignored someone who was telling them that they were shot. It was never mentioned, and he simply looked like he had been in a fight, not to mention, he was walking and talking. So say what you want, but it defies all logic to jump to a conclusion that he was shot immediately. Ryan's first claim. Reminder to you, Ryan's first claim was that Heather had hit him. I hope that you're I really hope that you're listening to me on this one. I'm not taking up for the whole situation.

1:00:16 There was a miscommunication there, Okay, Whenever they found Heather and all the police officers and putting Ryan in the car, no doubt, no doubt, and they needed to review this and have an after action plan of how they can do better in the future. But to imply that this was more than that, I think is completely unfair. And this is at the point usually whenever people go, but he was shot Kelly and he wasn't making sense? You know, how did they not know because you wouldn't know that, just like the detectives until Detective Dalton sent him to the hospital. You can't armchair quarterback this with information you know from the start. And by the way, if you're wondering, why didn't the cops ask him, you know, or talk to him at the scene first, and that's because they found him at a scene at the same time that Heather was found dead, so that automatically turned this into a homicide case. And here's another thing that experience and knowledge would change in your mind or should explain to you, is that no officer, no officer is stupid enough to start asking questions of a potential witness or a potential suspect that may compromise the case down the line in court when a homicide detective is en route and will be doing the formal questioning, the process matters. It may not have gone perfect, but it's nowhere near what it

1:01:48 has been made out to be. But this is where things then get really messy in this case. And I want to tell you this, and I'm trying to be as genuine as possible when I say this. This next portion is incredibly difficult for me as a podcaster to share when I fully recognize that there are families hurting still today after this case. All Right, my heart aches, it genuinely does. It hurts for both Ryan and Heather's families. They didn't ask for any of this. They are victims in all of this, yet they're the ones who are left to deal with it.

1:02:31 Okay, they're the ones that are here. I could not hurt more for these families at the loss and the trauma of everything that's gone on here. But where I get a little sketched out, and I'm telling y'all now I'm going to get some hate for this, but I'm going to share it. Where I got a little sketched out is when accusations started flying that police may have changed the dates on their police reports. Okay, And to understand why this claim is made I have to lay out some foundation for you that I don't want to, but I feel like I have to. Okay, So here's the deal. Eventually, Ryan and his dad filed a lawsuit against the Phoenix Police Department. This was done on June twenty sixth, two thousand and nine, and three months later, this case was heard in court on September the tenth of two thousand and nine. In short, I will put, by the way, all of this on Patreon so you can go vet it and look at it yourself.

1:03:40 But in short, the lawsuit claimed that the Phoenix Police Department refused Ryan treatment and quote at some point during questioning end quote, a police officer concluded he had been shot in the face and then sent him for medical treatment. In the suit, they say it took seven hours for this to take place, but that cannot be accurate on its face, because I went back to the timestamps and if entry into the home was done at one twenty one am and Detective Dalton called for medical help at five fifty three am, that's not seven hours like to start with. So the suit also claims that because of this alleged refusal to seek medical treatment by police, that is the reason that Ryan suffered serious, permanent and painful injuries.

1:04:45 The issue with this that I took was that even the emergency room doctors completely disagree with this claim. The people who cared for Ryan, even Ryan's own medical witness. Ryan's medical witness, told the courts that the delay and care that he may have received would not have made much of a difference. In essence, they were explained that the damage to Ryan's brain had already been done to his body before the police ever arrived. Remember, at first, the police thought that the shooting occurred Christmas Day because that's when they found Heather and Ryan, but the medical examiner's report stated that Heather had been dead for at least a day or two when the autopsy was completed, based on her level of dcomp Also, remember no phone calls were made by Ryan or Heather after the twenty third of December. It made since this all aligns. Ryan's old bruising made sense too, because it happened on the twenty third. Hell, even the killer's mom slash wife told police it happened on the twenty third, Dad, But Ryan's dad says, no, that is not true. Ryan's dad says,

1:06:17 I saw Ryan on the twenty third and he was fine. Plus there was talk about the fact that Ryan's phone made calls after the twenty third, which is right, then is proof that Ryan wasn't yet shot. How could Ryan be on the phone if he's been shot and all this brain injury stuff has happened. But that's not true on its face either, because during the investigation I saw the report, it was found that Ryan had multiple cell phones. Not just one. The one making calls on or after the twenty third was a cell phone that Ryan had loaned to a friend named David, and that friend, David, who was interviewed, confirmed no, I was the one using that phone. Ryan owned it, his name was on the account and the bill, but David was the one that was still in possession of the phone after the incident and before the incident.

1:07:15 So partial truths are not truths. So in that lawsuit, Ryan's dad also made an additional claim that because of the neglect of Phoenix PD, he lost the quote companionship and affection of his son end quote, as well as financial losses, and that he has to care for his son who is permanently disabled. Well, these are some very serious claims, yet the court ruled against Ryan and his father in their lawsuit. They dismissed it. The court's dismissed the lawsuit. And you may wonder, oh my gosh, what in the world, because I wondered too. This seemed like something in my opinion, the PD would have settled and let insurance pay this out rather than deal with it. Honestly, that happens all the time. People sue police departments and they just settle, even if they're not in the wrong, because it's cheaper than fighting in court. Trust me, that happens all the time. It is cheaper to settle than to go fight for what is right. But in this case, the police fought back, fought back, as in, challenged the lawsuit, and so it begs the question why why on this one?

1:08:32 Why why did they fight on it? So I kept digging, and again it turns out that two things can be right at the same time. Was Ryan a victim in the shooting one hundred percent? Did he walk around for nearly two days with a bullet in his head and it damaged his brain one hundred percent? Did the police cause the damage to his brain because of their lack of care? Absolutely not medical doctors confirmed this. The damage was done to Ryan and well before the police ever got involved. That's why the case was dismissed. But then came another huge claim. The narrative began to shift, and now the claim is no, no, no, wait a minute, no, police forged and changed the date on the reports. Ryan was shot on the twenty fifth, but police lied and they changed it to the twenty third. All right, So you have to ask yourself, why would family or whomever make this claim. Why would they be so strongly pointing this finger saying that all of the reports must be forged.

1:09:35 So hang with me here. Why I looked at it as why would police do that? Why would the police forge documents? What do they have to gain from that? Why would this claim now be made? Well, this new claim is being made now because if the shooting did happen on the twenty third, then the delay and care would be the police officer's fault or the police department's fault, and then they would be liable for Ryan's brain injury. And if that's the case, this is worth a huge payout. There were even additional claims thrown out that the police broke Ryan's jaw when they took him into custody. Now, the report I read said that they used a pressure point pain compliance tactic, which is common, because he wouldn't put his hands behind his back and he had him under his stomach.

1:10:30 He was laying on. Them and that's why you know they had to do that so they could pull his arms out. Now, this is again my own opinion because I wasn't there, But if Ryan indeed did have a broken jaw, I would be willing to bet money. The police are telling the truth that they used the pain compliance tactic, and I'm not saying that they did that. I agree they did that, and they're telling the truth just because I love the police. No, it's because I have a brain, okay, because whenever Ryan was shot in the face, I would be willing to bet money his jaw broke when he collapsed straight down to the damn floor and slammed down on the floor. Like, does that not make sense? Do you think that Ryan was shot in the head and then he just laid down gently and just took a nap on the floor, Because I don't If you shoot someone in the head, they collapse immediately. That's when a jaw would be broken.

1:11:31 It makes more sense the different officers who wrote their report saying that the pain compliance tactic was used. So the dad I saw in an interview said no, Ryan says the police punched him in the face. Yeah. Well, Ryan also said that he was shot in the face with blow darts, that Heather hit him, and that Alicia that a friend Christina, was doing her hair on the couch. He was confused. How are we gonna pick and choose when he's telling the truth and when he's not. I'm not saying he was purposefully lying. I'm not saying that about Ryan, but I'm saying he is confused. He had a brain injury, there's no doubt, okay, but we're going to just dismiss the fact that he was shot in the face, that he didn't fall to the ground. That's probably where the jaw injury came from. But that said, if liability can be proven either way against the police department, then they would have to pay out big time.

1:12:21 In this lawsuit. So if you can't change the doctor's testimony and your lawsuit is thrown out, then claiming a conspiracy of report changes is the only thing really that's left to claim to win the lawsuit. That's my opinion, but I feel very strongly about this opinion founded in what I've what I know based on what I've researched, but so far, I also want to point this out. To believe the lawsuit claims and everything that's listed therein you would now need to believe that in terms of timeline, if you want to believe that Ryan was actually shot on the twenty fifth, and not only twenty third, this is also what you need to believe. You need to believe that Cheryl was lying, south Side was lying, hell Raiser was lying, Alisha was lying. All of the police are lying at different phases throughout this entire investigation. The coroner was lying.

1:13:21 The phone records from the phone companies were forged are altered. The friend Crystal was lying, the friend Philippe was lying. The dispatch records were forged or altered for nearly eight years worth of documentation. The fire department dispatches were forged or altered after the fact, Richie's friend Chunk and other friends were lying. Larry's sister, Larry's cousin, they were lying, And ultimately you have to believe that Ritchie and Larry are telling the truth and that they didn't do it. They were gone. It couldn't have happened. That is the only way that the shooting could possibly have happened on the twenty fifth. When you put all the timelines of what everyone who doesn't even know each other together, along with medical records and phone records and everything else, you have to believe all of that to believe it happened on the twenty third. But hey, if you think that's logical again, that's fine, stick with it. But guess what.

1:14:27 I kept digging even more, and that's when I found even more that I think matters in this case. I decided to dig into Detective Dalton's history. He has been so villainized that I need to know, what did this guy do? I need to know. I wanted to go find everything that I could on this detective, and I got to tell you what I found. I found that Detective Dalton has never been disciplined nor criminally charged in an over thirty year career in law enforcement and in homicide investigation, not even just this case, in anything, He's never been charged nothing, not even disciplined.

1:15:19 He also retired in good standing from the department years later. So this is when people start throwing out more accusations that I have to tell you based on what I looked into. Part of it is partially true, but if you understand what's happening, then you get why it's irrelevant. All right, So hang in here. It all has to do with what is called a consent decree. So admittedly this is where the average Joe doesn't care to learn anymore. But I'm gonna implore you to hear me out real quick, and I'm gonna shorten it up. Okay, but it's gonna go to the DOJ. Let's talk about them. Requick the Department of Justice. Okay, they have a civil rights unit of the DJ. It's basically you can do that, look it up yourself. But basically, the civil rights unit is a bunch of anti cop, anti law enforcement folks that feel like everything that police do is a civil rights violation.

1:16:23 They'll you know, cops are mean, cops use force, they don't listen to the suspects when they claim that their cuffs are too tight. I'm dead serious. Go look it up right now. Don't take my word for it. Well, in response to the Civil Rights Unit of the of the DOJ and what all they want to do in terms of looking at police. What they do is they open up inquiries in police departments. These are what these consent decrees are, which allows then if you can place a consent decree on a police department, it then allows the the DOJ base to oversee the department and micro analyze everything that they do. So what happens is when people hear, oh, the DOJ they put a consent decree, people automatically think the police department did something wrong. But the reality is that these these consent decrees are done maybe sometimes because there have been legitimate issues. I'm not saying that that doesn't happen, but oftentimes it's done to ruffle the feathers of cops, and it's also done to ruffle the feathers of citizens who already believe that cops inherently do everything to violate civil rights. Well, the consent decree was open against the police department, and that's where people start screaming, Oh, yeah, I knew it, I knew it.

1:17:44 Those cops, those scoundrels, they did something wrong. But what people who make that claim fail to do is to follow up on that consent decree. Because the full story is that those consent decree that were opened up against the Phoenix PD were found by the courts to be of such overreach, such overreach and a majority unfounded, which means there's no fact to it that the DOJ admits that they had to drop all of their inquiries into the Phoenix PD. I researched it myself. I took the time to learn something that I can really enlighten you on as well. That adds on to this because we have something that is information adjacent to what I've just told you in a dissent decree, okay, and you may want to know this. It's called a Brady List. Often, a Brady list is what the public incorrectly believes to be a list of officers that had been caught lying on the stand.

1:18:51 On the stand. If you have like a Ransom Raves page in your area, you'll see people always referring to Brady List, Brady List, and they're trying to say all these cops are lying, okay, and they'll they'll post a list, But the truth be told, that's not accurate. It is incredibly easy to be placed on a Brady list, even if you did not lie, even if you didn't do anything wrong. Let me explain if anyone within an investigation makes a mistake or gets a reprimand for example, falling asleep in a police unit while on duty. It can also include if the public makes a complaint, like a mad citizen makes a complaint about you, anything, anything. It's not about just testifying anything.

1:19:35 If there's an investigation and you are tied in to there being some sort of issue, even if it's nothing to do with lying, if it's it's something else, you. Can get grouped into that. Issue and placed on the Brady List because you are in that investigation. So the purpose of it initially is to bring awareness to the courts that extra scrutiny may need to be placed on someone's te testimony. Guess what that said. The fact that you can get on a Brady List very easily even if you're not a liar. Guess what. Detective Dalton isn't on the Brady List. In thirty plus years, in all of the investigations that he did, in all of the cases that he worked, he was never found to be part of a civil rights violation or anything like that. He had an exemplary career which he retired from with honors. So again it makes you wonder, why, why are all of these partial truths and inaccuries, in accuracies being pushed so hard. I want to know why, Like, I really want to know why. And I'll just say this, Okay, if a civil rights violation can still be proven for whatever reason, then it would make grounds for winning millions of dollars in on future lawsuit. Do with that information what you will. I'm not even gonna tell you what to do with it. I want you to just think that through. But it's the next few things that I

1:21:07 found that had me just throw my hands up in the air. I'm not gonna lie, just threw my hands up in the air, like what the fuck? I had to walk away from my computer for a while. My understanding before digging into this case was that Ryan was shot randomly, the police did a horrible job, and his rights were violated, and then he suffered and completely was disabled for the rest of his life before dying of a seizure. And this again is where this podcast is gonna get really hard. It's even hard for me because I have to decide between telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, even if it's gonna hurt feelings or to just end the story here, I'm gonna choose to keep going. You can decide what to do with the information, but I will tell you the whole truth.

1:21:52 Let me start again by saying Ryan was one hundred percent a victim in the shooting that took place at his home. He did not deserve that, and Heather did not deserve to be murdered. I know I sound like a broken record. I firmly believe that that is true. I think we all agree on that. The main reason I'm going to continue forward is because some things that I found out going further changed my understanding and perception about that pesky lawsuit that was filed against the Phoenix PD by Ryan's dad. Again, you can decide what to do with this information. Okay, I know that his dad is hurting. I know that his dad is heartbroken. He lost his son who died and was shot in the face and went through horrific things. My heart hurts for this man. Okay. However, there's more so After Ryan recovered from the shooting, Remember, the lawsuit implied that he was unable to care for himself, that he would need lifelong care by his father. That's why the lawsuit was filed, as it was told, was because he needed to file the lawsuit two years after Ryan recovered, so that he could care for Ryan financially for the rest of his life, stating, quote his future earning potential. Well, this isn't actually a direct quote, but stating his future earning potential was now destroyed as well as his pain and suffering. It was on page six of the lawsuit. I'll put it on Patreon.

1:23:20 You can go look at it yourself. Well, if that is the case, okay, And this is why I threw my hands up. That lawsuit was filed two years after Ryan recovered from the gunshot wounds, as much as you know he was going to recover. Well, why wasn't it mentioned that Ryan was able to do some pretty incredible things after recovery from this incident. Remember I already told you that Ryan was miraculously able to batter a worker at a convenience store. Well, let me tell you more about that. The battery happened when Ryan tried to buy a gift card. He got mad at the clerk when the total that he wanted to be put on the gift card wasn't available, even the he had confirmed the amount he wanted on the gift card before he purchased it.

1:24:05 I think it was like he wanted. He bought a twenty five dollars gift card. The clerk confirmed, are you sure you want to do twenty five because I can't alter it after you do that. He said, yes, put twenty five on it. The clerk did it, and then Ryan said, never mind, I want to do fifty, and the clerk said, I can't do that because that's why I confirmed ahead of time. Well, according to the report, that's when Ryan spit in the worker's face, tore down multiple food racks in the store, and then yelled bitch, fuck you as he left. Well, this is where I'm going to jump to Ryan's defense real quick, and I'm going to say, well, after a brain injury, people can suffer from lack of impulse control, and their emotions can vary and not match the situation at hand. I can completely see how someone with a brain injury could react poorly to the frustration of the situation. I'll give him credit there. You still can't batter other people, but I'll give him some grace there. Okay, But then when I found out later that Ryan went on to commit an armed robbery that sent him to prison for five years, I want you to know I did request the record of what all happened in the armed robbery. I did that weeks ago. It is still not available. When I do get it, I'm going to be sure to share that with you on Patreon so that we can know all the details of that.

1:25:24 It's not that I'm skipping over it. I just don't. It was not available and I didn't have eight more weeks to wait. Okay, but that said, armed robbery and lack of impulse control don't jive with me. He got five years in prison for that impulse control. I get it lack of but I've never not I've never lost control of my impulses that made me arm rob somebody. I don't get that. So what happened to the depending on his dad for full time care? Then in the lawsuit, if he was able to arm rob somebody and then go on and survive in prison for five years in prison, he made it in prison, it kind of blows that claim to hell that he couldn't care for himself. But the worst lie that's been sold to me and probably you, is that Ryan died of a seizure due to the brain damage because the police failed to get him adequate medical care.

1:26:27 I've heard multiple crime shows echo this. Well. I pulled Ryan's cause of death record because I wanted to see it for myself for storytelling purposes. I'm a very much trust but verified type of person, Okay. And I listened to interviews given by Ryan's dad and other shows, and I was listening to one and it was given by another podcaster who, by the way, has eight hundred thousand followers on YouTube. And rather than me tell you what was said, I'm going to play you a snippet of it. This is Ryan's dad stating what happened when Ryan passed away and.

1:27:10 Then ultimately one of the seizures caused him to pass right. He had had a seizure, the last one in the grocery store November, and it was January twentieth that ended up from a brain bleed from a seizure, and I'm sure that that's probably what caused it was the last seizure in the grocery store that caused a bleed. He hit his head on the ground. Yes, Ryan died on January twentieth, twenty sixteen. He was twenty seven years old at that point. Since Ryan's death was caused by a condition he had due to the gunshots, Larry and Ritchie could have been charged with his death. Dawn said that the family thought about it, but the two were already serving life without the possibility of parole and they didn't want to go through another trial.

1:27:55 After that section you just heard, the interviewer also adds that he gave this inner you to clear up all of the lies and incorrect information that has been spread throughout the years. Look, I admire that, I really admire you when you want to clarify lies right that have been told. But there's an issue here because I have Ryan's death certificate, death report in my hand right here, I have it. Ryan Waller's cause of death was a heroin overdose. How in the hell is this being sold as a deadly seizure?

1:28:38 How? How? I mean? Those are two very big different They're very different things. Okay, So if your dad is going to be financially responsible for you for the rest of your life and lifelong care is needed, then why was Ryan living in a different state than his dad? When he died. Ryan died in Florida. Ryan died in Florida, not Arizona. So I'm like, what the hell what is going on here. I'm not saying that Ryan didn't need help and care because he did have a brain injury. That's indisputable. But his seizures also, you know, those are legitimate. He did have seizures after the shooting. I legit believe that. I do believe Ryan sab when he says he suffered from seizures. But a heroin overdose and a seizure are very different causes of death.

1:29:29 So I've got the police report that went along with it, and this is what happened. Ryan was working at a grocery store when his girlfriend called up there to talk to him. They were paging him. He didn't answer. They go out in the parking lot. They saw that his car was still there. He drove a silver Catalog, So since his car was still there, They're like, he's got to be here somewhere. Well, they go to the bathroom and they knock on the door because the door was locked and they figured he was in the bathroom. He wouldn't answer. They knelt down, they looked. Underneath the door, and that's when they saw Ryan crumpled on the floor. So they ran and got a key, unlocked the door, and went into the restroom to try to help him. About that same time, and EMT just happened to walk into the store, I guess to go buy something, and they called out to him, please come help us, Please help us. So while workers called nine to one one, this EMT comes over to help and they started CPR. Well, the police arrive and they're looking in the bathroom and when they're looking in there, they put you know, Ryan's been pulled out. They're working on him.

1:30:29 They noticed that there's an aquafina water bottle as well as some paper towels that were folded up on the back of the toilet tank lid with a spoon and a syringe cap. On the floor right by Ryan was a syringe. Ryan's girlfriend was the one who handled the situation at the scene once you know, first of Ken was notified it was Ryan's girlfriend, and this included she refused to get police consent to search Ryan's car. So yeah, Ryan lived with his girlfriend. They lived together in Florida.

1:31:09 So at the hospital, Ryan ends up passing away Ryan's body was documented just like everybody else, and this included a notation that there were visible track marks on his left arm. Police went and spoke to the girlfriend again, and the girlfriend advised the officer that Ryan had just been released from prison and he was a recovering heroin addict. So I want to be clear again right here, I'm not bashing Ryan. Take it as you will, but I promise you I'm not bashing Ryan. It is what it is here. But when mistruths are spread and partial truths are echoed, it can completely distort the truth and the facts. Why why would this continue to be shared if not true?

1:31:55 Is it a parent trying to preserve his son's image. Probably so, Probably so. No one wants to have to address that he loves his son. No doubt this man loves his son. Is it because the truth is probably too hard to stomach? Probably so? Or is it still tied in to one day winning a lawsuit. It just should make you think you decide. I'm letting you decide. Whatever the reason, it's just not accurate. The manner of death is listed as accident and the cause of death is listed as a heroin overdose. Nowhere does it say seizure like nowhere. I would never share this information if it didn't apply directly to this case and all of the accusations that are flying. But Ryan's dad has continued after his death to claim he died as the result of a seizure, which I mean it could have caused a brain bl that mentions also, But it's all linked to the fact that the police didn't provide him proper care during this investigation. Y'all, heroin is involved in this that has nothing to do with the police. Whatever is going on here, it should serve as a lesson on many fronts, and one of those being the impact of how horrible this case was is now somewhat diminished when

1:33:27 the lies about the case are sold in an effort to weaponize it in the eyes of the media and to attack that police department, the very people that worked for years to solve this case. You know, Heather was lost in all of this too, by the way, this whole mess has lost Heather Kwan. Unfortunately, now, as you can probably tell, this case is remembered as the police versus Ryan, rather than Larry and Richie Carver versus Ryan Waller and Heather quad On Heather lost her life. Ryan was gravely injured, but he survived. And twenty years later, what if I told you Detective Dalton and his family are still receiving death threats based on media coverage about this case that is incomplete or just partial from everything I've seen, just to make this a more salacious storyline.

1:34:29 It's just so wrong. It is twenty twenty six as of the time I'm recording this, and there are still death threats received. I found that Detective Dalton, even though y'all there was a team of homicide detectives on this case, there was like five of them. I have that too, I'll put it on Patreon for you. There was multiple officers involved in this, but because he was the one who did that twenty five minute interview, he's the one who takes all the scrutiny. And I found in further research that Detective Dalton had to hire a company to scrub his entire existence from the internet to protect his family. Still today, can you imagine you show up for work one day, you do the job that you have done with honors for thirty years, and because you didn't solve what happened in the first ten minutes, people think that you should die for it.

1:35:23 I've yet to hear any discussion that rises to that level of anger for the fucking murderers. I don't know why this has bothered me so deeply, but it has because this happens all the time, all the time, this happens that nobody looks at the whole case, nobody looks at all of the information. Of course, hindsight is crystal clear. Things could have been done better in this investigation, no doubt, but nothing was done with malice, ill will or complete ineptness. I've already got people sending me hate mail after just one episode. But the difference is I want you to know this as my listener. I'm committed to the truth and I'm not swayed by public opinion. I can read and I can think for myself. My goals have always been in life to be a good and truthful person, not the most popular person. And with that said, I am okay with not being liked by everyone. When I have the facts in front of me, I'm good with it.

1:36:23 This entire case has left multiple lives destroyed and people a heartbroken in all aspects of it. I tip my hat to the Kwan family for taking the worst thing to ever happen to them and use it for good, making tangible changes to a law that holds the potential to benefit so many people in the future. My heart aches for Ryan's mama. She no doubt loved her boy and she suffered an ongoing life altering trauma before losing him to a battle that's very hard to overcome. I hate that Heather had to lose her life and be brain damaged for the rest of his life. And I also hate that people today believe whatever they want to believe without actually thinking or looking into it any further, and continue to harass someone who had a good career and was found on multiple fronts by the courts, by everybody to not have done something he's being accused of.

1:37:25 And that is the detective in this case. And before I wrap this up, a little reminder for the self appointed experts with a microphone and a Wi Fi connection. Okay, gossip isn't journalism, and repeating rumors with dramatic background music doesn't magically turn you into a trusted source. Some folks spend more time chasing clicks than fact checking and treating speculation like evidence. And Facebook comments like sworn testimony, research is considered optional when outrage is paying you better. Having a million followers doesn't make you credible, it makes you popular.

1:38:11 And look, mistakes can happen. That happens. I make mistakes, but facts can't change. And when you get major facts wrong, you are not informing the public, you're inciting them. We should all aim to seek the truth. That is what justice is all about. You know, real life is scary enough without people out here posting hearsay and calling it content. That's dangerous and it has real consequences for real people. It's hard enough dealing with the lion criminals without a pissed off, misinformed public breathing down your neck as well. So take note, y'all. I want you to think, scrutinize when you get your information and where you get your information from, because from where I'm sitting, it's hard to tell who's lying more, the crooks or the media. Both of them seem to be playing fast and loose with the facts. And when that is done, the audience is the only group of people that are getting robbed.