July 8, 2025

Part Four | Did She Do it: The Investigation Into Karen Read

Part Four | Did She Do it: The Investigation Into Karen Read
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Season 7

In this episode of Unspeakable, KJ brings you the 4th episode in this series, where she takes a deep dive into the death of Boston police officer John O'Keefe and brings you into the investigation of his girlfriend Karen Read to finally answer the question…Did she do it?

Timestamps
01:37 Baseball and Evidence
04:29 The Night of John's Death
09:13 The Missing Evidence
10:53 The Faraday Bag Mystery
15:50 In-Law Albert's Statements
27:48 Cell Phone Confusion
29:59 The Nature of the Calls
32:09 The Voicemail Evidence
38:32 The Group Text Messages
44:35 Carrie Roberts' Role
46:40 The Google Search Controversy
1:02:53 Deleted Evidence

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SOURCES
https://www.cartwrightfuneral.com/obituaries/John-J-III-JJ-OKeefe obId=29113887 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/236494717/john_j-o'keefe/photo
https://whdh.com/news/john-okeefe-was-a-veteran-officer-and-devoted-father-figure/ https://www.today.com/popculture/officer-who-appeared-police-reality-show-bostons-finest-dies-2d11638373
https://www.patriotledger.com/story/news/2014/01/16/two-young-canton-kids-lose/40602672007 /https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2025/05/07/who-karen-read-trial-murder-case/83476129007/
https://www.masslive.com/news/2025/04/these-are-the-20-people-you-need-to-know-to-follow-karen-reads-2nd-trial.html

WEBVTT

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Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell

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stories of real crimes with real victims, whose cases are

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so shocking that many are left wondering how is this

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even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections,

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and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator,

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dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so

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evil many feel they are unspeakable. Warning, Unspeakable as intended

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for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm

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not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey y'all, it's

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kJ back with another episode of Unspeakable. I know y'all

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have been rocking with me through this Karen Reid case

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that has to do with John O'Keefe. So hopefully by

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now you realize that there's a whole lot of players.

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I know, I keep saying that you should be pretty

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much having a grasp of who these major players are

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and how they're related. So if you're unsure, or if

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you like faces, maybe you're someone who likes to put

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faces to the people, so you can help follow along.

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On Patreon, I have posted a breakdown with faces so

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that you can look at these people and you can

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kind of assess what's going on, along with a million

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other things, crime scene photos and whatnot. So that's for

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your convenience and your understanding if you want it. If not,

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don't look at it. Doesn't bother me. But I want

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to warn you before I start here that this is

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a part four. So if you have not listened to

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parts one, two, and three, this one's not gonna make sense.

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So please go back listen to one through three and

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then jump in right here with us on part four.

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So now that I'm approaching this, this wrap up of

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this of this series, I got to thinking about baseball. Okay,

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And I know you're like, what why I should think

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of baseball? Well, if you're not a fan of baseball,

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no worries. The point I'm gonna make is still it's

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still going to resonate, I think because now in our

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age of instant replays in sports, Okay, a coach can

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contest a call if they think the officials got that

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call wrong. But here's the thing. Whenever they're trying to

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see if they're going to overturn a call that's been made,

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there has to be overwhelming evidence that the call that

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was made was wrong. It's got to be overwhelmingly clear.

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It's not that they could have got it wrong. It's

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that it's overwhelmingly clear that that call was wrong. The

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runner that was called out at first base, if it's

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a close call, when they go look at that instant replay,

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you have to clearly see the runner's foot touch the

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bag right before the glove closes of the first basement.

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The problem with a lot of what I'm going to

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be talking about in this portion of the series is

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that we don't have the vantage point to prove one

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hundred percent without a shadow of a doubt that what

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is being seen on video necessarily dictates the argument of

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what's being claimed to be happening. So it's just not

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going to be as clear as what I'm trying to

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tell you. You're gonna have to be the person that

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decides while you're listening to this which you most agree with.

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I'll kind of present you sometimes with two options, and

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i want you, as the listener to decide, because it's

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not going to be crystal clear, overwhelming like a sports replay. Okay,

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so you have a job to do while you're listening.

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So I've spoken a bit about the inconsistencies of whether

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ATF Brian Higgins was at the in law Albert's home

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the morning the in law Alberts and the mccabs were

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being interviewed by Sergeant lank Well, it would really matter, Okay.

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I made a point to say that that timeline, no

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one was actually quite clear on what was actually happening specifically,

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and it would really matter with respect to the fact

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that it was discovered that ATF Higgins was on camera

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as having gone to the Canton PD in the wee

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early morning hours of John's death. So here's the argument

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that's coming your way. Basically, someone or something or somehow

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John O'Keefe had to be hurt before one am. That's

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clear and convincing that that has to be the case.

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So the question is really was it Karen that she

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hit him? Was it ATF Higgins? Was it in law

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Brian Albert? Even Colin Albert, which is Pizza Albert's son.

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But I'm not going to go in depth on Colin

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because look, he was seventeen. If you've been following this

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case for a while, you know that he was brought

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up a lot, but he was seventeen whenever that happened. Plus,

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I'm gonna tell you that text messages, in my opinion,

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vouched for Colin not being a part of what happened

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to John real quick to get it out of the way.

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There were texts between Colin Albert and his cousin which

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have been would have been Ali McCabe, and he was

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asking Ali if she was going to come pick him

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up and bring him home, and those were provided to police.

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Police looked at those and at eleven fifty four he

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said to her, you can get me now if it's easier,

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and she said, I'm driving people home right now, and

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he said, word get me after And then at twelve ten,

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Ali wrote here and he answered her and said okay.

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So I know kids, I know teenagers, and he's not

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going to say okay and then not go to the car,

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especially when he was waiting on her. I don't think

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it's plausible that he was, you know, like fighting with

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John or something and then went to the car randomly

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and she didn't see anything. And I just, I personally

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am not behind the whole theory that some people say

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that maybe Colin got in a fight with John. So

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I just I'm not going to spend a lot of

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time on it now. Karen said she didn't hit him

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and she was gone by then, and this is verified

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according to the GPS in her vehicle, combined with the

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fact that her cell phone connected to John's home WiFi

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shortly thereafter. So the time that they're trying to say

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that the state is trying to say that Karen would

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have hit him, it kind of doesn't give much time, okay,

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because of what I just told you. So remember the

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the flirty texts between Karen and ATF Higgins that I

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mentioned last episode, and the fact that she had kissed

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him once. Well, Karen told ATF. Higgins that John suspected

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that something might be going on between them, and she

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said that John had even showed her at one point

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ring camera footage from whenever she walked ATF. Higgins out

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of the house when he had come over one time.

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So that's under did that that happened, and Karen wouldn't

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have a reason to lie about that because it doesn't

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look good for her in my assessment of these things.

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So the defense was starting to think that maybe at F.

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Higgins may have hurt John after possibly confronting John, or

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John confronting him about his interactions with Karen. And then

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it all boiled over that night after Karen dropped him off.

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So that now begs some questions about at F. Higgins's

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actions the night of John's death. Number one, why on

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earth when they found this out, would you go to

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your law enforcement place of work at one a m.

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After an admittedly heavy, heavy night of drinking. That sounds

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dumb as shit If I'm being brutally honest, okay, like

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by total luck and probably divine intervention. Okay, I'll be honest.

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I'm married to a man that is sober and he

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doesn't drink. Thus, I personally have my own designated driver

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because this heifer ain't drive in even after one drink.

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I'm not gonna do it. Why Because it's not worth

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it to me. I have too much to lose and

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I don't want to risk other people's lives, So I

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don't drink and drive. And now here we have a

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police officer pounding drinks and then going to work when

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he's not even on duty, nor is it even his

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honestly his like place of legit business that he works for.

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He just has an office there because he's friends with

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the chief. So what could possibly be that urgent that

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you would even do this after a night of heavy drinking.

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It doesn't really jibe that you would do that. And

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then the other question becomes where exactly did he go

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and why did he go there? All this kind of

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seems pretty curious. So here's a breakdown of that for

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you ATF. Higgins because a lot of this is called

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on camera. ATF. Higgins is seen arriving at the Canton

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PD at roughly one o'clock in the morning. He wasn't

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there long either, y'all. He left after like thirty minutes

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or so. So when he was asked initially why did

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you go to Canton PD at one am? He said,

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he went to quote, fulfill some administrative duties. That's when

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they originally asked him. And so it's kind of like

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when you were blitzed from a night of drinking. Knofam,

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I'm not buying that. That doesn't that's stupid. Who would

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do that? So when more detailed, pointed questions were again

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sent his way, then he got a lot more specific.

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He said, well, I was moving some vehicles at the

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PD because the chief had requested it before he had

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gotten on to me. Because of where I parked my

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vehicle that the plows, the snow plows were not able

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to make it through that parking lot if I parked

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on the outer spots of the parking lot. So you

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do see him on camera. He arrives in his jeep

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and he parks. You see him go into the building.

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He goes down a hall, he enters for a few

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minutes into a side room that doesn't have cameras, and

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then he goes back out to the vehicles in the

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parking lot. So the question was like, well, what are

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you doing in the room. It wasn't quite clear. He

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says he was getting the keys to those other vehicles

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because he left them on his desk, so other people,

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if they needed the keys, could move the car. So

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I mean, that's absolutely plausible. But he had already been

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there earlier. If you remember, I told you he and

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in law Brian Albert went to that funeral in New

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York and then they came back. They went back to

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the police station, and he acknowledged, yeah, we went to

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the Canton Pede. I went there and I got my

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personal jeep and I dropped the work truck. So then

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it's like, okay, well why didn't you move them when

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you were there, like you knew a blizzard was coming in,

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and you were already there. Why didn't you move them

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then before going out for a night of drinking and

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then come back at one am in the morning to

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move them when you had already been there and it

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was out of your way. And he would argue, because

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it's been a long day. It was a long, hard day.

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I wanted to go out, I was hungry, I was

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ready to go relax and have some drinks, and I

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didn't want to move the cars again. Okay, So this

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is where my personal issues are raised with that statement.

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If you left the keys on the desk so that

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the cars could be moved if someone needed to, then

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they could have moved them. He didn't need to go

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the whole reason he left the keys there. And the

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other issue I have is that he never went back

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into the building to return the keys back into the building.

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So if you had to go there to get the keys,

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then it seems to me that you would move the

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cars and then put the keys back, because those aren't

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your cars, those are the state's cars. But he never

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even went and put the So the other thing is

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when I go back and I'm watching the video, He

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never moved any cars. He went out and he got

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some items from his work truck. He put those items

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into his personal vehicles, but cars never moved. And so

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I thought maybe I was tripping when I first watched

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the video, like what did I miss? But I'm not.

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He did not move any cars. So this is something

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that the average Joe would not know, but I'm gonna

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bring it up for you because I want you to

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know about it. And it's a thing called a Faraday bag.

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Do you know about those? If you're in law enforcement,

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you might know about him. If not, it might be

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new to you, but it's super important for an investigator,

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which ATF Higgins is alcohol, tobacco on firearms investigator. Okay,

220
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this would be something that he had. So in brevity,

221
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these are bags that are carried and I would say

222
00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:57.720
a standard practice by anybody that's an investigative level. And

223
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what they're for is that they maintain electronic devices by

224
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making it impossible for the phones to be accessed other ways,

225
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Like they can't access a wireless signal, so like cellular,

226
00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:12.960
Wi Fi, Bluetooth, it blocks all of that, so the

227
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phone can't access that. Why would that need to happen

228
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well thieves or accomplices in a crime that might involve

229
00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:27.039
some type of electronic they can potentially remotely wipe data

230
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:30.399
from a device, and Faraday bags are used to prevent

231
00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:34.759
this from happening, and they ensure the integrity of digital evidence.

232
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But they also are a weird thing to put in

233
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your personal vehicle, Like, why would you do that? If

234
00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.240
that even happened. I can't tell you exactly what he transferred,

235
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but I can tell you it wasn't a huge bag,

236
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but it also wasn't a ten ninety bag, so like,

237
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maybe he wanted to put that in his get, but

238
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why Well then it's like, well, wait a minute, maybe

239
00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:01.759
he put his own phone in it, maybe so that

240
00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:05.600
people wouldn't know his identity of where he was his

241
00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:08.120
whereabouts later on. It's just kind of a working theory.

242
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And it was also suggested that maybe he wasn't just

243
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.039
getting a large Duffel bagasse it looks like it does

244
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:19.840
look like a large Duffel bag, but some people say

245
00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:24.159
that's not a Duffel bag, that's a breakdown spineboard bag.

246
00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:28.360
So I looked into that. I don't personally think that

247
00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.320
bag looks like that, but it was brought up either way,

248
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:37.759
No one really knows what exactly he was transferring that night, regardless,

249
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.720
he never moves any cars and he gets in his

250
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:46.200
jeep and he drives away. But there's other purposes that

251
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.480
he might could have gone there, assuming maybe something did

252
00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:51.120
happen to John at that house, and that's kind of

253
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.480
the avenue we're going down here. He would have access

254
00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.399
to the dispatch nine when one center because he had

255
00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:01.120
to walk past it. He did I'll tell you, I'll

256
00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.519
tell you this. He did say that he didn't go

257
00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:06.039
in nine one one, But then at one point it

258
00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:07.840
was said that he opened the door and just said

259
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:10.960
hey and waved and said hello, and then he left. Well,

260
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if he waved and he said hello, that's actually kind

261
00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.759
of a big deal, because do y'all remember from the

262
00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:18.679
previous episode who I told you was working in the

263
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nine one one center that night? It was Sergeant Good.

264
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:26.399
Sergeant Good was the man who called Sergeant Lank to

265
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respond to John's body. Five hours after Higgins stopped by

266
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the office to move cars that he didn't actually move.

267
00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:39.639
He was questioned and he said, oh, yeah, I did

268
00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.879
see ATF Higgins when he got to the station early

269
00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:47.039
that morning, and he said, I really wasn't sure why

270
00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:49.200
he was there. He wasn't on duty and we didn't

271
00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:51.919
call him in for anything, so I don't know why

272
00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:55.600
he was there, but I did see him there. So

273
00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.320
the question kind of became, well, wait a minute, is

274
00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:02.559
it possible that Higgins stopped by to see if nine

275
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one one had already gotten a call about something that

276
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:10.360
happened at that thirty four Fairview? Maybe just assessing to

277
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:12.720
see if he had time to go back to Fairview

278
00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.679
to maybe move John's body or something of that nature

279
00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.039
if he had been involved in it. Because again, there's

280
00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:21.399
a lot of unknowns at this point, but it sure

281
00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:26.840
did seem plausible. Also, the entire time that he was

282
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.080
at Canton p D. He was on the phone a

283
00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:34.600
majority of that time with somebody, And are you curious

284
00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:37.240
as to who he was talking to? I was, who

285
00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:38.759
are you talking to at one o'clock in the morning

286
00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:43.320
at Canton ped what? Maybe it was in law Brian Albert?

287
00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:46.639
They what if something happened and they're talking to each other.

288
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:51.679
What if he went in waved hello just to see

289
00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:53.879
if they're like, damn, man, you know John got hit

290
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.759
or something like that. But when that didn't happen, they

291
00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:01.039
knew the call hadn't come in yet. Well, I wanted

292
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.440
to know, and maybe you want to know too. Maybe

293
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:05.079
you're like, well, who was he on the phone with?

294
00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:10.799
Let's find out. Well, that will never happen because ATF

295
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:16.079
Higgins got rid of his cell phone. After that happened.

296
00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:19.119
How did this go on? I don't mean that night

297
00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.960
he tossed it. Follow me ATF. Higgins said he met

298
00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:27.039
with state Trooper Proctor and Trooper Buchanic. Buchanic was Procter's

299
00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:30.799
supervisor on February third. That was just a couple days

300
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:33.839
after John died. He died on the twenty ninth. He

301
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:38.319
provided his text messages to the state police. They had

302
00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:41.720
not requested them. He volunteered them. Here you can. You

303
00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:44.559
can have these text messages since I was there that night.

304
00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:48.720
But there was something that ATF Higgins did not mention

305
00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:52.839
about when he gave those messages up to the state.

306
00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:59.480
He didn't mention that he accessed special ATF software to

307
00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:04.400
extra information from his phone. I can't say whether this

308
00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:06.480
happened or not. The next part. We know he did

309
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:11.039
access the software, but that software does and I confirmed this.

310
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.599
I called and asked somebody in the know about this,

311
00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.720
and he confirmed it. This would also have allowed him

312
00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:21.599
to manipulate the messages on his phone prior to handing

313
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:23.519
them over. And for the record, I want you to

314
00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:25.920
know that because I asked, I wanted to know could

315
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.799
he have done something, and absolutely that's a possibility. After

316
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.440
he hooked it up to that ATF software machine and

317
00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:38.920
extracted those messages for the state, he also then said, well, yeah,

318
00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.359
I got rid of my phone shortly thereafter because I

319
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:44.880
had to get aw I needed to get a new one. So,

320
00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:48.599
as an ATF agent who knew by that point on

321
00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.960
February third, he knew that he was in question and

322
00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.599
that he needed his text messages and they were going

323
00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:58.799
to be looking into all that. He knew this. He

324
00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:03.119
was an investigator, and he went and did all of

325
00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:07.119
that knowing what he knows about investigations. And by the way,

326
00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:09.359
this wasn't brought up really, but I want to tell

327
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:13.119
you this. Using ATF equipment for what would be deemed

328
00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:18.720
quote unquote personal use is a violation of policy. Anywhere

329
00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:22.559
you go, you cannot use any equipment for personal use.

330
00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:25.359
Let me give you an example real quick. You know

331
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:28.799
police officers have their CAD their computer in their car.

332
00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.960
They cannot just look up anybody's name to see where

333
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:36.640
they live or see stuff about them. It's tracked, it's logged,

334
00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:38.799
you know what I mean. And so you don't have

335
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:40.880
a right to I'm going to I don't know if

336
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:42.680
the word's abused, but I guess it is abuse your

337
00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.880
powers because you want to know about somebody in that manner.

338
00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:49.480
But yet you think it's appropriate that you can use

339
00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:53.119
your phone when you're a witness slash suspect and an investigation,

340
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.640
go download your materials and turn it over and then

341
00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.480
get rid of the phone. That's idiocracy if you're an

342
00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:05.440
investigator to even attempt that. Secondly, what he did in

343
00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:09.200
that moment, if I were a supervisor, that would warrant

344
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:13.839
impeding or interfering with an investigation. Charges should have been

345
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:17.160
brought on him. And I even spoke to some law

346
00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.240
enforcement supervisors I know whenever I was thinking about all this,

347
00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.400
and they agreed with me. No, no, no, no, no,

348
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:25.640
you're not the investigator on this. You are a witness

349
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:29.680
slash suspect. Also, if you're going to get rid of

350
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.720
a phone because you need a new one, you're an

351
00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:36.279
ATF agent, turn the son of a gun off and

352
00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:39.319
put it in a drawer until you're cleared, and then

353
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.440
get rid of it. You didn't need to get rid

354
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.839
of it. You wanted to get rid of it. You

355
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:49.240
knew better. So the data Higgins ATF. Higgins said he

356
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.599
quote unquote handed over, in my opinion, sounds like it

357
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:54.599
was just an honor system that they just were going

358
00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:57.359
to believe that what he gave them was what all

359
00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:02.480
there was. The very data that was given to the

360
00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:06.519
state to look at was what he provided them. A

361
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:11.039
possible suspect in a dead CoP's death, with years of

362
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:16.480
experience got rid of his phone, then they should go

363
00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:18.920
and check and see what they can find out. But

364
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.359
now they can't because he got rid of it, y'all.

365
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:26.359
That stinks all day long. Well there's a way around this, though,

366
00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:30.359
right because they could go get in law Albert, Brian

367
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.440
Albert's phone and they can check his records to see

368
00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:36.799
was he on the phone with ATF Higgins. They could

369
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:38.519
just kind of reverse engineer it. You know, it didn't

370
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:40.799
rocket science, And you would be right if you were

371
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.440
thinking that to yourself. They could they could if he

372
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:50.160
too hadn't gotten rid of his cell phone just one

373
00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:55.519
day before a court order was issued to preserve his phone.

374
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:57.920
I tell y'all that I do not believe in coincidences.

375
00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:02.240
Do you do you believe coincidences like this? One day

376
00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:04.480
before a court order is issued, he gets rid of

377
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:10.359
the phone. Two potential suspects ditch their phones, and both

378
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:15.279
of them seasoned the cops at that come on and ATF.

379
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:19.119
Higgins would later be asked if he called anyone while

380
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:23.200
he was at the police station, and he was like, no,

381
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:24.759
I mean if they were like, oh, so you didn't

382
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:26.079
call anybody, and he was like, well, I mean if

383
00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:29.720
I did, it would have been a butt dial, because

384
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:34.359
records would show that at some point in this questionable timeframe,

385
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:38.839
they were able to see that ATF Higgins did call

386
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:42.559
Brian Albert, but he said it was a butt dial,

387
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.519
It wasn't a real call. Well, the question becomes with

388
00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:46.920
your face, how do you butt dial somebody with a

389
00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:51.279
phone to your face? That's weird And speaking of in

390
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.920
law Brian Albert. Okay, this is all about his house,

391
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:57.559
but I haven't told you much about what he said

392
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:02.119
in his interview. So so starting with let's go to

393
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:06.519
the day that John died. He confirmed that when he

394
00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:11.160
was downstairs and that Sergeant Lank came into the home.

395
00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.039
Whenever he was questioned about it, all he said was, yes,

396
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:17.160
Sergeant Lank was there, and they're like, by himself, he

397
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:19.200
was like, yeah, it was just sergeant Lank the very

398
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.640
first time that they spoke. And remember they're trying to

399
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.119
a lot of people are trying to say, oh, no, no,

400
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:25.279
that's not what happened, that's not what happened. Well, when

401
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:27.440
he was questioned, he said, yeah, it was just sergeant Lank,

402
00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:31.240
and this was that meeting that was not recorded and

403
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:33.400
no notes were taken. So it's kind of hard to

404
00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:36.240
argue that that didn't happen whenever you didn't realize what

405
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:38.319
you were being asked and you told the truth at

406
00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:43.559
that moment. He also said that he called ATF. Higgins

407
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:48.279
before the cops returned the second time to talk to him,

408
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.079
so Lank came in the house, they talked. We have

409
00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:53.319
no clue what that was about. And then he says

410
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:57.559
when Lank walked back outside, he called ATF. Higgins And

411
00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:00.000
then the next time Lank came in with another officer

412
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:05.119
and they spoke again. So he said that the only

413
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:07.920
time that he realized anything was going on back up

414
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.519
before that was whenever he looked out of his bedroom

415
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.400
window after his sister in law, Jennifer McCabe, busted into

416
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:17.079
the room and woke them up, and he said, I

417
00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:18.960
went and looked out of the window. I saw a

418
00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:21.960
cop car. I saw some emergency vehicles. He said, I

419
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.680
couldn't tell you exactly which ones I saw, but that's

420
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.200
what happened. Later on in this questioning, he says that

421
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:33.680
he went to his sister in law, Jennifer McCabe's house

422
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:39.119
later that day and it just so happened that she

423
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:42.799
was being interviewed by the police when that happened, and

424
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:45.480
they're like, so you show up whenever she's being interviewed,

425
00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:48.319
and he's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he said, but

426
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:51.240
that's just because I knew she had found John's body

427
00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:54.119
and I wanted to go comfort her. But he said,

428
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:55.640
I did know the police were there, but I was

429
00:24:55.720 --> 00:25:00.839
just going to comfort her. So they asked some more

430
00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:05.799
questions about that. He said that Jennifer McCabe and Matt McCabe,

431
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:11.720
her husband, were spoken to separately in that home and

432
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:16.279
that it happened while he went upstairs, and that he

433
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:20.039
had no idea of what they were talking about, and

434
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:22.160
that you know, blah blah blah blah blah. Well, I

435
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:25.680
find that completely laughable that you just randomly showed up

436
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.559
to comfort her. You're in the exact same house being

437
00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:35.200
questioned by police, and y'all both are considered witnesses slash suspects,

438
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.319
and they let that goes down in the same house.

439
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:40.440
He said that he had no knowledge when he was

440
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:44.599
asked about ATF. Higgins and the flirtatious texts between he

441
00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:48.599
and Karen, he said, I didn't know anything about that. Well,

442
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:55.039
then on February third, that's when State Trooper Proctor interviewed

443
00:25:55.119 --> 00:26:00.319
in law Albert and his wife another time. Okay, have

444
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.640
you ever watched television ever if you liked true crime

445
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:07.119
ever in your life and heard the saying that the

446
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:10.400
first forty eight hours is the most crucial timeframe in

447
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:13.000
an investigation. Hell, there's a show called the first forty

448
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:15.680
eight because that is the most crucial time that you

449
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:20.160
gather all of the information in an investigation after something happens. Okay,

450
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:24.839
so the question here is if it happened on January

451
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:31.000
twenty ninth. Why did you wait multiple days before you

452
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:34.160
even went and questioned the people that the very body

453
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:36.799
was found in front of their house. It's odd to

454
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:41.079
me that you didn't even ask them. But another question,

455
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.839
regardless of that, is if you knew something was going on,

456
00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:46.759
because he said he looked out of his window, right,

457
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:50.359
why didn't you come outside when all of that commotion

458
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:54.799
was happening the morning John was found. Okay, you didn't

459
00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:58.119
come outside even after Jen mckab woke you up, y'all

460
00:26:58.119 --> 00:27:01.160
didn't come outside to see what was going on. And

461
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:03.200
his answer was, well, we just didn't hear it. We

462
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.279
didn't know what was going on. We were both asleep

463
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:10.119
and whenever she woke me up, that's whenever I went downstairs.

464
00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:13.319
And then he's like, so, so Sergeant Lank was there

465
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:14.960
at that point, and we questioned, well, you said that

466
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:17.720
you looked out your window, so like, I'm trying to

467
00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:21.480
understand this, I'm really trying to understand this. So they asked, okay,

468
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:24.920
well what happened the night before? And this is Brian

469
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:28.640
in law, Brian's account mixed with phone data because I

470
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:30.759
want it to be more cohesive as I'm telling it

471
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.480
to you. He says, when they got home, he went

472
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:38.039
upstairs and he put his phone in the bed with

473
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:40.880
him to sleep at night. And they asked, so you

474
00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:42.359
don't you know, you don't put your phone on a

475
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:45.720
charger at night, and he was like, I mean, no,

476
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:47.440
not always. Sometimes you just throw it in the bed

477
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:50.079
with me at night. Ask yourself what you do with

478
00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:52.200
your cell phone at night? Maybe you don't charge it?

479
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:54.920
I do, Jimothy, you're in here. Do you charge your

480
00:27:54.920 --> 00:28:02.240
phone at night? You don't, really, So you you listened

481
00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:04.359
to you put your cell phone on your like nightstand

482
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:05.880
and just listen to it while you're falling asleep, but

483
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:12.720
you don't charge it while it's on the night sand Wow.

484
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.160
All right, So there you go, two differing opinions on

485
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:21.519
what happens with cell phones. Well then asked, you know,

486
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:25.240
riddle me this. Why on the phone records does it

487
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:32.160
show that you called ATF. Higgins at two twenty two am.

488
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:36.160
He says, oh, I didn't call him, And they're like, yeah,

489
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.240
you did. I mean, it's in it's in the record

490
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.480
that you did. So he goes, oh, well, I must

491
00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:46.200
have butt dialed ATF. Higgins. But y'all this was on

492
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:52.200
an iPhone, and so when this was further pressed, he

493
00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:54.279
then says, okay, fine, I was having sex with my

494
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:58.839
wife and I guess I accidentally called him, butt dialed him,

495
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:00.640
sex dialed him. Whatever the hell, we're gonna call this

496
00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:04.000
right now, so let's break it down a little bit more.

497
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:09.400
The call lasted. The first call lasted like two seconds,

498
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:15.680
but then there was seventeen seconds later Brian Higgins called

499
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:19.039
in law Brian back in law Albert back. He called

500
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:22.680
him back, and when he called back, that call lasted

501
00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:28.480
twenty two seconds. So if you butt dialed him and

502
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:30.440
then he called you back, how was there a twenty

503
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.319
two second call after that? If it was just you

504
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:36.920
weren't answering the phone, And all in law Albert could

505
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:39.640
say was he didn't know. He said, I did not

506
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:43.480
know that ATF. Higgins ever called me that morning, and

507
00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:47.640
then the next morning this becomes interesting. The next morning

508
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:51.039
he said he didn't ever recall seeing a missed call

509
00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:55.079
from ATF. Higgins, and a voicemail wasn't left either. He

510
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:56.359
was like, I just don't know what you're talking about.

511
00:29:56.359 --> 00:29:58.359
That there wasn't even a voicemail, So there was no

512
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.960
voicemail and you're claiming there was no missed call for

513
00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.400
twenty two seconds, then what the hell happened? If he

514
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.720
would have said there was a voicemail, then I would say, oh, okay, well,

515
00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:11.359
I guess he left a voice, you know, but dial

516
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:15.359
maybe there was a twenty two second just quiet type

517
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:19.519
message okay. But he said there was no voicemail. Something

518
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:22.759
happened for twenty two seconds, he admitted. He says, I

519
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:25.119
was awake because I was having sex with my wife,

520
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:28.119
but I never heard the phone ring. So then it's like, okay, well,

521
00:30:28.119 --> 00:30:30.319
maybe his phone was on silent, like let's really talk

522
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.480
this through. But that didn't make sense either, because he

523
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:36.920
had said earlier in the interview that the whole reason

524
00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:38.759
he had the phone in the bed with him was

525
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:41.160
because of his kids, and if there was an emergency,

526
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:44.519
he wanted his kids to be able to call him. Well,

527
00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:47.559
if your phone is on silent, then you're not going

528
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.960
to hear your kids call. But then I got to thinking, okay,

529
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:54.119
well I have my phone set on silent at night,

530
00:30:54.279 --> 00:30:57.359
except I have three people that if they call me

531
00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:59.920
three times back to back to back, the call then

532
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:05.279
will come through and it'll be loud. Okay, but this

533
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:08.440
is not the pattern. You know that we can prove

534
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.680
happened or would have happened because nobody else called. Okay. Also,

535
00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:14.640
when he says no voicemail was left, I need y'all

536
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:16.319
to know this, I'm gonna call my dad out. Okay.

537
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:19.759
My stepdad butt dials me all the damn time. All

538
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:22.920
the time he butt dials me. But the difference here

539
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.799
is that he always leaves me freaking voicemails. Okay. And

540
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:28.839
I sit there and he's talking to people at the

541
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.000
grocery store about how great candaloops are, or I hear

542
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:34.160
noises of him getting in and out of the car.

543
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.640
You know, it's obviously a voicemail from a butt dial.

544
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.599
But he said he already said there were no voicemails

545
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:44.480
on his phone, so it's just not jiving. They didn't

546
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:47.880
talk and there is no voicemail, yet the phone shows

547
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:50.079
doubt that there was a call. Here's the other caveat.

548
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:54.880
He said he had a four digit passcode on his phone.

549
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:59.400
You know, your phone locks automatically, so to open the phone,

550
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.200
you have to swipe and then either your face can

551
00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:07.599
unlock it or you have to put in the four

552
00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:13.079
digit coat. So now That means that you're having sex

553
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:16.759
with your wife and you accidentally swipe the phone open

554
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:19.759
while you're having sex with your wife, and then you

555
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:22.680
either accidentally had the phone in your face to unlock it,

556
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:26.160
or you accidentally hit a four digit code and then

557
00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:32.400
butt dialed accidentally ATF Higgins. Okay, that's some weird type

558
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:33.880
of sex going on. I don't know what that's about.

559
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:35.519
But he says, oh, we I'll butt dial people a lot.

560
00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:41.960
So he also told them that ATF Higgins the next

561
00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:44.839
morning whenever he saw him after John died, he said,

562
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:48.599
I told him I may have butt dialed you last night.

563
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:54.400
But then again, how would he know that he butt

564
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.440
dialed ATF Brian Higgins if he didn't even know that

565
00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:02.559
he had a missed call from ATF Brian Higgins, Because

566
00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:05.039
you wouldn't see a butt dial, y'all. You wouldn't see

567
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:08.680
an outgoing call on your phone, and then you certainly

568
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:11.279
would have noticed first the red button on a missed

569
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:13.759
call on an iPhone on the phone thing, Are y'all

570
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:15.839
following what I'm saying? I hope so like that. That

571
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:18.960
doesn't make any sense whatsoever. He said when he woke

572
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.440
awoke to jen it was like Jennifer McCabe. He said

573
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:26.240
it was about seven twenty in the morning when when

574
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:29.920
he later called Brian Higgins, and then he said that

575
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:34.440
call lasted about two minutes. So here's another problem with

576
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:37.640
that being said. I told John past episodes, but I'm

577
00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:45.160
gonna remind you Brian Albert's brother, Chris Albert. Okay, he

578
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:50.400
was tight with John. Chris Albert was tight with the

579
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:54.359
dead guy in the front yard, that was his good friend.

580
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:59.680
But yet Brian Albert finds out that John is dead

581
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:04.039
in his front yard and he doesn't call his family.

582
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:08.360
He doesn't call the brother that is tight with the

583
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:11.880
dead man in his front yard, his brother, he doesn't

584
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:19.920
call him. He calls atf Brian Higgins. That is weird

585
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:23.519
to me, first person, I'm calling his family, you know,

586
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:26.599
if something crazy happens. And he says, oh, well, the

587
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:28.679
reason I called him was because we had been all

588
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:31.760
out together the night before and I thought he might

589
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:35.880
want to know, like it's just weird. Maybe you disagree

590
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:38.639
and that's okay, And he says, oh well, all we

591
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:40.639
did was talk about what was going on with John,

592
00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:43.920
and that was about it. But I want to give

593
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.559
you some more phone out of here, and I hope

594
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:49.960
you're following this, okay. After he spoke to him and

595
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:52.360
he says he broke broke it all down and told ATF.

596
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:56.519
Higgins what he knew at that point. Then ATF. Higgins

597
00:34:56.519 --> 00:34:59.960
calls him back a few minutes later and they spoke

598
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:05.320
for five more minutes. Okay, so they must have a

599
00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:10.000
lot to talk about, but then it goes even more Higgins.

600
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:15.280
They hang up. Then Brian Albert calls Higgins again and

601
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:21.719
they speak for twelve minutes, and then Homeowner Albert called

602
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:27.239
his Canton p D detective brother Kevin Albert for about

603
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:37.280
one minute. Then Chief Berkowitz called back to Brian Albert

604
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:42.960
about fifty minutes later, but he missed that call, so

605
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:47.119
Brian then called the chief back five minutes later after

606
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:49.880
he saw it, and they spoke for a few minutes

607
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:54.840
and hung up. Then Homeowner Albert called his sister in

608
00:35:54.920 --> 00:36:01.199
law Jen McCabe at eleven thirty and then Jen called

609
00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:06.519
him back around twelve fifty and they spoke again. And

610
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:13.199
then Brian called Canton PD detective brother Kevin again around

611
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:19.199
two pm and they spoke. Then he called Brian Higgins ATF.

612
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:24.719
Higgins around three twenty for six minutes. Then Brian Albert

613
00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:27.760
called the chief the following day and he spoke to

614
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.679
him about one pm. They spoke for about five minutes.

615
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:35.960
He called Jen again. He then called the chief on

616
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:40.760
February first, and then he continued to speak to ATF

617
00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:44.079
Brian Higgins for a couple of more days after that.

618
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.280
So there certainly are a whole lot of calls between

619
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:52.800
the major players in this case speaking to each other

620
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:57.719
and then speaking to law enforcement, and then speaking back

621
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:00.400
to each other. And I want to remind you again

622
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.880
that Canon p D had already been recused from this case,

623
00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:08.199
so in law Albert as well as ATF Brian Higgins

624
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:12.280
at this point should have been both considered witnesses slash suspects.

625
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:16.639
Yet the chief of police is talking with both of them,

626
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:19.679
and then they are all talking to one another. And

627
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:21.639
I'll get to this further on in a minute, but

628
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:26.079
the evidence in this case was also at Canton PD. Okay,

629
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:28.280
it's being how's there, and that's going to play a

630
00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:31.400
role in another issue whenever I'm speaking about that a

631
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:36.880
little bit later on. So we can pretty much establish

632
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:40.639
that there's some something going amiss here at what I

633
00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:43.559
just told you. So what about Carrie Roberts, the one

634
00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:46.840
who was with Karen and Jim McCabe whenever they found

635
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:51.400
John's body. Well, the very same day that Carrie found

636
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:55.320
John with them, she was interviewed by police at her house.

637
00:37:55.880 --> 00:37:59.519
So Carrie's interviewed right then, but not the other people.

638
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:03.159
That's kind of interesting too. Well, some days later before

639
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:08.119
John's funeral, Jim McCabe called Carrie about meeting up again

640
00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:11.639
at Jim McCabe's house to try to go over a

641
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:15.239
timeline of events to see if they could possibly figure

642
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:19.039
out what happened to John. So Carrie says sure, She

643
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.079
goes over to Jen McCabe's house and they sat together

644
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:24.719
writing out a timeline of events when there was a

645
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:28.000
knock on the door. So to their surprise, it was

646
00:38:28.039 --> 00:38:30.599
two state troopers and they had some questions to ask

647
00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:34.639
in regards to the investigation. But here's the kicker. Two

648
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:39.840
women who found a dead body together were now wait

649
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:45.880
for it, drumroll, please, interviewed as potential witnesses and suspects

650
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:52.960
in the same home, just like whenever the in law

651
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:55.320
Alberts were there, but in a separate room and had

652
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:58.559
no idea what the mccabs were saying. Well, it's kind

653
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:01.360
of like the same thing happened here because they were

654
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:04.760
interviewed in the same home, but in separate rooms. Because

655
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.280
we all know that houses are just completely soundproof once

656
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:11.039
you go from one room to the other. Right, yeah, right, Okay,

657
00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:17.199
So the women who were sitting together trying to, based

658
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:21.480
on what you believe, either understand a timeline or maybe

659
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:26.199
create a timeline. That's up to you to decide. They're together.

660
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:31.199
And I am of the opinion that it was tactical

661
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:35.199
on Jim McCabe's part for her to call carry over

662
00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:38.760
to go over a timeline. I think it was very tactical,

663
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:41.480
and I think that she wanted to put things in

664
00:39:41.559 --> 00:39:44.880
Carrie's head. It's a personal opinion. Obviously you may not agree.

665
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.800
But why do I say this then, Because Carrie at

666
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:52.840
first had told police in that interview that Karen said

667
00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:57.360
I hit him, I hit him, But later on, under

668
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:03.079
intense scrutiny, she admitted that she did not actually hear

669
00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:07.039
Karen Reid say I hit him, I hit him, but

670
00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:12.760
that Jen McCabe had reminded her that Karen said it.

671
00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:18.719
So I find that Carrie was a pawn in all

672
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:21.159
of this from the get go, and she was being

673
00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:25.199
manipulated by Jen McCabe in some fashion. And I'll add

674
00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:28.119
another reason why. I think that while Jen McCabe was

675
00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:31.800
quote in another room as Carrie was being interviewed, and

676
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:33.800
she said, well I couldn't hear what Carrie was saying.

677
00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:36.280
They put me in another room while she was being

678
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:41.840
interviewed by police. Well that would be okay if her

679
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:46.039
text message history didn't say a few things that it said.

680
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:49.920
For instance, while that was going on, there was a

681
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:53.880
group text message that Jen McCabe had and in that

682
00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:58.360
group it was like a family group. Okay, So by family,

683
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:00.320
I mean it's got the mccabs in it, and it's

684
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:04.400
got the in law Albert's in it, and so it's

685
00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:07.760
family in this group. In this group text. Now, I

686
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:09.920
certainly don't want to read to you. I don't. I

687
00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:11.360
know you don't want to be read to. But I

688
00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:14.480
also don't want to infer anything more or less than

689
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:16.239
what was actually said. So I'm going to read you

690
00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:18.679
about six messages. Here we go. So this is the

691
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:21.320
day that John died. Okay, I want to give you

692
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:25.480
perspective here. The day that John died. Jennifer McCabe texted

693
00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:28.679
her sister, Nicole, which is in law Albert Nicole, and

694
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:32.280
she said, Carrie talked to the cops. Kept it simple.

695
00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:37.199
Nicole responded back, Okay, try and get some sleep. We'll

696
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:40.880
talk tomorrow. And then a little while later, Jim McCabe

697
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:45.880
texted her sister again any updates, and her sister responded back,

698
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:50.519
we'll get more information tomorrow. Don't want to text about it.

699
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.159
And then jen said to her sister Nicole, right, and

700
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:58.000
then Nicole said to Jennifer, Okay, text me in the

701
00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:01.000
morning or if you hear anything late. Well, if you,

702
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:06.360
in my opinion, if you didn't want to text about it,

703
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:08.760
that means that you've got stuff you want to say

704
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:11.840
that you don't want anyone to potentially see. Right, And

705
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:15.679
you're married to a detective, so you can decide though.

706
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:18.239
All right. But two days later, in that same groom

707
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:21.320
family group chat that includes the Albert and the mccabes,

708
00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:24.719
this is when it gets interesting to me, all right,

709
00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:27.960
in law Brian sends a message to everyone in the

710
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:31.719
group that says Julie, which is the pizza shop owner

711
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:35.760
Chris Albert's wife. Julie said Channel four is in the

712
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:41.199
pizza shop. Okay, So Julie was there at work or

713
00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:43.280
at the pizza shop, and then told the whole family.

714
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:46.800
You know, oh my god, the media is here from

715
00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:49.960
this point forward. I'm gonna say who's speaking only, but

716
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000
I want you to know that it's to the group. Okay,

717
00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:55.199
So whoever speaking, it's going to the whole group. So

718
00:42:55.239 --> 00:43:00.079
Matt McCabe says, tell Chris, meaning Chris Albert, Pizza Albert owner. Okay,

719
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:03.639
tell Chris to ask some questions. Tell them the guy

720
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:08.519
never went in the house in law Brian Albert exactly.

721
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:14.519
Jen McCabe, omg in law Nicole Albert. I assume they're

722
00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:17.360
there to eat, but if Julie is there, ask her

723
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:19.400
what the deal is? Ask her to ask them what

724
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:24.599
the deal is. Jen McCabe ask if we heard she's

725
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:28.280
in a mental hospital, and then she adds, Carrie is

726
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:32.360
here at my house. To go over the timeline, the

727
00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:36.599
mental hospital is in reference to Karen Reid. Okay, so

728
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:40.840
she wants whoever Julie Albert ask if we've heard that

729
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:44.679
Karen Reid is in a mental hospital, like trying to

730
00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:47.639
allude to the fact she must be crazy and then

731
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.679
tells the group and Carrie is here at my house

732
00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:55.280
to go over the timeline. In law Brian responds, I

733
00:43:55.320 --> 00:44:00.639
did hear that, Jim McCabe. We handed the phone to Carrie.

734
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:07.000
So she's updating the family that investigators have called for

735
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:09.840
whatever reason. And now Carrie's got the phone. Why would

736
00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:12.880
they care? You know, why does that even matter? And

737
00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:17.519
then Jen McCabe says, she's telling him talking about Trooper Proctor.

738
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:22.239
She's telling him everything, all the stuff. I don't know

739
00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:26.119
what that meant, but all the stuff, y'all. Matt McCabe, yep.

740
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:30.559
If she pleads out, it's over. She fights it, It's

741
00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:33.199
gonna be an episode. Who do you think he's talking about?

742
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:38.000
He's talking about Karen Reid in Lonaicle, Albert says, sitting

743
00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:45.199
separate in law Brian. Albert says, okay. Then Jen McCabe says,

744
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:48.000
cops here again, and this is in reference to her

745
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:52.039
being with Carrie at the mccab house. Okay, the cops

746
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:55.800
are here again in Lonaicle, Albert says, call us after

747
00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:58.760
so why are they so interested? You have to ask them?

748
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:01.199
Why are they so interested in everything that Carrie is

749
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:04.519
saying to the cops. It to me sounds like she's

750
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:07.199
been fed information. And I don't think that she's doing

751
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:09.960
it on purpose, but I think that Carrie Roberts was

752
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:13.559
kind of manipulated because she was so traumatized by what happened,

753
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:16.599
and Jen McKay was kind of feeding her information as

754
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:21.360
well as the other Alberts. So Matt McCabe says, this

755
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:24.000
girl could write a book, and he's saying this in

756
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:26.360
reference to Carrie talking to the police. She could write

757
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:31.719
a book. And Jen McCay responds, I love it. She's

758
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:36.400
telling them everything. And she says this because the mccabes

759
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:39.760
could hear the cops talking to Karen, because, like I said,

760
00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:43.079
they were in the same house, but in a different room.

761
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.480
Why would you text that unless you were listening to

762
00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:48.719
what was being said. She was listening to what was

763
00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:53.119
being said in law Nicole Albert says good, and Matt McKay,

764
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:55.960
being snarky, says, we're gonna miss the basketball game at

765
00:45:55.960 --> 00:46:00.519
this rate. It's proof to me that they are all

766
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:03.639
trying to verify the story that's being told and that

767
00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:07.679
they're excited that Carrie Roberts is repeating things that were

768
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:09.960
said to her. I really don't think Carry Roberts is

769
00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:11.920
a bad person. I don't. I think that she just

770
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:14.719
got manipulated and didn't know it. Because there were other

771
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:17.639
times too when they were talking that they pretty much

772
00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:19.880
were kind of doubting her about like she talks a lot,

773
00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:21.679
you know, how she is, so we got to do this,

774
00:46:21.719 --> 00:46:24.320
and that they just didn't seem to respect her the

775
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:26.239
way that I would respect my friends. I wouldn't talk

776
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:31.280
about them like that. Now. I'm not sure if you

777
00:46:31.719 --> 00:46:33.719
agree with what I'm telling you here, but a lot

778
00:46:33.719 --> 00:46:36.559
of people would agree that this is what collusion looks like.

779
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:39.880
Collusion to verify that we're all going to say the

780
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:41.840
same thing. And the fact that they were supposed to

781
00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:43.800
be in that other room yet they were listening and

782
00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:46.559
reporting back to their family members sure does give credence

783
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:50.559
to that thought process too. And it would also become

784
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:56.719
later interesting that Michael Proctor Trooper Proctor interviewed Jim McCabe,

785
00:46:57.519 --> 00:47:01.760
who in that interview, and this is also reflected in

786
00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:04.280
the report that was written at the time about the interview.

787
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:10.599
Jen says that she told Karen the morning that John

788
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:14.800
was missing to come to her house, so it wasn't

789
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:17.159
like Carrie Roberts said, Jen, come over, let's try to

790
00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:20.639
figure out what happened to John. No. Jen McCabe, who's

791
00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:23.639
the sister of where John was found, told Carrie to

792
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:26.000
come to her house so that they could go over

793
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:29.239
a timeline. But her words were actually create a timeline.

794
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:32.480
So she also said in that report that was written

795
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:36.480
that she saw Karen Reid's tail light whenever they left

796
00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:40.599
Karen's vehicle at John's to go look for him, that

797
00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:46.840
she saw Karen's tail light was cracked. Okay, But Jen

798
00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:49.320
McCabe now, when that was brought up to her attention

799
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:51.440
that hey, previously you said you just saw the tail

800
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:57.639
light cracked. Well, she says now that that's not true.

801
00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:00.559
She says both things actually aren't true. She says, I

802
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:03.960
never told Karen to come to my house, which is

803
00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:06.440
what she originally said. She changed her story. And then

804
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:10.920
number two, she said that the tail light was cracked

805
00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:14.400
and it was missing pieces. But that's not what she

806
00:48:14.440 --> 00:48:16.840
originally said in the original report. She just said the

807
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:20.599
tail light was cracked. Now she says that that's not true.

808
00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:23.960
And the thing about it is her story never changed

809
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:29.199
until a little bit after John was found dead. You

810
00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:31.880
know what I'm saying, Like a little while after they

811
00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:36.199
started doing investigating and requestioning things. She also, whenever she

812
00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:39.719
was interviewed the day of John's death, strangely did ask

813
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:44.559
the police, have y'all spoken to Carry yet? Why would

814
00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:47.480
you need to know that? Why would it matter to

815
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:51.280
know if they had spoken to Carry yet? You both

816
00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:53.199
were there when the body was found. Why do you

817
00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:56.480
care if they spoke to Carry yet? Just tell your

818
00:48:56.519 --> 00:49:00.239
story well, knowing what you know now since I've laid

819
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:02.639
it out for you. It was seeming like she was

820
00:49:02.679 --> 00:49:06.400
wanting to make sure her statements aligned with Carrie's if

821
00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:09.039
they had already spoken to her. Otherwise it wouldn't matter

822
00:49:09.400 --> 00:49:12.159
if they had spoken to her or not. So whenever

823
00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.480
the police went to get video from John's home ring camera,

824
00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:20.599
it would serve a great purpose. Most importantly, it would

825
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.880
clear up whether the tail light was just cracked that

826
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:27.440
morning or if it was missing pieces, and they were

827
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:31.400
able to get the video, but they would realize that

828
00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:34.559
they would have some missing footage whenever they went and

829
00:49:34.599 --> 00:49:38.840
they got the video from from John's ring camera. So

830
00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:41.920
the footage that was missing was from eleven thirty the

831
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:46.519
night before. For a couple of hours, so the camera

832
00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:50.480
did though show at five am the morning John was

833
00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:53.599
realized to be missing. When Karen backed out of the house,

834
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:59.280
she actually bumped John's car that was on video. And

835
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:03.360
still this day, no one's really clarified what happened or

836
00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:06.920
why that section of tape was mysteriously missing. But I

837
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:09.199
don't know that anything happened in that timeframe that would

838
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:11.199
matter anyway. I mean, we know that she went home,

839
00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:12.639
and I'll tell you why in a minute, and we

840
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:14.679
know that when she left it was called on camera.

841
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:19.360
So it was brought up to the police that Karen

842
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:23.519
had stopped by the house the evening after John died

843
00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:28.760
to see the kids, meaning his kids, and went upstairs

844
00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:31.760
with her dad for about fifteen minutes. So John was

845
00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:36.119
pronounced dead Later that evening, Karen was released from the

846
00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:40.239
hospital and then her dad drove her to John's house

847
00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:43.679
where everybody had collected to kind of grieve and whatever,

848
00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:47.719
and she wanted to go see the kids chuckle down,

849
00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:50.440
and she and her dad went upstairs for about fifteen minutes.

850
00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:54.000
So the question kind of became, was it possible that

851
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:56.679
maybe Karen deleted video that would show her tail light

852
00:50:56.800 --> 00:51:00.159
was shattered, and then she might have gotten home at

853
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:02.480
a different time than originally stated, which would have given

854
00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:04.280
her more room to have hit him with the car.

855
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:07.079
These questions came about because why would there be missing footage.

856
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:11.119
That's weird. Well, this would be answered soon enough because

857
00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:17.039
Karen had left some unsavory voice messages or for John

858
00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:20.480
after she left the in law Albert's home that night,

859
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:25.679
and included in those was an accidental voicemail that was

860
00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:28.880
left on John's phone, and it would become important. Karen's

861
00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:31.480
not talking or anything, but what you can hear in

862
00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:34.880
the background is really telling about what's going on. It's

863
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:38.280
clear that Karen was home at the time she claimed

864
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:42.280
to be home at John's house because the voicemail that

865
00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:46.119
was left accidentally. You can hear the sounds of her

866
00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:50.679
car pulling into the garage. You can hear her door open.

867
00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:53.079
You can hear that beeping of a car, you know

868
00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:56.159
in open door. You can hear that. Then you can

869
00:51:56.199 --> 00:52:00.400
hear her heels clanking on the ground in rapid fashion

870
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:03.199
as she's approaching the house and she's walking. This is

871
00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:07.840
a very very obvious sound when you hear a voicemail

872
00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:09.679
like the voicemail like this. It's something we all can

873
00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:12.679
tell what's going on when you hear it. And if

874
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:16.079
that footage was deleted by Karen, which I personally don't believe,

875
00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:20.239
her timeline was still solid because of that accidental voicemail

876
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:22.360
that she left and the fact that her cell phone

877
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:26.360
connected to John's WiFi at the exact same time. Okay,

878
00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:28.360
So that is why I came to the conclusion that

879
00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:32.000
I don't really buy that Karen would have deleted any

880
00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:37.119
any footage. So I want to go through the events

881
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:38.960
of the voicemails too, and I'm going to play them

882
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:42.719
for you as I explain them for you. But they

883
00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:46.320
are very tough to hear. They are very poor quality,

884
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:48.639
so you're going to have to listen, and I acknowledge

885
00:52:48.639 --> 00:52:51.960
to you that they're not the best quality. So after

886
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:55.440
Karen left the in law Albert residence, she says she

887
00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:58.119
dropped John off there in whatever condition at this point,

888
00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.159
you believe that he was in, you believe that right now,

889
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:03.719
And she said she called him back to back to back.

890
00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:06.119
I think y'all in total, it was like fifty three

891
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:07.840
calls or something like that, Like this was a lot

892
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:12.519
of calls, Okay. Karen called John, I'm gonna break them

893
00:53:12.519 --> 00:53:16.320
all down for you. So Karen leaves John at the house.

894
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:20.199
She called John seven times and he did not answer

895
00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:22.199
the phone at all, in rapid pace. She called seven

896
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:31.519
times before she left her first voicemail. Okay, And as

897
00:53:31.519 --> 00:53:35.599
I mentioned, that voicemail was left at twelve thirty six am,

898
00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:39.840
and she was connected to John's WiFi by this point

899
00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:43.159
that I mentioned to you earlier. So there's no way

900
00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:44.639
she was still at the in law Albert's house, is

901
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:45.679
what I'm trying to tell you. She had to be

902
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:48.440
at John's when that happened. Over the next two minutes

903
00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:53.239
after that voicemail, she called John four more times, back

904
00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:55.840
to back, and again he did not answer. And that's

905
00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:58.679
when she left the second voicemail, which is the one

906
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:01.320
where you're gonna hear her walking and getting out of

907
00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:03.840
the car. But I don't want you to just believe me.

908
00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:05.760
I'm going to play it for you now. I want

909
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:07.400
you to make your own assessment and see if you

910
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:09.639
hear the same thing that I'm hearing and you think

911
00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:49.960
it's the same thing. Okay. Now, after that voicemail, she

912
00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:54.199
texts him, I'm going home. This is at twelve fifty five,

913
00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:59.039
almost one am. She then calls him more times, a

914
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:02.360
couple more times, and then at twelve fifty nine she

915
00:55:02.480 --> 00:55:06.800
leaves another voicemail and she is pissed with a capital

916
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.400
P when she leaves this one. Go ahead and listen

917
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:13.800
to that one, John, I'm here with you a fucking kid, Jill,

918
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:19.239
please Jose for the funky white, sucky herder. After that,

919
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:22.800
she seems to accidentally leave another voicemail, but it records

920
00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:27.280
only these these background noises and there's no words to it.

921
00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:29.320
It's not something I'm going to play here because you're

922
00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:31.360
going to think there's something wrong with my audio because

923
00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:35.320
it's literally just like silence and like some noises. And

924
00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:37.079
either way, I just want you to know there was

925
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:40.039
another voicemail that was left. She then texted him at

926
00:55:40.079 --> 00:55:42.360
one oh two am, and it said quote your kids

927
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:46.480
are fucking alone. End quote. Two minutes later, she texted

928
00:55:46.519 --> 00:55:50.159
him quote I'm back in Mansfield. Your kids are home alone.

929
00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:53.000
Now we obviously know that that's not true, y'all, because

930
00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:56.199
she was pat you know, she was just pissed off,

931
00:55:56.280 --> 00:55:57.719
and she was clearly trying to get him to call

932
00:55:57.719 --> 00:56:00.119
her back, and she had connected to John's WiFi. She

933
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:01.280
was just trying to get him to call her back.

934
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:04.880
Then at one ten she leaves her fifth voicemail, go

935
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:09.239
ahead and give this one a listen one in the morning.

936
00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:13.360
But this fucking needs to fu you fucking fer You're

937
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:19.599
fucking okay. From one ten am to one sixteen am,

938
00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:23.239
she calls eight more times, and again they go unanswered,

939
00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:28.559
and then she called at one seventeen, leaving voicemail number six.

940
00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:30.400
You can go ahead and listen to that one.

941
00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:33.800
Now John's from going call. I cannot be to any

942
00:56:34.159 --> 00:56:34.880
ends to go home.

943
00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:37.880
You You are fucking using me right now. You're fucking

944
00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:40.480
as a girl. He's freaking next to me.

945
00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:44.079
You're fucking bolder blast itself.

946
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:47.920
After that one, she does call one more time, which

947
00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:51.159
he doesn't answer, and this is when Karen said about

948
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:53.760
that same time. She doesn't mention necessarily all these voicemails

949
00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:56.639
and things, but she does tell investigators that she dozed

950
00:56:56.679 --> 00:56:59.719
off or she must have fallen asleep, which seems to

951
00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:02.159
be fired because she does not call his phone again

952
00:57:02.800 --> 00:57:06.440
until four thirty eight AM, So some hours go by,

953
00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:11.159
and when she starts calling, she calls four times between

954
00:57:11.199 --> 00:57:14.239
four thirty eight and five twenty one am. Those go unanswered,

955
00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:18.559
and then she leaves her seventh voicemail at five twenty

956
00:57:18.599 --> 00:57:21.280
three am. And you can tell in this one there's

957
00:57:21.320 --> 00:57:24.840
been a shift. She's very upset, almost in a scared way,

958
00:57:24.920 --> 00:57:32.760
not an angry way. So listen to this one. After

959
00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:37.519
that voicemail, she calls him eleven more times. And I

960
00:57:37.639 --> 00:57:39.920
know right now you're like, damn, Kelly, how many freaking

961
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:42.119
phone calls? Hey, I didn't do it. I'm just here

962
00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:44.239
to tell you what happened. She blowed him the fuck

963
00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:47.480
up on this phone, all right, But she called in

964
00:57:47.559 --> 00:57:50.440
between five twenty four and five thirty six am before

965
00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:53.360
she left her eighth voicemail. But this one, again was

966
00:57:53.400 --> 00:57:56.360
an accidental voicemail. Well how do I know that? Because

967
00:57:56.400 --> 00:57:59.519
this is the time around when they found John the

968
00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:04.000
three win and that voicemail, which is really long, okay,

969
00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:09.079
it actually recorded that situation as it unfolded, and again,

970
00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:13.480
very very hard to hear. But there's points where you

971
00:58:13.559 --> 00:58:18.920
hear Karen screaming just I mean screaming, and then there's

972
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:21.360
times where there's breaks and you hear like the this

973
00:58:21.559 --> 00:58:24.480
noise doom dun doom, dum, doom doom and I was like,

974
00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:26.199
listen to it over and over, couldn't figure it out.

975
00:58:26.199 --> 00:58:29.039
And then finally I realized that's the damn Winschell wipers

976
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:30.920
from the from the car going back and forth after

977
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:32.760
you know, they got out. I won't lie. It took

978
00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:35.159
me a minute, but I think I figured that out

979
00:58:35.199 --> 00:58:37.559
to be what it is. And then after you hear

980
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:41.320
the Winchell wipers, you hear parts of Jen McCabe whenever

981
00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:43.880
she made that call to nine one one. Now I'm

982
00:58:43.880 --> 00:58:47.960
gonna tell you I've shortened this call this voicemail because

983
00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:51.800
I want you to hear something. It's just a lot

984
00:58:51.800 --> 00:58:54.559
of silence, a lot of windshell wipers going back and forth.

985
00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:56.880
It's so long that it would literally you would lose interest.

986
00:58:57.199 --> 00:58:59.239
So I'm just gonna give you a certain snippet of

987
00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:01.679
it where you can hear a lot that is happening

988
00:59:02.119 --> 00:59:05.039
and you can kind of get a feel for how

989
00:59:05.119 --> 00:59:06.119
Karen was behaving.

990
00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:59.719
So listen to this one.

991
01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:25.440
Sorry, I know I know that. Sorry, I mean, I'm

992
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:32.280
not so if. I'm just gonna be completely out there

993
01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:33.760
with you and you'll know that's how I am. I

994
01:00:33.800 --> 01:00:36.000
know I've been kind of snotty so far about not

995
01:00:36.119 --> 01:00:39.679
believing in law Brian Albert and at F. Higgins whenever

996
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:42.960
there's these accidental butt dials back and forth. Okay, But

997
01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:47.039
the difference between their claims of butt dialing and Karen

998
01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:50.519
Reid's butt dials is that she admits that she was

999
01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:54.800
on her phone, and she obviously had her phone open,

1000
01:00:55.719 --> 01:00:59.000
And it makes sense to me that you would accidentally

1001
01:00:59.039 --> 01:01:04.239
butt dial or dial again or hit call again, redial

1002
01:01:04.599 --> 01:01:07.639
when the phone is open and you have been chronically

1003
01:01:08.239 --> 01:01:11.679
trying to call somebody. Also, you know she was drunk,

1004
01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:15.320
and I think it's completely believable when you've called someone

1005
01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:17.480
in the range of fifty seven times that you might

1006
01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:20.000
dial them and not realize it while you're drunk and

1007
01:01:20.079 --> 01:01:22.840
you leave a voicemail. But the point is there's voicemails.

1008
01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:25.679
There's voicemails as to what was going on. The in

1009
01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:27.719
law Alberts and ATF. Higgins want us to believe that

1010
01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:31.599
they accidentally but dialed each other although they weren't actually

1011
01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:34.679
on their phones at that time. There's a big difference there.

1012
01:01:34.719 --> 01:01:36.800
And I just don't believe the men. I don't believe

1013
01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:40.280
what they're saying happened. So listening to Karen's voicemails. You

1014
01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:42.360
would be hard pressed to believe that she was not

1015
01:01:42.519 --> 01:01:45.440
mad at John and they weren't fighting when she dropped

1016
01:01:45.519 --> 01:01:48.199
him off at the house. Clearly that she was mad.

1017
01:01:48.400 --> 01:01:51.519
She was big mad. Okay, she was mad from the

1018
01:01:51.599 --> 01:01:54.280
second that she left, and not believe that firmly. I

1019
01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:56.760
believe that because of the voicemails and the fact she

1020
01:01:56.840 --> 01:01:59.360
admitted that they were fighting in the car before she

1021
01:01:59.480 --> 01:02:02.679
drove off. And I mentioned last episode about some Google

1022
01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:06.400
searches that magically changed timestamps. So I want to take

1023
01:02:06.400 --> 01:02:08.519
a minute to address this. But this is going to

1024
01:02:08.599 --> 01:02:12.760
require us looking further into miss Jennifer McCabe herself, the

1025
01:02:12.880 --> 01:02:17.719
name I've said a million times. When Jennifer McCabe was interviewed,

1026
01:02:18.400 --> 01:02:21.639
much of what she said originally aligned with the other

1027
01:02:22.159 --> 01:02:26.079
in law Alberts. Remember in law Albert Nicole. That's her sister,

1028
01:02:26.199 --> 01:02:28.880
the homeowner of the house where John was found. So

1029
01:02:28.920 --> 01:02:32.599
starting the day that John died, when Jen's phone was

1030
01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:35.880
taken and reviewed by police, it would be realized that

1031
01:02:35.960 --> 01:02:40.840
there was a very interesting Google search made on that phone.

1032
01:02:40.880 --> 01:02:44.119
She never mentioned it either. It was spelled wrong, So

1033
01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:46.760
I'm going to say it correct after I tell you

1034
01:02:46.760 --> 01:02:50.519
what it said here, It said has long to die

1035
01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:53.360
in the cold, meaning how long to die in the cold,

1036
01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:57.000
And considering all the suspicious activity to this point, it

1037
01:02:57.119 --> 01:03:00.519
sure does seem to be odd, right. I'd also like

1038
01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:04.920
to point out it wasn't readily in her search history either,

1039
01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:08.840
because it was actually a deleted search. So why would

1040
01:03:08.840 --> 01:03:11.719
you delete this search? That's obviously going to be a

1041
01:03:11.800 --> 01:03:14.639
question everyone's going to ask themselves. And I'm not getting

1042
01:03:14.679 --> 01:03:17.119
into the science of it here. That's what the court

1043
01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:20.159
case was for. It's technical and all of that. So

1044
01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:23.079
what I'm gonna do is tell you that this whole

1045
01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:26.320
situation became an argument in and of itself, she claimed.

1046
01:03:27.199 --> 01:03:31.000
Jim McCabe claimed she never deleted that search, but the

1047
01:03:31.119 --> 01:03:34.840
data showed it was deleted. Experts weighed in on this,

1048
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:38.440
and both experts disagreed on the meaning of it. One

1049
01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:41.199
said she deleted. Well, they actually they disagreed on the

1050
01:03:41.239 --> 01:03:45.679
meaning of the word deleted. Okay. One said she deleted

1051
01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:47.760
it like she manually went in and she deleted it.

1052
01:03:48.239 --> 01:03:51.760
The other experts said, no, she didn't deleted, just means

1053
01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:58.440
she closed out a tab that was open well the

1054
01:03:58.519 --> 01:04:01.199
time that she made the search, which then also becomes

1055
01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:05.119
an argument. The phone showed that she made this search

1056
01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:09.599
at two am. Conveniently, just to point out, that's about

1057
01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:14.320
the time right before Brian Higgins atf Brian Higgins and

1058
01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:16.800
in law Brian Albert were making that butt doll call

1059
01:04:16.840 --> 01:04:20.239
back and forth to each other. It's like right before that. Okay,

1060
01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:25.599
Jen said, no, no, no, I did search that, but

1061
01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:28.639
I only searched that after we found John's body because

1062
01:04:28.679 --> 01:04:32.920
Karen asked me to search it. The phone shows that

1063
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:36.920
she was using it and searching a sports website at

1064
01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:42.480
two twenty seven am. So one expert said, what happened

1065
01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:46.000
was that sports website was open, and then when she

1066
01:04:46.079 --> 01:04:48.639
went to go search how long to die in the cold,

1067
01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:52.840
she just reused that sports page that was up search

1068
01:04:53.239 --> 01:04:54.719
And that's why it looks like she did it at

1069
01:04:54.719 --> 01:04:58.000
two twenty seven am, but really it was done at

1070
01:04:58.039 --> 01:05:02.599
six point twenty two am the phone. So the reason

1071
01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:04.840
they came up with that too was that at six

1072
01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:07.880
twenty two in the morning, the data on the phone

1073
01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:12.079
showed a suggested search came up from like predictive text

1074
01:05:12.159 --> 01:05:15.000
whenever you're trying to search something, and it said the

1075
01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:18.639
predictive text came up how long to digest food? But

1076
01:05:18.760 --> 01:05:22.800
the user who searched it ignored that suggestion. So if

1077
01:05:22.800 --> 01:05:25.800
she ignored that suggestion, that would mean she was actively

1078
01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:28.480
on like looking at the phone, using it at that

1079
01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:32.199
moment and then typing in the how long to die

1080
01:05:32.280 --> 01:05:34.760
in the cold. So you have to decide do you

1081
01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:37.079
think that she did it at two am or do

1082
01:05:37.119 --> 01:05:39.320
you think that she did it at six twenty two am.

1083
01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:43.280
I'm gonna let you decide. The predictive text explanation for

1084
01:05:43.360 --> 01:05:46.679
experts did seem legit to me, and the fact that

1085
01:05:46.719 --> 01:05:49.639
it had to be manually ignored wasn't something that I

1086
01:05:49.679 --> 01:05:52.599
think in the moment she would be forward thinking about

1087
01:05:52.639 --> 01:05:56.239
if searching this for devious reasons, like if John had

1088
01:05:56.239 --> 01:05:58.079
gotten hurt in at their hands and then they searched it.

1089
01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:03.199
So while this is understand what isn't understandable is the

1090
01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:06.119
fact that she had also deleted some phone calls that

1091
01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:11.400
were deleted. So at twelve fourteen, she spoke to John voice,

1092
01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:14.159
spoke to John on the phone, twelve eighteen, she spoke

1093
01:06:14.199 --> 01:06:18.320
to him again. At twelve twenty nine, she called John

1094
01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:22.800
and he didn't answer, but she deleted that call. At

1095
01:06:22.840 --> 01:06:26.400
twelve forty one, she called John, he didn't answer. She

1096
01:06:26.559 --> 01:06:30.800
deleted that call. At twelve forty three, she called John,

1097
01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:35.679
it was unanswered. She deleted that call. So the argument

1098
01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:39.960
became they, as in the defense, started going, wait a minute,

1099
01:06:40.280 --> 01:06:42.400
this is about the time that John was believed to

1100
01:06:42.440 --> 01:06:46.639
have been killed in whatever killed him. So she called

1101
01:06:46.719 --> 01:06:50.599
him again at twelve forty seven, John didn't answer. She

1102
01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:54.159
deleted that, And at twelve fifty she called John, he

1103
01:06:54.239 --> 01:06:58.360
did not answer. She deleted that. So the defense started going,

1104
01:06:58.400 --> 01:07:02.199
wait a minute, she's kind of calling him through this timeframe,

1105
01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:05.840
John's already medically, you know, based on the evidence, believed

1106
01:07:05.840 --> 01:07:09.360
to be dead. Well, if you misplace a phone, or

1107
01:07:09.400 --> 01:07:11.440
you're trying to find somebody's phone, what do you do

1108
01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:13.920
when you're trying to find that phone, You ask somebody

1109
01:07:13.920 --> 01:07:15.800
to call it and they kind of chronic call it

1110
01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:20.400
until they're able to locate it. Well, when Jen was asked, okay, well,

1111
01:07:20.440 --> 01:07:22.159
why did you delete these calls or what are these

1112
01:07:22.199 --> 01:07:26.159
calls about, she says, Oh, those were butt dials. So

1113
01:07:27.239 --> 01:07:32.159
you butt dialed John six times in nineteen minutes. That

1114
01:07:32.280 --> 01:07:35.920
seems weird. And then if you butt dialed him, why'd

1115
01:07:35.960 --> 01:07:41.239
you delete them? Who goes in and deletes calls, especially

1116
01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:45.199
butt dials. The only reason that it was discovered all

1117
01:07:45.239 --> 01:07:48.000
of these calls had happened to wasn't because of Jen

1118
01:07:48.119 --> 01:07:51.119
McCabe's phone. You know where it was actually discovered in

1119
01:07:51.320 --> 01:07:55.639
John's phone. John's phone showed in a forensic audit that

1120
01:07:55.719 --> 01:07:57.239
all of those calls have been made. Then when they

1121
01:07:57.239 --> 01:07:59.920
went and looked at Jen's phone, that's when they realized

1122
01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:03.519
she's been deleting calls. So the only reason I can

1123
01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:05.559
think to delete a call would be to hide it.

1124
01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:07.280
I don't know any other reason of why you would

1125
01:08:07.280 --> 01:08:11.599
need to delete a call. Okay, So when would all

1126
01:08:11.639 --> 01:08:14.960
of these deletions have taken place? Well, I'm glad you asked.

1127
01:08:16.039 --> 01:08:20.640
It would have had to have occurred between January twenty ninth,

1128
01:08:20.680 --> 01:08:24.600
when John was found dead and February second, because that's

1129
01:08:24.600 --> 01:08:27.359
when her phone was taken and looked at. Again. I

1130
01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:30.920
just want to say this, I don't delete phone calls

1131
01:08:31.239 --> 01:08:33.479
unless there would be a reason to delete a phone call,

1132
01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:35.039
which only reason I would think you would do it

1133
01:08:35.039 --> 01:08:36.720
would be so no one saw it. No one else

1134
01:08:36.840 --> 01:08:38.479
is looking at no one's looking in your phone. Why

1135
01:08:38.479 --> 01:08:40.039
would you delete a call? Why do you care? You

1136
01:08:40.079 --> 01:08:44.159
know what happened and the voicemails. Okay, I delete voicemails.

1137
01:08:44.199 --> 01:08:46.000
I'll give you that I do because it gets full.

1138
01:08:46.960 --> 01:08:50.560
But I don't delete voicemails until it's full, so that's

1139
01:08:50.600 --> 01:08:52.479
the only thing I delete. Now, you might be having

1140
01:08:52.520 --> 01:08:54.520
a reason you delete calls. I don't know. But we

1141
01:08:54.600 --> 01:08:56.920
all are going to view things and evidence through our

1142
01:08:56.920 --> 01:08:59.600
own personal lens and our own personal experiences, and that's

1143
01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:02.560
all I have personally to weigh against this. I've been

1144
01:09:02.600 --> 01:09:04.760
talking to you for over an hour, and we've got

1145
01:09:05.439 --> 01:09:08.119
everybody in their Mama lion. We don't know who's telling

1146
01:09:08.159 --> 01:09:11.399
the truth. We've got deleted messages, we've got voicemails, we've

1147
01:09:11.399 --> 01:09:15.359
got everything going on, and I still have another hour

1148
01:09:15.560 --> 01:09:19.119
plus of stuff to give you that I cannot skip on.

1149
01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:25.239
So guaranteed, without question, next episode will be the final

1150
01:09:25.279 --> 01:09:29.680
episode where I wrap it up in this Karen Reid series.

1151
01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:31.279
I guess we'll just have to hang on the fact

1152
01:09:31.319 --> 01:09:33.680
that nobody really seems to remember what they said until

1153
01:09:33.680 --> 01:09:36.479
they're faced with someone pressing play on the voicemails, and

1154
01:09:36.520 --> 01:09:38.239
it's going to be really hard for these people to

1155
01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:40.399
try to clear things up. When everyone's neck deep in

1156
01:09:40.439 --> 01:09:41.159
their own bullshit,