Part Four | Did She Do it: The Investigation Into Karen Read

0:06 Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell stories of real crimes with real victims, whose cases are so shocking that many are left wondering how is this even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections, and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator, dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so evil many feel they are unspeakable. Warning, Unspeakable as intended for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey y'all, it's kJ back with another episode of Unspeakable. I know y'all have been rocking with me through this Karen Reid case that has to do with John O'Keefe. So hopefully by now you realize that there's a whole lot of players.

1:09 I know, I keep saying that you should be pretty much having a grasp of who these major players are and how they're related. So if you're unsure, or if you like faces, maybe you're someone who likes to put faces to the people, so you can help follow along. On Patreon, I have posted a breakdown with faces so that you can look at these people and you can kind of assess what's going on, along with a million other things, crime scene photos and whatnot. So that's for your convenience and your understanding if you want it. If not, don't look at it. Doesn't bother me. But I want to warn you before I start here that this is a part four. So if you have not listened to parts one, two, and three, this one's not gonna make sense. So please go back listen to one through three and then jump in right here with us on part four.

1:51 So now that I'm approaching this, this wrap up of this of this series, I got to thinking about baseball. Okay, And I know you're like, what why I should think of baseball? Well, if you're not a fan of baseball, no worries. The point I'm gonna make is still it's still going to resonate, I think because now in our age of instant replays in sports, Okay, a coach can contest a call if they think the officials got that call wrong. But here's the thing. Whenever they're trying to see if they're going to overturn a call that's been made, there has to be overwhelming evidence that the call that was made was wrong. It's got to be overwhelmingly clear.

2:33 It's not that they could have got it wrong. It's that it's overwhelmingly clear that that call was wrong. The runner that was called out at first base, if it's a close call, when they go look at that instant replay, you have to clearly see the runner's foot touch the bag right before the glove closes of the first basement. The problem with a lot of what I'm going to be talking about in this portion of the series is that we don't have the vantage point to prove one hundred percent without a shadow of a doubt that what is being seen on video necessarily dictates the argument of what's being claimed to be happening. So it's just not going to be as clear as what I'm trying to tell you. You're gonna have to be the person that decides while you're listening to this which you most agree with.

3:22 I'll kind of present you sometimes with two options, and i want you, as the listener to decide, because it's not going to be crystal clear, overwhelming like a sports replay. Okay, so you have a job to do while you're listening. So I've spoken a bit about the inconsistencies of whether ATF Brian Higgins was at the in law Albert's home the morning the in law Alberts and the mccabs were being interviewed by Sergeant lank Well, it would really matter, Okay. I made a point to say that that timeline, no one was actually quite clear on what was actually happening specifically, and it would really matter with respect to the fact that it was discovered that ATF Higgins was on camera as having gone to the Canton PD in the wee early morning hours of John's death. So here's the argument that's coming your way. Basically, someone or something or somehow John O'Keefe had to be hurt before one am. That's clear and convincing that that has to be the case.

4:30 So the question is really was it Karen that she hit him? Was it ATF Higgins? Was it in law Brian Albert? Even Colin Albert, which is Pizza Albert's son. But I'm not going to go in depth on Colin because look, he was seventeen. If you've been following this case for a while, you know that he was brought up a lot, but he was seventeen whenever that happened. Plus, I'm gonna tell you that text messages, in my opinion, vouched for Colin not being a part of what happened to John real quick to get it out of the way. There were texts between Colin Albert and his cousin which have been would have been Ali McCabe, and he was asking Ali if she was going to come pick him up and bring him home, and those were provided to police.

5:19 Police looked at those and at eleven fifty four he said to her, you can get me now if it's easier, and she said, I'm driving people home right now, and he said, word get me after And then at twelve ten, Ali wrote here and he answered her and said okay. So I know kids, I know teenagers, and he's not going to say okay and then not go to the car, especially when he was waiting on her. I don't think it's plausible that he was, you know, like fighting with John or something and then went to the car randomly and she didn't see anything. And I just, I personally am not behind the whole theory that some people say that maybe Colin got in a fight with John. So I just I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it now. Karen said she didn't hit him and she was gone by then, and this is verified according to the GPS in her vehicle, combined with the fact that her cell phone connected to John's home WiFi shortly thereafter. So the time that they're trying to say that the state is trying to say that Karen would have hit him, it kind of doesn't give much time, okay, because of what I just told you. So remember the the flirty texts between Karen and ATF Higgins that I mentioned last episode, and the fact that she had kissed him once. Well, Karen told ATF. Higgins that John suspected that something might be going on between them, and she said that John had even showed her at one point

6:49 ring camera footage from whenever she walked ATF. Higgins out of the house when he had come over one time. So that's under did that that happened, and Karen wouldn't have a reason to lie about that because it doesn't look good for her in my assessment of these things. So the defense was starting to think that maybe at F. Higgins may have hurt John after possibly confronting John, or John confronting him about his interactions with Karen. And then it all boiled over that night after Karen dropped him off.

7:31 So that now begs some questions about at F. Higgins's actions the night of John's death. Number one, why on earth when they found this out, would you go to your law enforcement place of work at one a m. After an admittedly heavy, heavy night of drinking. That sounds dumb as shit If I'm being brutally honest, okay, like by total luck and probably divine intervention. Okay, I'll be honest. I'm married to a man that is sober and he doesn't drink. Thus, I personally have my own designated driver because this heifer ain't drive in even after one drink.

8:16 I'm not gonna do it. Why Because it's not worth it to me. I have too much to lose and I don't want to risk other people's lives, So I don't drink and drive. And now here we have a police officer pounding drinks and then going to work when he's not even on duty, nor is it even his honestly his like place of legit business that he works for. He just has an office there because he's friends with the chief. So what could possibly be that urgent that you would even do this after a night of heavy drinking. It doesn't really jibe that you would do that. And then the other question becomes where exactly did he go and why did he go there? All this kind of seems pretty curious. So here's a breakdown of that for you ATF. Higgins because a lot of this is called on camera. ATF. Higgins is seen arriving at the Canton PD at roughly one o'clock in the morning. He wasn't there long either, y'all. He left after like thirty minutes or so. So when he was asked initially why did you go to Canton PD at one am? He said, he went to quote, fulfill some administrative duties. That's when they originally asked him. And so it's kind of like when you were blitzed from a night of drinking. Knofam, I'm not buying that. That doesn't that's stupid. Who would do that? So when more detailed, pointed questions were again sent his way, then he got a lot more specific.

9:49 He said, well, I was moving some vehicles at the PD because the chief had requested it before he had gotten on to me. Because of where I parked my vehicle that the plows, the snow plows were not able to make it through that parking lot if I parked on the outer spots of the parking lot. So you do see him on camera. He arrives in his jeep and he parks. You see him go into the building. He goes down a hall, he enters for a few minutes into a side room that doesn't have cameras, and then he goes back out to the vehicles in the parking lot. So the question was like, well, what are you doing in the room. It wasn't quite clear. He says he was getting the keys to those other vehicles because he left them on his desk, so other people, if they needed the keys, could move the car. So I mean, that's absolutely plausible. But he had already been there earlier. If you remember, I told you he and in law Brian Albert went to that funeral in New York and then they came back. They went back to the police station, and he acknowledged, yeah, we went to the Canton Pede. I went there and I got my personal jeep and I dropped the work truck. So then it's like, okay, well why didn't you move them when you were there, like you knew a blizzard was coming in, and you were already there. Why didn't you move them then before going out for a night of drinking and then come back at one am in the morning to move them when you had already been there and it was out of your way. And he would argue, because it's been a long day. It was a long, hard day.

11:20 I wanted to go out, I was hungry, I was ready to go relax and have some drinks, and I didn't want to move the cars again. Okay, So this is where my personal issues are raised with that statement. If you left the keys on the desk so that the cars could be moved if someone needed to, then they could have moved them. He didn't need to go the whole reason he left the keys there. And the other issue I have is that he never went back into the building to return the keys back into the building. So if you had to go there to get the keys, then it seems to me that you would move the cars and then put the keys back, because those aren't your cars, those are the state's cars. But he never even went and put the So the other thing is when I go back and I'm watching the video, He never moved any cars. He went out and he got some items from his work truck. He put those items into his personal vehicles, but cars never moved. And so I thought maybe I was tripping when I first watched the video, like what did I miss? But I'm not.

12:22 He did not move any cars. So this is something that the average Joe would not know, but I'm gonna bring it up for you because I want you to know about it. And it's a thing called a Faraday bag. Do you know about those? If you're in law enforcement, you might know about him. If not, it might be new to you, but it's super important for an investigator, which ATF Higgins is alcohol, tobacco on firearms investigator. Okay, this would be something that he had. So in brevity, these are bags that are carried and I would say a standard practice by anybody that's an investigative level. And what they're for is that they maintain electronic devices by making it impossible for the phones to be accessed other ways, Like they can't access a wireless signal, so like cellular, Wi Fi, Bluetooth, it blocks all of that, so the phone can't access that. Why would that need to happen well thieves or accomplices in a crime that might involve some type of electronic they can potentially remotely wipe data from a device, and Faraday bags are used to prevent this from happening, and they ensure the integrity of digital evidence.

13:35 But they also are a weird thing to put in your personal vehicle, Like, why would you do that? If that even happened. I can't tell you exactly what he transferred, but I can tell you it wasn't a huge bag, but it also wasn't a ten ninety bag, so like, maybe he wanted to put that in his get, but why Well then it's like, well, wait a minute, maybe he put his own phone in it, maybe so that people wouldn't know his identity of where he was his whereabouts later on. It's just kind of a working theory. And it was also suggested that maybe he wasn't just getting a large Duffel bagasse it looks like it does look like a large Duffel bag, but some people say that's not a Duffel bag, that's a breakdown spineboard bag.

14:25 So I looked into that. I don't personally think that bag looks like that, but it was brought up either way, No one really knows what exactly he was transferring that night, regardless, he never moves any cars and he gets in his jeep and he drives away. But there's other purposes that he might could have gone there, assuming maybe something did happen to John at that house, and that's kind of the avenue we're going down here. He would have access to the dispatch nine when one center because he had to walk past it. He did I'll tell you, I'll tell you this. He did say that he didn't go in nine one one, But then at one point it was said that he opened the door and just said hey and waved and said hello, and then he left. Well, if he waved and he said hello, that's actually kind of a big deal, because do y'all remember from the previous episode who I told you was working in the nine one one center that night? It was Sergeant Good.

15:22 Sergeant Good was the man who called Sergeant Lank to respond to John's body. Five hours after Higgins stopped by the office to move cars that he didn't actually move. He was questioned and he said, oh, yeah, I did see ATF Higgins when he got to the station early that morning, and he said, I really wasn't sure why he was there. He wasn't on duty and we didn't call him in for anything, so I don't know why he was there, but I did see him there. So the question kind of became, well, wait a minute, is it possible that Higgins stopped by to see if nine one one had already gotten a call about something that happened at that thirty four Fairview? Maybe just assessing to see if he had time to go back to Fairview to maybe move John's body or something of that nature if he had been involved in it. Because again, there's a lot of unknowns at this point, but it sure did seem plausible. Also, the entire time that he was at Canton p D. He was on the phone a majority of that time with somebody, And are you curious as to who he was talking to? I was, who are you talking to at one o'clock in the morning at Canton ped what? Maybe it was in law Brian Albert?

16:43 They what if something happened and they're talking to each other. What if he went in waved hello just to see if they're like, damn, man, you know John got hit or something like that. But when that didn't happen, they knew the call hadn't come in yet. Well, I wanted to know, and maybe you want to know too. Maybe you're like, well, who was he on the phone with? Let's find out. Well, that will never happen because ATF Higgins got rid of his cell phone. After that happened. How did this go on? I don't mean that night he tossed it. Follow me ATF. Higgins said he met with state Trooper Proctor and Trooper Buchanic. Buchanic was Procter's supervisor on February third. That was just a couple days after John died. He died on the twenty ninth. He provided his text messages to the state police. They had not requested them. He volunteered them. Here you can. You can have these text messages since I was there that night.

17:45 But there was something that ATF Higgins did not mention about when he gave those messages up to the state. He didn't mention that he accessed special ATF software to extra information from his phone. I can't say whether this happened or not. The next part. We know he did access the software, but that software does and I confirmed this. I called and asked somebody in the know about this, and he confirmed it. This would also have allowed him to manipulate the messages on his phone prior to handing them over. And for the record, I want you to know that because I asked, I wanted to know could he have done something, and absolutely that's a possibility. After he hooked it up to that ATF software machine and extracted those messages for the state, he also then said, well, yeah, I got rid of my phone shortly thereafter because I had to get aw I needed to get a new one. So, as an ATF agent who knew by that point on February third, he knew that he was in question and that he needed his text messages and they were going to be looking into all that. He knew this. He was an investigator, and he went and did all of that knowing what he knows about investigations. And by the way, this wasn't brought up really, but I want to tell you this. Using ATF equipment for what would be deemed quote unquote personal use is a violation of policy. Anywhere

19:18 you go, you cannot use any equipment for personal use. Let me give you an example real quick. You know police officers have their CAD their computer in their car. They cannot just look up anybody's name to see where they live or see stuff about them. It's tracked, it's logged, you know what I mean. And so you don't have a right to I'm going to I don't know if the word's abused, but I guess it is abuse your powers because you want to know about somebody in that manner. But yet you think it's appropriate that you can use your phone when you're a witness slash suspect and an investigation, go download your materials and turn it over and then get rid of the phone. That's idiocracy if you're an investigator to even attempt that. Secondly, what he did in that moment, if I were a supervisor, that would warrant impeding or interfering with an investigation. Charges should have been brought on him. And I even spoke to some law enforcement supervisors I know whenever I was thinking about all this, and they agreed with me. No, no, no, no, no, you're not the investigator on this. You are a witness slash suspect. Also, if you're going to get rid of a phone because you need a new one, you're an ATF agent, turn the son of a gun off and put it in a drawer until you're cleared, and then get rid of it. You didn't need to get rid of it. You wanted to get rid of it. You knew better. So the data Higgins ATF. Higgins said he

20:49 quote unquote handed over, in my opinion, sounds like it was just an honor system that they just were going to believe that what he gave them was what all there was. The very data that was given to the state to look at was what he provided them. A possible suspect in a dead CoP's death, with years of experience got rid of his phone, then they should go and check and see what they can find out. But now they can't because he got rid of it, y'all. That stinks all day long. Well there's a way around this, though, right because they could go get in law Albert, Brian Albert's phone and they can check his records to see was he on the phone with ATF Higgins. They could just kind of reverse engineer it. You know, it didn't rocket science, And you would be right if you were thinking that to yourself. They could they could if he too hadn't gotten rid of his cell phone just one day before a court order was issued to preserve his phone.

21:55 I tell y'all that I do not believe in coincidences. Do you do you believe coincidences like this? One day before a court order is issued, he gets rid of the phone. Two potential suspects ditch their phones, and both of them seasoned the cops at that come on and ATF. Higgins would later be asked if he called anyone while he was at the police station, and he was like, no, I mean if they were like, oh, so you didn't call anybody, and he was like, well, I mean if I did, it would have been a butt dial, because records would show that at some point in this questionable timeframe, they were able to see that ATF Higgins did call Brian Albert, but he said it was a butt dial, It wasn't a real call. Well, the question becomes with your face, how do you butt dial somebody with a phone to your face? That's weird And speaking of in law Brian Albert. Okay, this is all about his house, but I haven't told you much about what he said in his interview. So so starting with let's go to the day that John died. He confirmed that when he was downstairs and that Sergeant Lank came into the home.

23:11 Whenever he was questioned about it, all he said was, yes, Sergeant Lank was there, and they're like, by himself, he was like, yeah, it was just sergeant Lank the very first time that they spoke. And remember they're trying to a lot of people are trying to say, oh, no, no, that's not what happened, that's not what happened. Well, when he was questioned, he said, yeah, it was just sergeant Lank, and this was that meeting that was not recorded and no notes were taken. So it's kind of hard to argue that that didn't happen whenever you didn't realize what you were being asked and you told the truth at that moment. He also said that he called ATF. Higgins before the cops returned the second time to talk to him, so Lank came in the house, they talked. We have no clue what that was about. And then he says when Lank walked back outside, he called ATF. Higgins And then the next time Lank came in with another officer and they spoke again. So he said that the only time that he realized anything was going on back up before that was whenever he looked out of his bedroom window after his sister in law, Jennifer McCabe, busted into the room and woke them up, and he said, I went and looked out of the window. I saw a cop car. I saw some emergency vehicles. He said, I couldn't tell you exactly which ones I saw, but that's what happened. Later on in this questioning, he says that he went to his sister in law, Jennifer McCabe's house later that day and it just so happened that she was being interviewed by the police when that happened, and

24:42 they're like, so you show up whenever she's being interviewed, and he's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he said, but that's just because I knew she had found John's body and I wanted to go comfort her. But he said, I did know the police were there, but I was just going to comfort her. So they asked some more questions about that. He said that Jennifer McCabe and Matt McCabe, her husband, were spoken to separately in that home and that it happened while he went upstairs, and that he had no idea of what they were talking about, and that you know, blah blah blah blah blah. Well, I find that completely laughable that you just randomly showed up to comfort her. You're in the exact same house being questioned by police, and y'all both are considered witnesses slash suspects, and they let that goes down in the same house.

25:37 He said that he had no knowledge when he was asked about ATF. Higgins and the flirtatious texts between he and Karen, he said, I didn't know anything about that. Well, then on February third, that's when State Trooper Proctor interviewed in law Albert and his wife another time. Okay, have you ever watched television ever if you liked true crime ever in your life and heard the saying that the first forty eight hours is the most crucial timeframe in an investigation. Hell, there's a show called the first forty eight because that is the most crucial time that you gather all of the information in an investigation after something happens. Okay, so the question here is if it happened on January twenty ninth. Why did you wait multiple days before you even went and questioned the people that the very body was found in front of their house. It's odd to me that you didn't even ask them. But another question, regardless of that, is if you knew something was going on, because he said he looked out of his window, right, why didn't you come outside when all of that commotion was happening the morning John was found. Okay, you didn't come outside even after Jen mckab woke you up, y'all didn't come outside to see what was going on. And his answer was, well, we just didn't hear it. We didn't know what was going on. We were both asleep and whenever she woke me up, that's whenever I went downstairs.

27:10 And then he's like, so, so Sergeant Lank was there at that point, and we questioned, well, you said that you looked out your window, so like, I'm trying to understand this, I'm really trying to understand this. So they asked, okay, well what happened the night before? And this is Brian in law, Brian's account mixed with phone data because I want it to be more cohesive as I'm telling it to you. He says, when they got home, he went upstairs and he put his phone in the bed with him to sleep at night. And they asked, so you don't you know, you don't put your phone on a charger at night, and he was like, I mean, no, not always. Sometimes you just throw it in the bed with me at night. Ask yourself what you do with your cell phone at night? Maybe you don't charge it?

27:52 I do, Jimothy, you're in here. Do you charge your phone at night? You don't, really, So you you listened to you put your cell phone on your like nightstand and just listen to it while you're falling asleep, but you don't charge it while it's on the night sand Wow. All right, So there you go, two differing opinions on what happens with cell phones. Well then asked, you know, riddle me this. Why on the phone records does it show that you called ATF. Higgins at two twenty two am.

28:33 He says, oh, I didn't call him, And they're like, yeah, you did. I mean, it's in it's in the record that you did. So he goes, oh, well, I must have butt dialed ATF. Higgins. But y'all this was on an iPhone, and so when this was further pressed, he then says, okay, fine, I was having sex with my wife and I guess I accidentally called him, butt dialed him, sex dialed him. Whatever the hell, we're gonna call this right now, so let's break it down a little bit more. The call lasted. The first call lasted like two seconds, but then there was seventeen seconds later Brian Higgins called in law Brian back in law Albert back. He called him back, and when he called back, that call lasted twenty two seconds. So if you butt dialed him and then he called you back, how was there a twenty two second call after that? If it was just you weren't answering the phone, And all in law Albert could say was he didn't know. He said, I did not know that ATF. Higgins ever called me that morning, and then the next morning this becomes interesting. The next morning he said he didn't ever recall seeing a missed call from ATF. Higgins, and a voicemail wasn't left either. He was like, I just don't know what you're talking about.

29:56 That there wasn't even a voicemail, So there was no voicemail and you're claiming there was no missed call for twenty two seconds, then what the hell happened? If he would have said there was a voicemail, then I would say, oh, okay, well, I guess he left a voice, you know, but dial maybe there was a twenty two second just quiet type message okay. But he said there was no voicemail. Something happened for twenty two seconds, he admitted. He says, I was awake because I was having sex with my wife, but I never heard the phone ring. So then it's like, okay, well, maybe his phone was on silent, like let's really talk this through. But that didn't make sense either, because he had said earlier in the interview that the whole reason he had the phone in the bed with him was because of his kids, and if there was an emergency, he wanted his kids to be able to call him. Well, if your phone is on silent, then you're not going to hear your kids call. But then I got to thinking, okay, well I have my phone set on silent at night, except I have three people that if they call me three times back to back to back, the call then will come through and it'll be loud. Okay, but this is not the pattern. You know that we can prove happened or would have happened because nobody else called. Okay. Also, when he says no voicemail was left, I need y'all to know this, I'm gonna call my dad out. Okay.

31:16 My stepdad butt dials me all the damn time. All the time he butt dials me. But the difference here is that he always leaves me freaking voicemails. Okay. And I sit there and he's talking to people at the grocery store about how great candaloops are, or I hear noises of him getting in and out of the car. You know, it's obviously a voicemail from a butt dial. But he said he already said there were no voicemails on his phone, so it's just not jiving. They didn't talk and there is no voicemail, yet the phone shows doubt that there was a call. Here's the other caveat. He said he had a four digit passcode on his phone. You know, your phone locks automatically, so to open the phone, you have to swipe and then either your face can unlock it or you have to put in the four digit coat. So now That means that you're having sex with your wife and you accidentally swipe the phone open while you're having sex with your wife, and then you either accidentally had the phone in your face to unlock it, or you accidentally hit a four digit code and then butt dialed accidentally ATF Higgins. Okay, that's some weird type of sex going on. I don't know what that's about.

32:33 But he says, oh, we I'll butt dial people a lot. So he also told them that ATF Higgins the next morning whenever he saw him after John died, he said, I told him I may have butt dialed you last night. But then again, how would he know that he butt dialed ATF Brian Higgins if he didn't even know that he had a missed call from ATF Brian Higgins, Because you wouldn't see a butt dial, y'all. You wouldn't see an outgoing call on your phone, and then you certainly would have noticed first the red button on a missed call on an iPhone on the phone thing, Are y'all following what I'm saying? I hope so like that. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. He said when he woke awoke to jen it was like Jennifer McCabe. He said it was about seven twenty in the morning when when he later called Brian Higgins, and then he said that call lasted about two minutes. So here's another problem with that being said. I told John past episodes, but I'm gonna remind you Brian Albert's brother, Chris Albert. Okay, he was tight with John. Chris Albert was tight with the dead guy in the front yard, that was his good friend.

33:55 But yet Brian Albert finds out that John is dead in his front yard and he doesn't call his family. He doesn't call the brother that is tight with the dead man in his front yard, his brother, he doesn't call him. He calls atf Brian Higgins. That is weird to me, first person, I'm calling his family, you know, if something crazy happens. And he says, oh, well, the reason I called him was because we had been all out together the night before and I thought he might want to know, like it's just weird. Maybe you disagree and that's okay, And he says, oh well, all we did was talk about what was going on with John, and that was about it. But I want to give you some more phone out of here, and I hope you're following this, okay. After he spoke to him and he says he broke broke it all down and told ATF.

34:52 Higgins what he knew at that point. Then ATF. Higgins calls him back a few minutes later and they spoke for five more minutes. Okay, so they must have a lot to talk about, but then it goes even more Higgins. They hang up. Then Brian Albert calls Higgins again and they speak for twelve minutes, and then Homeowner Albert called his Canton p D detective brother Kevin Albert for about one minute. Then Chief Berkowitz called back to Brian Albert about fifty minutes later, but he missed that call, so Brian then called the chief back five minutes later after he saw it, and they spoke for a few minutes and hung up. Then Homeowner Albert called his sister in law Jen McCabe at eleven thirty and then Jen called him back around twelve fifty and they spoke again. And then Brian called Canton PD detective brother Kevin again around two pm and they spoke. Then he called Brian Higgins ATF.

36:19 Higgins around three twenty for six minutes. Then Brian Albert called the chief the following day and he spoke to him about one pm. They spoke for about five minutes. He called Jen again. He then called the chief on February first, and then he continued to speak to ATF Brian Higgins for a couple of more days after that. So there certainly are a whole lot of calls between the major players in this case speaking to each other and then speaking to law enforcement, and then speaking back to each other. And I want to remind you again that Canon p D had already been recused from this case, so in law Albert as well as ATF Brian Higgins at this point should have been both considered witnesses slash suspects.

37:12 Yet the chief of police is talking with both of them, and then they are all talking to one another. And I'll get to this further on in a minute, but the evidence in this case was also at Canton PD. Okay, it's being how's there, and that's going to play a role in another issue whenever I'm speaking about that a little bit later on. So we can pretty much establish that there's some something going amiss here at what I just told you. So what about Carrie Roberts, the one who was with Karen and Jim McCabe whenever they found John's body. Well, the very same day that Carrie found John with them, she was interviewed by police at her house.

37:55 So Carrie's interviewed right then, but not the other people. That's kind of interesting too. Well, some days later before John's funeral, Jim McCabe called Carrie about meeting up again at Jim McCabe's house to try to go over a timeline of events to see if they could possibly figure out what happened to John. So Carrie says sure, She goes over to Jen McCabe's house and they sat together writing out a timeline of events when there was a knock on the door. So to their surprise, it was two state troopers and they had some questions to ask in regards to the investigation. But here's the kicker. Two women who found a dead body together were now wait for it, drumroll, please, interviewed as potential witnesses and suspects in the same home, just like whenever the in law Alberts were there, but in a separate room and had no idea what the mccabs were saying. Well, it's kind of like the same thing happened here because they were interviewed in the same home, but in separate rooms. Because we all know that houses are just completely soundproof once you go from one room to the other. Right, yeah, right, Okay, So the women who were sitting together trying to, based on what you believe, either understand a timeline or maybe create a timeline. That's up to you to decide. They're together.

39:27 And I am of the opinion that it was tactical on Jim McCabe's part for her to call carry over to go over a timeline. I think it was very tactical, and I think that she wanted to put things in Carrie's head. It's a personal opinion. Obviously you may not agree. But why do I say this then, Because Carrie at first had told police in that interview that Karen said I hit him, I hit him, But later on, under intense scrutiny, she admitted that she did not actually hear Karen Reid say I hit him, I hit him, but that Jen McCabe had reminded her that Karen said it.

40:13 So I find that Carrie was a pawn in all of this from the get go, and she was being manipulated by Jen McCabe in some fashion. And I'll add another reason why. I think that while Jen McCabe was quote in another room as Carrie was being interviewed, and she said, well I couldn't hear what Carrie was saying. They put me in another room while she was being interviewed by police. Well that would be okay if her text message history didn't say a few things that it said. For instance, while that was going on, there was a group text message that Jen McCabe had and in that group it was like a family group. Okay, So by family, I mean it's got the mccabs in it, and it's got the in law Albert's in it, and so it's family in this group. In this group text. Now, I certainly don't want to read to you. I don't. I know you don't want to be read to. But I also don't want to infer anything more or less than what was actually said. So I'm going to read you about six messages. Here we go. So this is the day that John died. Okay, I want to give you perspective here. The day that John died. Jennifer McCabe texted her sister, Nicole, which is in law Albert Nicole, and she said, Carrie talked to the cops. Kept it simple.

41:33 Nicole responded back, Okay, try and get some sleep. We'll talk tomorrow. And then a little while later, Jim McCabe texted her sister again any updates, and her sister responded back, we'll get more information tomorrow. Don't want to text about it. And then jen said to her sister Nicole, right, and then Nicole said to Jennifer, Okay, text me in the morning or if you hear anything late. Well, if you, in my opinion, if you didn't want to text about it, that means that you've got stuff you want to say that you don't want anyone to potentially see. Right, And you're married to a detective, so you can decide though.

42:16 All right. But two days later, in that same groom family group chat that includes the Albert and the mccabes, this is when it gets interesting to me, all right, in law Brian sends a message to everyone in the group that says Julie, which is the pizza shop owner Chris Albert's wife. Julie said Channel four is in the pizza shop. Okay, So Julie was there at work or at the pizza shop, and then told the whole family. You know, oh my god, the media is here from this point forward. I'm gonna say who's speaking only, but I want you to know that it's to the group. Okay, So whoever speaking, it's going to the whole group. So Matt McCabe says, tell Chris, meaning Chris Albert, Pizza Albert owner. Okay, tell Chris to ask some questions. Tell them the guy never went in the house in law Brian Albert exactly.

43:09 Jen McCabe, omg in law Nicole Albert. I assume they're there to eat, but if Julie is there, ask her what the deal is? Ask her to ask them what the deal is. Jen McCabe ask if we heard she's in a mental hospital, and then she adds, Carrie is here at my house. To go over the timeline, the mental hospital is in reference to Karen Reid. Okay, so she wants whoever Julie Albert ask if we've heard that Karen Reid is in a mental hospital, like trying to allude to the fact she must be crazy and then tells the group and Carrie is here at my house to go over the timeline. In law Brian responds, I did hear that, Jim McCabe. We handed the phone to Carrie.

44:00 So she's updating the family that investigators have called for whatever reason. And now Carrie's got the phone. Why would they care? You know, why does that even matter? And then Jen McCabe says, she's telling him talking about Trooper Proctor. She's telling him everything, all the stuff. I don't know what that meant, but all the stuff, y'all. Matt McCabe, yep. If she pleads out, it's over. She fights it, It's gonna be an episode. Who do you think he's talking about? He's talking about Karen Reid in Lonaicle, Albert says, sitting separate in law Brian. Albert says, okay. Then Jen McCabe says, cops here again, and this is in reference to her being with Carrie at the mccab house. Okay, the cops are here again in Lonaicle, Albert says, call us after so why are they so interested? You have to ask them?

44:58 Why are they so interested in everything that Carrie is saying to the cops. It to me sounds like she's been fed information. And I don't think that she's doing it on purpose, but I think that Carrie Roberts was kind of manipulated because she was so traumatized by what happened, and Jen McKay was kind of feeding her information as well as the other Alberts. So Matt McCabe says, this girl could write a book, and he's saying this in reference to Carrie talking to the police. She could write a book. And Jen McCay responds, I love it. She's telling them everything. And she says this because the mccabes could hear the cops talking to Karen, because, like I said, they were in the same house, but in a different room.

45:43 Why would you text that unless you were listening to what was being said. She was listening to what was being said in law Nicole Albert says good, and Matt McKay, being snarky, says, we're gonna miss the basketball game at this rate. It's proof to me that they are all trying to verify the story that's being told and that they're excited that Carrie Roberts is repeating things that were said to her. I really don't think Carry Roberts is a bad person. I don't. I think that she just got manipulated and didn't know it. Because there were other times too when they were talking that they pretty much were kind of doubting her about like she talks a lot, you know, how she is, so we got to do this, and that they just didn't seem to respect her the way that I would respect my friends. I wouldn't talk about them like that. Now. I'm not sure if you agree with what I'm telling you here, but a lot of people would agree that this is what collusion looks like.

46:37 Collusion to verify that we're all going to say the same thing. And the fact that they were supposed to be in that other room yet they were listening and reporting back to their family members sure does give credence to that thought process too. And it would also become later interesting that Michael Proctor Trooper Proctor interviewed Jim McCabe, who in that interview, and this is also reflected in the report that was written at the time about the interview. Jen says that she told Karen the morning that John was missing to come to her house, so it wasn't like Carrie Roberts said, Jen, come over, let's try to figure out what happened to John. No. Jen McCabe, who's the sister of where John was found, told Carrie to come to her house so that they could go over a timeline. But her words were actually create a timeline.

47:29 So she also said in that report that was written that she saw Karen Reid's tail light whenever they left Karen's vehicle at John's to go look for him, that she saw Karen's tail light was cracked. Okay, But Jen McCabe now, when that was brought up to her attention that hey, previously you said you just saw the tail light cracked. Well, she says now that that's not true. She says both things actually aren't true. She says, I never told Karen to come to my house, which is what she originally said. She changed her story. And then number two, she said that the tail light was cracked and it was missing pieces. But that's not what she originally said in the original report. She just said the tail light was cracked. Now she says that that's not true.

48:21 And the thing about it is her story never changed until a little bit after John was found dead. You know what I'm saying, Like a little while after they started doing investigating and requestioning things. She also, whenever she was interviewed the day of John's death, strangely did ask the police, have y'all spoken to Carry yet? Why would you need to know that? Why would it matter to know if they had spoken to Carry yet? You both were there when the body was found. Why do you care if they spoke to Carry yet? Just tell your story well, knowing what you know now since I've laid it out for you. It was seeming like she was wanting to make sure her statements aligned with Carrie's if they had already spoken to her. Otherwise it wouldn't matter if they had spoken to her or not. So whenever the police went to get video from John's home ring camera, it would serve a great purpose. Most importantly, it would clear up whether the tail light was just cracked that morning or if it was missing pieces, and they were able to get the video, but they would realize that they would have some missing footage whenever they went and they got the video from from John's ring camera. So the footage that was missing was from eleven thirty the night before. For a couple of hours, so the camera did though show at five am the morning John was realized to be missing. When Karen backed out of the house,

49:54 she actually bumped John's car that was on video. And still this day, no one's really clarified what happened or why that section of tape was mysteriously missing. But I don't know that anything happened in that timeframe that would matter anyway. I mean, we know that she went home, and I'll tell you why in a minute, and we know that when she left it was called on camera. So it was brought up to the police that Karen had stopped by the house the evening after John died to see the kids, meaning his kids, and went upstairs with her dad for about fifteen minutes. So John was pronounced dead Later that evening, Karen was released from the hospital and then her dad drove her to John's house where everybody had collected to kind of grieve and whatever, and she wanted to go see the kids chuckle down, and she and her dad went upstairs for about fifteen minutes.

50:50 So the question kind of became, was it possible that maybe Karen deleted video that would show her tail light was shattered, and then she might have gotten home at a different time than originally stated, which would have given her more room to have hit him with the car. These questions came about because why would there be missing footage. That's weird. Well, this would be answered soon enough because Karen had left some unsavory voice messages or for John after she left the in law Albert's home that night, and included in those was an accidental voicemail that was left on John's phone, and it would become important. Karen's not talking or anything, but what you can hear in the background is really telling about what's going on. It's clear that Karen was home at the time she claimed to be home at John's house because the voicemail that was left accidentally. You can hear the sounds of her car pulling into the garage. You can hear her door open.

51:51 You can hear that beeping of a car, you know in open door. You can hear that. Then you can hear her heels clanking on the ground in rapid fashion as she's approaching the house and she's walking. This is a very very obvious sound when you hear a voicemail like the voicemail like this. It's something we all can tell what's going on when you hear it. And if that footage was deleted by Karen, which I personally don't believe, her timeline was still solid because of that accidental voicemail that she left and the fact that her cell phone connected to John's WiFi at the exact same time. Okay, So that is why I came to the conclusion that I don't really buy that Karen would have deleted any any footage. So I want to go through the events of the voicemails too, and I'm going to play them for you as I explain them for you. But they are very tough to hear. They are very poor quality, so you're going to have to listen, and I acknowledge to you that they're not the best quality. So after Karen left the in law Albert residence, she says she dropped John off there in whatever condition at this point, you believe that he was in, you believe that right now, And she said she called him back to back to back.

53:04 I think y'all in total, it was like fifty three calls or something like that, Like this was a lot of calls, Okay. Karen called John, I'm gonna break them all down for you. So Karen leaves John at the house. She called John seven times and he did not answer the phone at all, in rapid pace. She called seven times before she left her first voicemail. Okay, And as I mentioned, that voicemail was left at twelve thirty six am, and she was connected to John's WiFi by this point that I mentioned to you earlier. So there's no way she was still at the in law Albert's house, is what I'm trying to tell you. She had to be at John's when that happened. Over the next two minutes after that voicemail, she called John four more times, back to back, and again he did not answer. And that's when she left the second voicemail, which is the one where you're gonna hear her walking and getting out of the car. But I don't want you to just believe me.

54:04 I'm going to play it for you now. I want you to make your own assessment and see if you hear the same thing that I'm hearing and you think it's the same thing. Okay. Now, after that voicemail, she texts him, I'm going home. This is at twelve fifty five, almost one am. She then calls him more times, a couple more times, and then at twelve fifty nine she leaves another voicemail and she is pissed with a capital P when she leaves this one. Go ahead and listen to that one, John, I'm here with you a fucking kid, Jill, please Jose for the funky white, sucky herder. After that, she seems to accidentally leave another voicemail, but it records only these these background noises and there's no words to it.

55:27 It's not something I'm going to play here because you're going to think there's something wrong with my audio because it's literally just like silence and like some noises. And either way, I just want you to know there was another voicemail that was left. She then texted him at one oh two am, and it said quote your kids are fucking alone. End quote. Two minutes later, she texted him quote I'm back in Mansfield. Your kids are home alone. Now we obviously know that that's not true, y'all, because she was pat you know, she was just pissed off, and she was clearly trying to get him to call her back, and she had connected to John's WiFi. She was just trying to get him to call her back. Then at one ten she leaves her fifth voicemail, go ahead and give this one a listen one in the morning.

56:09 But this fucking needs to fu you fucking fer You're fucking okay. From one ten am to one sixteen am, she calls eight more times, and again they go unanswered, and then she called at one seventeen, leaving voicemail number six. You can go ahead and listen to that one. Now John's from going call. I cannot be to any ends to go home. You You are fucking using me right now. You're fucking as a girl. He's freaking next to me. You're fucking bolder blast itself. After that one, she does call one more time, which he doesn't answer, and this is when Karen said about that same time. She doesn't mention necessarily all these voicemails and things, but she does tell investigators that she dozed off or she must have fallen asleep, which seems to be fired because she does not call his phone again until four thirty eight AM, So some hours go by, and when she starts calling, she calls four times between four thirty eight and five twenty one am. Those go unanswered, and then she leaves her seventh voicemail at five twenty three am. And you can tell in this one there's been a shift. She's very upset, almost in a scared way, not an angry way. So listen to this one. After that voicemail, she calls him eleven more times. And I know right now you're like, damn, Kelly, how many freaking

57:39 phone calls? Hey, I didn't do it. I'm just here to tell you what happened. She blowed him the fuck up on this phone, all right, But she called in between five twenty four and five thirty six am before she left her eighth voicemail. But this one, again was an accidental voicemail. Well how do I know that? Because this is the time around when they found John the three win and that voicemail, which is really long, okay, it actually recorded that situation as it unfolded, and again, very very hard to hear. But there's points where you hear Karen screaming just I mean screaming, and then there's times where there's breaks and you hear like the this noise doom dun doom, dum, doom doom and I was like, listen to it over and over, couldn't figure it out.

58:26 And then finally I realized that's the damn Winschell wipers from the from the car going back and forth after you know, they got out. I won't lie. It took me a minute, but I think I figured that out to be what it is. And then after you hear the Winchell wipers, you hear parts of Jen McCabe whenever she made that call to nine one one. Now I'm gonna tell you I've shortened this call this voicemail because I want you to hear something. It's just a lot of silence, a lot of windshell wipers going back and forth. It's so long that it would literally you would lose interest. So I'm just gonna give you a certain snippet of it where you can hear a lot that is happening and you can kind of get a feel for how Karen was behaving.

59:06 So listen to this one.

1:00:03 Sorry, I know I know that. Sorry, I mean, I'm not so if. I'm just gonna be completely out there with you and you'll know that's how I am. I know I've been kind of snotty so far about not believing in law Brian Albert and at F. Higgins whenever there's these accidental butt dials back and forth. Okay, But the difference between their claims of butt dialing and Karen Reid's butt dials is that she admits that she was on her phone, and she obviously had her phone open, And it makes sense to me that you would accidentally butt dial or dial again or hit call again, redial when the phone is open and you have been chronically trying to call somebody. Also, you know she was drunk, and I think it's completely believable when you've called someone in the range of fifty seven times that you might dial them and not realize it while you're drunk and you leave a voicemail. But the point is there's voicemails.

1:01:23 There's voicemails as to what was going on. The in law Alberts and ATF. Higgins want us to believe that they accidentally but dialed each other although they weren't actually on their phones at that time. There's a big difference there. And I just don't believe the men. I don't believe what they're saying happened. So listening to Karen's voicemails. You would be hard pressed to believe that she was not mad at John and they weren't fighting when she dropped him off at the house. Clearly that she was mad. She was big mad. Okay, she was mad from the second that she left, and not believe that firmly. I believe that because of the voicemails and the fact she admitted that they were fighting in the car before she drove off. And I mentioned last episode about some Google searches that magically changed timestamps. So I want to take a minute to address this. But this is going to require us looking further into miss Jennifer McCabe herself, the name I've said a million times. When Jennifer McCabe was interviewed, much of what she said originally aligned with the other in law Alberts. Remember in law Albert Nicole. That's her sister, the homeowner of the house where John was found. So starting the day that John died, when Jen's phone was taken and reviewed by police, it would be realized that there was a very interesting Google search made on that phone.

1:02:40 She never mentioned it either. It was spelled wrong, So I'm going to say it correct after I tell you what it said here, It said has long to die in the cold, meaning how long to die in the cold, And considering all the suspicious activity to this point, it sure does seem to be odd, right. I'd also like to point out it wasn't readily in her search history either, because it was actually a deleted search. So why would you delete this search? That's obviously going to be a question everyone's going to ask themselves. And I'm not getting into the science of it here. That's what the court case was for. It's technical and all of that. So what I'm gonna do is tell you that this whole situation became an argument in and of itself, she claimed.

1:03:27 Jim McCabe claimed she never deleted that search, but the data showed it was deleted. Experts weighed in on this, and both experts disagreed on the meaning of it. One said she deleted. Well, they actually they disagreed on the meaning of the word deleted. Okay. One said she deleted it like she manually went in and she deleted it. The other experts said, no, she didn't deleted, just means she closed out a tab that was open well the time that she made the search, which then also becomes an argument. The phone showed that she made this search at two am. Conveniently, just to point out, that's about the time right before Brian Higgins atf Brian Higgins and in law Brian Albert were making that butt doll call back and forth to each other. It's like right before that. Okay, Jen said, no, no, no, I did search that, but I only searched that after we found John's body because Karen asked me to search it. The phone shows that she was using it and searching a sports website at two twenty seven am. So one expert said, what happened was that sports website was open, and then when she went to go search how long to die in the cold, she just reused that sports page that was up search And that's why it looks like she did it at two twenty seven am, but really it was done at

1:04:58 six point twenty two am the phone. So the reason they came up with that too was that at six twenty two in the morning, the data on the phone showed a suggested search came up from like predictive text whenever you're trying to search something, and it said the predictive text came up how long to digest food? But the user who searched it ignored that suggestion. So if she ignored that suggestion, that would mean she was actively on like looking at the phone, using it at that moment and then typing in the how long to die in the cold. So you have to decide do you think that she did it at two am or do you think that she did it at six twenty two am.

1:05:39 I'm gonna let you decide. The predictive text explanation for experts did seem legit to me, and the fact that it had to be manually ignored wasn't something that I think in the moment she would be forward thinking about if searching this for devious reasons, like if John had gotten hurt in at their hands and then they searched it. So while this is understand what isn't understandable is the fact that she had also deleted some phone calls that were deleted. So at twelve fourteen, she spoke to John voice, spoke to John on the phone, twelve eighteen, she spoke to him again. At twelve twenty nine, she called John and he didn't answer, but she deleted that call. At twelve forty one, she called John, he didn't answer. She deleted that call. At twelve forty three, she called John, it was unanswered. She deleted that call. So the argument became they, as in the defense, started going, wait a minute, this is about the time that John was believed to have been killed in whatever killed him. So she called him again at twelve forty seven, John didn't answer. She deleted that, And at twelve fifty she called John, he did not answer. She deleted that. So the defense started going, wait a minute, she's kind of calling him through this timeframe, John's already medically, you know, based on the evidence, believed to be dead. Well, if you misplace a phone, or you're trying to find somebody's phone, what do you do

1:07:11 when you're trying to find that phone, You ask somebody to call it and they kind of chronic call it until they're able to locate it. Well, when Jen was asked, okay, well, why did you delete these calls or what are these calls about, she says, Oh, those were butt dials. So you butt dialed John six times in nineteen minutes. That seems weird. And then if you butt dialed him, why'd you delete them? Who goes in and deletes calls, especially butt dials. The only reason that it was discovered all of these calls had happened to wasn't because of Jen McCabe's phone. You know where it was actually discovered in John's phone. John's phone showed in a forensic audit that all of those calls have been made. Then when they went and looked at Jen's phone, that's when they realized she's been deleting calls. So the only reason I can think to delete a call would be to hide it.

1:08:05 I don't know any other reason of why you would need to delete a call. Okay, So when would all of these deletions have taken place? Well, I'm glad you asked. It would have had to have occurred between January twenty ninth, when John was found dead and February second, because that's when her phone was taken and looked at. Again. I just want to say this, I don't delete phone calls unless there would be a reason to delete a phone call, which only reason I would think you would do it would be so no one saw it. No one else is looking at no one's looking in your phone. Why would you delete a call? Why do you care? You know what happened and the voicemails. Okay, I delete voicemails. I'll give you that I do because it gets full.

1:08:46 But I don't delete voicemails until it's full, so that's the only thing I delete. Now, you might be having a reason you delete calls. I don't know. But we all are going to view things and evidence through our own personal lens and our own personal experiences, and that's all I have personally to weigh against this. I've been talking to you for over an hour, and we've got everybody in their Mama lion. We don't know who's telling the truth. We've got deleted messages, we've got voicemails, we've got everything going on, and I still have another hour plus of stuff to give you that I cannot skip on. So guaranteed, without question, next episode will be the final episode where I wrap it up in this Karen Reid series.

1:09:29 I guess we'll just have to hang on the fact that nobody really seems to remember what they said until they're faced with someone pressing play on the voicemails, and it's going to be really hard for these people to try to clear things up. When everyone's neck deep in their own bullshit,