Hostile Divorce: The Case of Kayla Giles

0:06 Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell stories of real crimes with real victims whose cases are so shocking that many are left wondering how is this even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections, and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator, dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so evil many feel they are unspeakable.

0:50 Warning. Unspeakable as intended for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey, y'all, kJ You're back with another episode of Unspeakable. What's happening? How is your week going? It's fantastic here. The weather is shit, but that's okay. That's no problem because that gives us more time to listen to the podcast. Right, you can sit inside or do whatever. And it's cold where I'm at? Is it cold where you are? Because Mama don't do well in the cold. I need it to be hot. I want to be out on the river. I want to be fishing, not cold in my house. All right, So I've got a banging episode for you this week. Worked really hard on this one as far as there is so much going on, and I know that this one's actually kind of popular, especially in Louisiana, so I wanted to make sure to cover it for you.

1:35 Before I get started, though, I have to give some shout outs, and I will start loud and proud in Laplace, Louisiana, where Sarah Boudreau, girl, you better be smiling, you better be big cheesing right now. As I promised, I was giving you a shout out this next episode, so I'm saying hello, I'm waving to you in the camera, Sarah, so happy to have you. My family is actually Boudreaus, so we might be cousin. I'll say that all the time. Everybody's my cousin, right, So so happy to have you, Sarah. And then right here also in Denim Springs, Louisiana, and I know you personally, Melissa Burgess, how are you? Haven't seen you in a little bit, but I'm waving at you and it just made my day to see your name come across as a member of my crime family.

2:17 And then we're gonna go to Thomasville, Georgia, where I have Marcia, and I believe this. Would be Popell Popell, Popell Popell. It's Popell. Hey, Marsha, what is going on in your neck of the woods. My friend, just my best friend actually just moved to Georgia. That's bittersweet, but maybe y'all will meet and y'all can be besties too. Then Greensboro, and this is Pennsylvania. We've got Lorie Cowie. Lori Cowie, what a cute name. How are you doing, Lori Cowie over there in Greensboro. I hope that you're having the best time this week and that you see me waving at you in the camera. And then, last, but not least, all the way from California is gonna be Miss Holly Pritchett.

2:57 Hi, Holly. Please tell everybody that I said all the way over there, never been there, but I do have plans to make it your way now. Like I said, we are going to be staying in my home state of Louisiana for this episode. And if you have been around at all, you probably have heard about this case and I took a deep dive for you. So we are going to go all the way to Alexandria, Louisiana. And this is not a city too far from me. It's located right in central Louisiana, and specifically this is going to be in Rapid's Parish and it sits roughly halfway between Lafayette and Shreveport. And it's the ninth largest city in the state if you're curious about what type of or what size this area is. And it lies right on the south bank of the Red River. And that city is known as the heart of Louisiana since it literally sits right in the middle of the state and it operates much like the rest of our state does, full of you know, Cajun people and Southern Baptist beliefs.

3:59 It's different, I guess from other areas, depending if you go north or south, but right there in the central area, you know, they're right in the heart of things. So while certainly not country life, it does maintain that old time feel. It's known for cotton and sugar and alfalfa, and then it's got these bayous that lazily, you know, make their way through the state and through that area full of wildlife, ones like Byou Rapids, by you Robert. All of these are are known for that in that area. So Alexandra is going to be home to a lot of people. And this is gonna include Thomas and Kayla Kuti. Now this isn't kuti or koty like you have cooties. No, this is from French roots and it's pronounced kooti. Fun fact, by the way, the name originates from the word kutil, which refers to somebody that sold like this mattress ticking, which is a type of strong cotton drill. But koutil is Parisian French. And down here we got more kuon ass going on than anything. And so cooton if I believe, if I remember that correctly, that would be the kun as cage and way to say cotton.

5:12 So there's that. Now, while you may not speak French, you should know your letters and so can you say m m A, of course you can. Well, let's talk about some of the people in this case and how MMA fighting plays a role in it. So Thomas Kuti had a hobby that he loved so much that. He was hoping that, I don't know, maybe he could go pro one day. We all dream, right in some fashion, that we make it to the top of our game. And so while Thomas worked as a welding instructor at Central Louisiana Technical College, that was his official job that paid the bills. He also loved to fight, and he was no professional by any means, like I said, but he aspired to be a great fighter one day. Nobody gets in the ring not wanting to be the best.

5:59 But for now he was just an amateur. He stood six feet one inch tall. He weighed roughly two hundred and fifteen pounds, which would put him in the light heavyweight category on his card, and his welding job is what put food on the table. But his passion for mma was undeniable. So he was known as Thomas Hitman Couti and he had a record of four wins and one loss. And he also loved to race all terrain vehicles. This is a dude's dude. If ever there was so welding, fighting and racing. What more can I say that would prove this point to you that he was just a dude's dude. And Kayla, his wife, she was a catch as well, but she has a tiny little thing. She stood about five foot two, one hundred and fourteen pounds, but she carried a sassy punch with her and they say that dynamite comes in small packages, so she would definitely exemplify that statement. She was an Army veteran, but after her contract ended, she didn't just up and completely leave the military in her past because she was working for the Veterans Affairs Office, which serves to aid veterans in their healthcare benefits things along those lines. Now, these are just two regular people living their regular lives. When on September the eighth of twenty eighteen, at around eleven am, a nine to one one call came into dispatch. This was a shots fired call and it was right outside of the local walmart in Alexandria, Louisiana, and basically stated a man was down.

7:34 So when police arrived, they did find a man on the ground. He was being worked on and based on witnesses at the scene, he had been receiving CPR prior to even I think the paramedics arriving. Some help had been given to him and they too continued working on him once the medics got there. Upon their arrival, now, while securing the scene, it was realized that the man on the ground was Thomas Kotie and his estranged now wife, Kayla, was also on the scene. So obviously this was very interesting. So police wanted to ask some questions as to what exactly had taken place.

8:16 For the shooting to have taken place. So Kayla was calm at the scene, but she was on her phone initially before police were able to get to her and to speak with her when they were trying to kind of settle the area. And you're always told one thing. Maybe you haven't been told this, but this is a very common thing that you would be told, and that is that anytime that you may be involved in a potentially dangerous situation or one in which you might be looked at as possibly a suspect, you definitely should never speak to the police in that type of situation. Now, every cop in America right now is going shut up, Kelly, No, that's not true. I get what you're saying. But as far as a defense attorney would say, they would tell you, don't speak to the police, wait until you have an attorney present. But sometimes it just isn't that simple. So at first, when the police wanted to speak with her, Kayla was hesitant because of that very notion of hey, you know, you shouldn't speak.

9:16 To the police. However, once she got to the police station, things became much more tense, and she felt that she needed to tell them everything to clear the air. So before I get into what that questioning was, let me tell you a little bit about Thomas and Kayla so that she can become more acquainted with what the all around situation was at the time of this shooting at Walmart. So when the first two when the two first met, they were both in their twenties. Kayla was one year older than Thomas, and they were obviously attracted to one another physically, but that was at first, and then that would grow into a meaningful relationship well beyond the physical within time.

10:00 So Kayla was a pretty little thing, long brown hair, almond shaped, brown eyes, tiny little features all the way around. While Thomas was a handsome guy too, in a very i would say, country rugged type of way. So like, if you like testosterone, very obvious in your guy, he's your type. He wasn't bulging with muscles or anything like that. But he was fit, he was tall, he was manly. He had this average guy's short brown haircut, and he had a brown goateee. That was his typical look from day to day. So as the relationship had become more serious, Thomas knew that loving Kayla would also mean he had to love every part of her, including the fact that she was already a mother not of just one child, but of two from a previous relationship. But luckily for her, this was not an issue for him, and when he finally proposed to Kayla, he did so with the full intention of a loving stepfather to her children. The couple was overjoyed to announce their engagement, and they eventually would seal the deal in Waco, Texas on October twenty fourth of twenty fourteen. So soon thereafter, as you can probably expect, the couple would find out that they were expecting a child together, and this was just a beautiful moment that they were just both over the moon to not only have their children through this marriage, but now they're going to share a child, at least biologically, right through their union.

11:33 And blended families can be difficult, but considering the older two girls were still really little, the transition would prove very very smooth. Everyone loves a baby, especially two little girls who are going to be promoted to big sisters, and after waiting a few weeks, they found out that they would be big sisters to none other than another little sister. No boys in this house. Poor Thomas was going to be completely and totally outnumbered in the household. And I think everybody goes into a marriage expecting things to last forever and to be wonderful, and. Let's at least hope.

12:13 So why did you jump into a marriage if you didn't. But as is all too common, after the baby was born, things just began to unravel. The tensions of life and responsibilities, all of it just became a lot, and the fighting failed to have negotiation within it, and it just began to escalate. And although it wasn't what they expected starting out, their marriage was destined basically for failure. An inability to compromise and an inability to work through and try to have issue resolution would send their marriage into an absolute spiral. So the couple would remain married for only about four years before they decided they were just going to call it quits, and they officially separated on February second of twenty eighteen. Now Thomas would be the one who would officially file for the divorce and start those proceedings, and things seem to be moving along just as amicably as you could expect when people no longer want.

13:12 To be together. But the courts did have to get involved to help them mitigate their differences and the separation of their lives. And the main thing that was being considered as far as the parents were concerned, was who would have custody of their shared biological daughter. Neither side wanted to give up their rights or give up their time with the child, and so that was the whole issue that was at the forefront of everything. Who would get to have her for holidays and birthdays and everything that every friggin divorcing family across America likely argues. And I mean, hell, they couldn't get along in their marriage, so they sure as hell weren't going to be getting along when it was over, you know. And we're supposed to be making these these agreements with one another. So the courts were doing their part, and this included determining property settlement as well as things like who would be covering medical and dental coverage for the children or their child together, respectively. So they owned a home in Pineville, Louisiana, as well as about five acres of property in Rydell, Texas, and then they had two vehicles, nothing extravagant, but it still had to be dealt with. I mean, it's business as usual. So Kayla would be determined to be the one that would provide the medical and the dental insurance for their daughter through the VA. So there was no problem there. That was a good thing. There was coverage. But six months after they separated and the divorce was now in full on

14:44 in progress, they would find themselves in family court on August twentieth of twenty eighteen to get an official custody order from the judge. So, after weighing all of the information and considering what was thought to be in the best interest of the child, the judge decided it would be best if they shared custody of their daughter. Now, the exact days or schedule, I don't have that to give you. I don't find that to be even relevant. Honestly, in the story, they were splitting custody in whatever manner that was set in the courts. I'm assuming it was fifty to fifty with alternating weekends, which is very common.

15:25 And you're like, Okay, well, why do you assume that, Kelly, Well, I'm a child of divorce. I've been through it myself. It's just something that I would assume to be the general idea. So while this to me would be a considered a win on both sides, I can see how this would be stressful as a mother and as a father, because a mama wants her baby all the time. You know, Mamas don't want to give up. That's our role is to nurture and to love and to take care of And the thing is that that's the daddy's role too. Daddies feel the drive to protect and to provide and to love their children as well. So even with an order in place for the exchanges, things became more and more contentious. It just was not improving. I would say.

16:15 The custody exchanges weren't going well either, and no matter what they fought. By the way, you can always do a custody exchange at a police station if you feel like things may go bad or may escalate. I'm just throwing that out there. If you're going through this right now, that's good advice. Take it or leave it. But custody exchanges can be done in the presence of law enforcement if you're have any worries about that. So that's where we will get to this shooting at Walmart, which despite heroic efforts that were given, they were unable to save Thomas Coote's life, and he's still lay dead on the ground when Kayla left the scene to be questioned by police, and it was pretty clear that something had gone sideways, and Kayla readily admitted that she had shot and ultimately killed her estranged husband right there in that Walmart parking lot.

17:12 But there was one pretty big detail to this that to me, adds so much more devastation to the already horrible situation. All three of these little girls were there and watched it happen with their own little eyes. All three of these baby girls were right there, only two years old, five years old, and seven years old, and they watched their father and stepfather be shot by their mother and then he collapse right there in front of them during what should have been a simple custody exchange.

17:54 They heard this loud boom of the gun go off, which is scary enough not to mention they were only mere feet away when it took place, but they also watched it from just these few feet away as he collapsed. And then you know, strangers run up and they're trying to stop this bleeding and trying to keep their daddy alive, all while still buckled in to his truck, And it paints a picture in my mind that. Is just devastating. It's just unnatural and something that we wouldn't wish on our worst enemy for a child to witness. And they never saw him stand back up, They never saw him even move after he fell over. They never even got to see an ambulance take him away either with the hope of maybe he would live, because he died right there in front of them. The crime scene was taped off around their motionless and bleeding dad, and their mother was then taken away for questioning as their little minds sat there and just tried to absorb what was happening, and to put yourself in the shoes of a two, five and seven year old, and that they don't understand the complexities of everything that's going on. I'm sure that they were terrified, absolutely terrified. The two very people whose job it was to protect them and shield their little eyes from things too mature for them. They both of those people had failed to do just that, one because

19:26 he couldn't he was lying dead on the ground, and the other because she was so scared and upset and unsure of what to do, made a split second decision that would now affect everybody within a five foot radius of that gun going off. So, as you can likely tell, this episode is not going to be a huge who done it? This is going to be a little. Bit different, but there will be more questions than answers. Very shortly so, while CSI came in for the photos and to document the scene, the coroner was also called to come because they have to retrieve the body, and upon detective's completion of gathering all of their evidence at the scene, Thomas was then loaded into a van and brought to the medical examiner's office for autopsy. The girls were loaded up and they were taken away as well, to the custody of trusted adults, while Kayla was brought to the police station where the questioning of what the hell just happened would begin. Now Initially wanting to maintain her silence, like I already said, Kayla was hesitant to speak, but eventually she would start to open up and speak about the events of that morning as they unfolded, and she explained that she and Thomas were separated. They were well on their way to divorcing, but they had also made arrangements that day to meet up for a custody exchange, and it was going to be a fun day, specifically for their youngest daughter, because she was heading to Chuck

20:56 E Cheese. That's right, y'all. It was her second birthday. It was her birthday, and her daddy was gonna have a little party for her in celebration at the Chucky Cheese. Not only that, but Thomas had also invited his soon to be ex step daughters to join them as well at this party. Now, this was their half sister's birthday, and y'all, regardless of the adult divorce drama, they were still little girls and they wanted to be there. They wanted to be there. Thomas also loved these little girls, all three of them, and he was happy to invite them along. Think about this, He had played and fulfilled the role of daddy for these two non biological girls for almost four years, and to act as if he could just discard them, I would say, would be a complete insult to his character. You know, he took care of these girls, and he took a vow to take care of these girls, and he did just that. So although the girls were now five and seven, divorce means nothing small children who just know that they love people and they're not going to stop loving adults or their half sister just because the divorce happens. Kids aren't wired that way. It doesn't work like that. They don't lose love for people because a divorce is in place. And both Kayla and Thomas, to their credit, recognize this, and so the plan was to meet up at the Walmart parking lot around eleven AM, where Kayla would hand over the children to Thomas for him to take them to

22:28 this birthday party. Now, Kayla was reportedly living in a gated community right near the Walmart. I believe it was condos, and so this was a very convenient and neutral site for this exchange to take place. And Kayla would explain to the investigators that what started out as a completely normal ish I guess. You know, for what they were dealing with. What started out as a normalish exchange, with that typical tension that you would expect of newly divorcing people, it would soon escalate in a matter of seconds to something well beyond just frustration with one another. She was very, very clear to start that she in fact shot Thomas, and the reason why was because she was absolutely positively terrified of him, and he was demanding that she talked to him more in depth after he got the children, and she told him, no, no, I don't want to do this. I'm giving you the kids. I'm not going to talk to you. I don't want to fight, I don't want any of that. I don't want any interaction with you besides exchanging the children. I just was trying to leave and telling him no. And when I told him no, and when I rejected him and refused to speak, that's when Thomas just he snapped and he got extremely angry at her dismissal of him, and that's when he turned very aggressive towards her. He became very irate and was acting completely I don't want to say out of character,

23:59 but not not. What she wanted. He was very irate with her. So, in continuing that conversation, the detective was basically trying to get Kayla to pinpoint exactly what scared her and exactly what Thomas did that was so bad that she would feel like her only option was to shoot him. And this is. Important because she absolutely can be afraid, you can be afraid of anybody, but you've got to be able to articulate to this detective what exactly took place. So I think that's a fair assessment or a question by this detective. So when he asks this, Kayla at that point was answering in more generalities than specifics about their relationship issues, So things like, oh, well he's you know, he's always very loud and yelling and mean and aggressive. Well, that's not a specific in the moment, and he was trying to narrow it down to the moment that it took place.

24:59 So when pressured more in that regard, she eventually said, and this is a direct quote, he was coming after me and he called me a bitch twice. So the detective kind of saddleness for a second before asking her, you shot a man because he called you a bitch. And I gotta say to sche Bro, like, if I shot someone every time they called me a bitch, bruh, I'd have a body count like none other. Not because I'm a bitch, but because I can totally turn one if need be, as can I think most of us. But Kayla then went on to explain in more depth that she had been scared of Thomas because he was continuously doing things to intimidate her. And then she was very specific that he had even hurt her in the past on multiple occasions. And the shooting happened because when she was wanting to leave, Thomas was wanting to continue talking and she declined that, which made him do this thing he did where he became enraged and wanted her to do what he wanted her to do and there was no other option whenever he got mad, basically specifics breaking it down. After placing the girls in his truck, he then came back to her vehicle. She said he ripped open her driver's side door, at which point he came inside, jumping on her or at her and screaming.

26:29 It was absolutely terrifying. She said. It scared the living shit out of her. She was panicked. She just was afraid that he was literally gonna kill her. Now, remember he's considerably larger than her. He's also training an MMA, which is mixed martial arts. If that's not something that you follow, and these small details adding up do matter whenever there's violence that takes place. So at this point, while calling you a bitch, and ripping open your door are probably frowned upon as we can all agree, does that really constitute shooting someone? Well, this is where this totality of circumstances is going to come into play when the detectives are investigating. And I want to go through this with you as my listeners, because people who aren't familiar with law enforcement or have never really actually understood how an investigation takes place.

27:22 These are the things that happen, These are the things that matter. So was it possible that there was more that needed to be looked at to understand why she was so seemingly quick to pull the trigger and kill someone. On top of that, was she quick to actually pull the trigger or did she have to in that moment to avoid impending violence and serious violence at that So, Kayla, in further discussion, was able to outline some specifics of the incidences that she said took place previously, which were the things that led up to why she would so terrified of Thomas. She told the detective that Thomas was known to hit her in the past and that this was nothing new. And this is when specifics questions were asked about documentation in these incidences. Things like, Okay, did you take photos of the abuse and the damage that was done to your body? And she said no. Did you ever go to the doctor for your injuries that he caused you? Again she said no. She did explain that she shared those incidents or those events with her friends and some family, but when the detectives asked her who they were, she was hesitant to give up the names.

28:44 But here's the thing. Nothing in life is black or white. I would love it to be that way, but nothing is black or white. There's a whole lot of gray out there in this world. So was she being evasive because she was lying, or was she telling the truth but not wanting to get her friends or family involved in this horrid situation. I know we all go back to what would we do? I do that, how would I act? But I always assume that I'm a prudent and a level headed thinker. But experiences will change how we interpret things. So this was going to be the detective's job to muddle through and to figure out. But here's the other thing. The detective decided to go and check the report's database for any police reports of the abuse that had taken place over these last four years, but there was nothing in there of Kayla making a report on Thomas. What was there were two documented reports from Thomas alleging that Kayla had been allegedly violent during prior custody exchanges with the kids. So this is kind of going to raise some eyebrows. To be specific, one of these incidentss was at a Kroger and another one was at a parking lot of a of a tattoo parlor. So, continuing in their questioning, police asked Kayla if they could see her phone, to which she declined, but y'all stop stop, okay,

30:18 this isn't like in your face obvious stuff, Because in Kayla's mind, she felt like the questioning had become pretty contentious, and so when they asked for her phone, she became pretty defensive at the way that they were questioning her, and she said, look, I don't like the way that I'm being treated in this room, and so no, I'm not going to give you my phone. I don't like the way that you're talking to me. I don't like the way that you're you're treating me. So for detectives to do a full investigation, they would need a search warrant for a lot of things. Plus they would need to search out things like surveillance tape to see if that possibly existed, and they wanted to review everything to try to figure out what went on. But believe it or not, Walmart's cameras did not catch the event. There was video, but it was not at a good angle, and I think it was from too far of a distance if I remember correctly. But Walmart's video was not very good. So looking around the scene, detectives wanted to see if they could find someone else maybe that would have video. And they looked out and they noticed that there was a Sonic food chain next door to Walmart and they did have a camera. Police could see it.

31:35 They did have a camera on the side of the building and luckily it was facing the direction where the shooting had taken place. This is awesome, So detectives go over there and they asked to review the tape, and sure enough, there was a video right there at the right angle. Now, detectives watched as the event unfolded. But I have to tell you there are some obvious issues with this video as well. And I'll tell you I watched it myself, so I can confirm the following things. That detectives would say. Number One, it is from a very far distance, so it is not completely clear. Also, even if the video was clear, like in a moment, it's almost like if the wind blew, or maybe if it was just pixelating or something like that, but it would go from from.

32:31 Clear to fuzzy, back to clear to fuzzy. And I can't tell if it's necessarily the wind, maybe shaking the camera or what, but it's not one hundred percent clear the entire time. Another issue is that the angle of the video cuts off the top of the cars as it's unfolding. As the event is unfolding, however, you can tell what is happening in general. So here's what the video shows. There are two narrow driveways that are running parallel to one another with a grassy median in between them. Very well manicured, very clean looking area. And if you're from this area, it was on Coliseum Boulevard to be specific. It was light outside, very nice day in terms of weather. Picture perfect honestly. And in the upper left portion of the video, this is where you can see the two of them drive up in separate vehicles.

33:26 Kayla is in a. Gray four door Dodge Durango suv and Thomas is in a white Chevy truck. It looks to me to be a Silverado and probably has a few inch lift kit on it. So when they pull up, they're basically facing each other, and then when they come to park, they're parking in opposite directions. So what I'm trying to tell you is their driver side door to driver side door, so you'll understand what I mean here, And his truck is a little bit further towards the back of her vehicle, So I hope that kind of gives you a visual there of how the vehicles are parked. Now, understanding the video cuts off right at the at the you know, towards the bottom of the vehicle windows. You really can only see their bottom halves of their bodies during most of the exchange. Now, I want you to ask yourself something real quick. How do people move in stressful situations?

34:25 I want you to really think about this for a second before I go further. I know that you know I'm a When I'm relaxed and I'm in a non stressful situation, I'm not rushing around. I'm usually just doing my thing. But if I were to get excited, whether I got spooped, you know, scared, or if I'm being playful with someone, which I am a playful person, and so I'll jump at people and stuff. That's just my style. If I were to get excited, whether it was playful or fearful, whatever, for some reason, I would believe that I would become more furtive in my movements or quicker in my a A furtive, by the way, means let's say this is a totally different hypothetical. But let's say like there's a guy walking down the street at night, and he's got his hoodie up and he's walking, and then a police car happens to pull up in front of him, and then all of a sudden, he turns around the opposite direction and starts walking the other way.

35:16 That's a furtive movement. It's just an unnatural movement. That's what I would think would happen. I'm calm and collected, kind of bebopping along. But if I'm scared or excited, then all of a sudden, you might see me get a little more jerky. In in my movements. And I think most reasonable people would agree that that's how we as humans operate. If you disagree, that's fine, let me know on Facebook or message be on Patreon, whatever. But that's what I think most of us would do. So with that in mind, as the video unfolds, Thomas gets out. He appears to. Be in shorts and a hoodie. Possibly Again it's from a far distance and it gets grainy, but both of them are out of the vehicle at one point, and they're kind of moving between the two vehicles. I don't personally see any type of movements that look fast or jumping or lunging or furtive. I don't personally see that.

36:11 But as a podcaster, I think it's my duty and it's my obligation to say, why don't you watch the video? Why don't you go see what you see? Because that's what detectives are doing. They're looking at it and assessing what do they see when this event is going down. And I will post this, by the way, on Patreon for you so you can go look at it. So both of them are out and moving between the vehicles. Like I said, nothing looks suspicious, and I watched it not only multiple times, but I also zoomed in as I did so, and the thing I'll post for you on Patreon. Is I've zoomed in so that you can get a really zoomed in look too. But what I do see is, at some point after the girls are transferred, I do see Kayla move back towards her car and get into the driver side seat, at which point Thomas does turn and follow her to that door. Now I cannot tell. I'm not sure if he pulls the latch and he tries to open the door, or if the door is still already a jar. I also can't tell if he just pulls a latch once or if it's just an easy tug, or if he's jerking on the door.

37:23 I can't tell. I can't see that. But within literal seconds of him touching the door or going towards the door, you see him, You see the door kind of come open, and then he literally, without exaggeration, he literally flies backwards very quickly in the frame, and then he collapses and he's falling. He's the falling backward is faster than any movement that I see during the entire video, minus cars that are driving by. As this takes place. So what I'm I'm just basically trying to evoke to you is that the motions and movements of everybody seems very normal. And then the fastest thing that I see is him fly back whenever the shot rings out. But because there's no good sound and the video is grainy, what Kayla says was happening could be true. It's not like what she is saying is like, oh, that didn't happen.

38:23 I mean, watching the video, it definitely looks like what she is saying could be true. But it's like there's not enough to come to a conclusion one way or another as to whether Thomas is just speaking with her or whether he's jerking on the door or not. I'm telling you, I really did look at this hard for you, and I just don't have enough to come to a conclusion at this point in the storytelling. I'm gonna tell. You I'd be fifty to fifty if I had decide right now, I would be fifty to fifty on what's going on now in a court of law, all right, if if you were to have to say whether she was guilty or not of like murdering him, per se, you cannot be fifty to fifty.

39:08 You have to. Be beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone on this. So we have two things, and I don't mean to be teaching, but I want you to understand why I'm breaking it down. We have a preponderance of evidence, and then we have beyond a reasonable doubt. So a preponderance of evidence would be more likely than not beyond a reasonable doubt. Means you may not have one hundred percent certainty of exactly what happened one hundred percent, but you're beyond that doubt that whatever happened was wrong. Okay, so just keep that in mind. What I found most interesting were three specific things, three things that I'm going to share with you because one in particular, I have not heard brought up anywhere that I've looked, anywhere that I've read, and I thought it was important to share it with you.

39:58 So Number one, the time between him approaching the door of Kayla's to the time that she pulled the trigger. What the question here is what is reasonable to believe would be an appropriate amount of time for that to happen, because multiple things had to have happened before she shoots the gun. Number one, put yourself in this situation and I'm gonna play. I'm gonna play it objectively here. Let's say that he is attacking her. I'm not saying he is. I'm not saying he isn't right now, But let's say that he is attacking her. Number One, her brain has to have time to assess the threat level. Number two, her brain then has to react to that threat level.

40:47 And action is always faster than reaction, So she has to assess the threat level. Her brain has to react to that said threat, which means obtaining the weapon that she had, the gun that she had for protection. So if they were arguing and he wanted to talk more, she could have turned and gone to the car to get away. I will give her that benefit of the doubt on this one. She could have just gone to the car to get away from him. And then if he was flipping out you can't tell from the video, and he began to rage like she said. This brings about my second issue to consider. How did she obtain the weapon so fast? Why do I bring this up? Well, it's because, in her own words, she told the police that she kept the gun in her driver's side door and it was in a holster. So if you're familiar with guns, your law enforcement or maybe you're just you're open carry or whatever it is that you do conceal carry.

41:48 I don't care whatever. All right, you should right now at this moment, see what the obvious issue is. Okay, if not, that's what I'm here for. How the hell did you jump in the car, grab the gun, remove it from its holster, and then not only aim, but fire and hit him in a mirror two to three second time frame. Now, if this is the movie is I know what you're thinking. Oh, well, she just grabbed the gun, she pulled it out, and she shot. Great. Love that. But I'm going to tell you this, and I've had a lot of practice doing this, even in law enforcement work.

42:31 Law enforcement officers. Literally practice holster withdrawals because we want to ensure quickness in doing things under pressure. And that's the key under pressure. When you are under pressure, you lose your your finite reflexes. When you are under extreme pressure and you feel like you're about to fight for your life, you know, your eyes widened to take in what you're seeing, your heart's going to are pumping faster, and all your blood is going to actually pull you from your fingers and from your extremities because it wants to focus on survival, and all that blood is pulling into your heart to send it to your brain and to these vital organs, so your finite reflexes become very difficult.

43:17 All right. So police train for this because you don't want to lose that if you're in a fight for your life. So even for someone who is trained, you still practice that to make it fluid. Well, this is someone who is not professionally trained, so I would say untrained to assess the threat. And I doubt she sat at home practicing withdraws from her holster. But even if she did, even if she did have a holster and she practiced withdraw it from it, this is the other issue I see. Your holster has to be on your person, attached to give you something to push against and pull on the withdrawal.

43:59 So if the gun was a holster in her door, that means she had to grab it out of the door, pocket, hold it with one hand, and then pull the gun out and then turn and then aim and fire all of that after assessing the threat. And he's on top of her. Okay, this is just how I'm breaking it down. So to me, it seems like she would have had to have been prepared almost in a way and maybe have already deholstered the weapon for this to go down as fast as it did. And again that's my perception of things at this point in the video. My third issue is this, okay, and this is the one that I haven't heard anyone bring up, and I want to bring it up. My listeners know this. I'm a mother, and I am a fiercely, fiercely protective mother at that and I make no apologies for it, and I never will.

44:49 And considering the dynamics of this family, only one child was biologically Thomas's, thus he only had a right to that one specific child. With Kayla expressing how afraid of Thomas she was and how he had hurt her in the past so many times, and that she was just so afraid she had to get a gun. She's that scared. Why on earth would you be willing to not only meet this man, but also hand over the other two minor children to spend time with him.

45:30 That is something that is just hung with me for a long time. While I was writing this episode, I'm like, I don't think I'd be doing that. He has a propensity for violence. I'm not handing over to additional children to him, no, let alone. I don't want to give over the one. Child we share. Do you agree with that? Maybe you don't. That's where I'm at and I just can't get past it. And I know someone will be thinking right now, oh, well, he never hurt the kids, so maybe that's why to me irrelevant, irrelevant if you you are scared enough that you think you need to purchase a gun to defend yourself, which means you think you might have to kill this man potentially now. And she shot in the direction of.

46:11 Her children, by the way, too, like the children in the truck, and she's between he's between her and the children. Okay, then I just don't can't. I can't get behind that. You don't want to You wouldn't risk yourself not to mention your children. If this is the level of abuse, I just can't get behind that thought process. That's me, you do you, It's America. But this is where things. Get a little bit more gray, because what is going to be brought up at this point is the concept of battered women or battered woman's syndrome. Okay, this does come into play in this case. And let me start by saying this, I want hundred percent, one hundred percent agree that battered woman's syndrome is real. I am not. Disputing that fact at all. There's no doubt in my mind that when people judge women from their own non abused standpoint, of course, a batter woman's decision making may look squirrely to you. Perception is everything in this world.

47:06 Experience is everything in this world. So for the sake of acting as basically a juror in assessing this situation, I want to explain a few things to you about battered women's syndrome that you may want to take intoc count while you're thinking through this one. There are signs and symptoms that have commonalities in battered woman's syndrome. So to be a battered woman and have that syndrome the psychological effects of experiencing persistent domestic or intimate partner violence. That is the definition per the American Psychological Association. I didn't want to put it into my own words because I want you to have a very valid explanation of it. And these signs and symptoms, they can vary, but there are commonalities that are undisputed. Okay, I'm just going to tell you a couple of them. The first one is fear.

47:54 Healthy relationships do not leave you feeling like you are walking on eggshells. Only abusive ones do. I hope that we can all agree on that. Well, Kayla was expressing how fearful she was of Thomas, so much so that she had gotten a gun for protection, so that one we might could check off and say, all right, I got you. Lack of control. That is the next one. Healthy relationships are in general a fifty to fifty. Okay, it may go a little bit more or less in one direction, but abusive relationships typically have one partner who holds the the only deciding vote in what happens in that relationship relationship, and I'm not sure I'm seeing that based on what we have discussed thus far. The next one would be isolation. And this one's huge because people who are living in abusive relationships often become isolated, and it can be for different reasons. Either shame of their situation and they don't want people to see them with bruises and things like that, or they may pull away away from family and friends because the abuser demands it or requires that you know or convinces you that your friends aren't good friends or whatever. Okay, but that isolation comes into play well for me. It seems that they both were kind of doling out the drama, whether with cause or not, to this point, I know, I haven't given you everything yet. And then the psychological shifts of

49:25 a battered woman, Okay, over time, they're going to show shifts in their personality. Sometimes in their mental health. You'll see increased depression, anxiety, guilt, shame, all of these things. And I'm not quite seeing that either in Kayla's behavior. And I will expand on this later on more in depth. But the last one that I want to point out, and this one sticks out to me, is that battered women often miss work or other obligations. And the reason that is is because they feel a drive to protect not only themselves, but to protect children in these abusive relationships.

50:06 Abused people are commonly known to miss work or to often cancel plans because they are just trying to keep the peace at home. They want to stay back, they want to protect the children. So that's where I come to this conclusion of Okay, a court order to exchange your child, I totally get it, But bringing additional kids to the abuser really, like, really, you were so scared that you ended up killing him. He's dead, but you would hand over your five and seven year old to him. This is where I started thinking, all right, something kind of stinks here. Not necessarily at this point do I think pure evil or anything at this juncture. But that said, let's discuss the children for a second. When children are involved in or they witness a traumatic violent event, it's common for their account of things to matter in the investigation into the police credit that's what the police did.

51:02 What these kids saw could. Be beyond helpful, and that small children aren't necessarily going to understand the full consequences if any of telling what they saw. They don't know to filter, they don't know that they shouldn't say certain things. They're little. So what's typically done is these kids are brought into what's called a CAAC interview, or they go to the Child Advocacy Center and interviews of these children are done there. Now, these interviews are not going to be done like adults. Okay, it's not an interrogation like or anything. It's designed that these kids will remain feeling calm, they're not scared, they're not pushed into answering these direct questions. The rooms are fun and they're colorful, and there's crayons and couches and stuffed animals, everything that a police station is not. And this is on purpose. A trained interviewer will go in with these kids and this did happen in this case and interview the children. But it's more common versational in approach, and it's after they've met this child for a little while and they get comfortable with one another. But they do not lead with their questioning, so they're a little more vague, and the child's answer is all dependent on what the child gives up. So, for example, the kids saw their dad get shot, but the interviewer is not going to flat out say, hey, what happened when your mom shot your dad, because that's gonna that's so forceful, that's so like jarring for the child.

52:32 It would go more along the lines. Of, hey, you were supposed to go to a birthday party yesterday, weren't you. Wow, what happened at the birthday party? And then obviously the child would explain, oh, we never went to the birthday party, Oh well why not? And then they'll say, oh my dad got shot, Oh wow, what happened? And they let it snowball. But the child really takes the lead on how they answer. Very conversational, not confrontational. Well, like I said, the oldest child specifically I'm going to talk about, was questioned in a CAC interview and the answers that she gave were pretty solid insofar as what they saw historically happened between their two parents. Everything in this in this interrogation or this interview was videotaped, by the way it always is, and this seven year old daughter at one point during this, uh, this questioning, there was a loud boom that happened outside of the room.

53:26 I don't know what it was, but it was startling. It was a loud boom. Well, after that noise was made, the child then starts talking to the interviewer, saying, basically the loud noise reminded her about the shooting that had taken place of her, of her stepdad, and so as far as what she saw, she tells the interviewer that she saw the door to Thomas's truck, which is what they they called him, was Thomas. They were in his truck. She said the door was open whenever the shooting happened. She said that she did not recall anything in terms of conversation between her mom and Thomas. She didn't remember them saying anything, but she did give an account of what was happening. And this is a direct quote. She said, Thomas was in front of mama. He was jumping at her, and then Mama grabbed a gun and then she holds her hand up kind of and she goes boom, boom, boom or click click click, and kind of makes the noise of the gun.

54:29 Right after the boom, she said she saw a puff of smoke and then Thomas fell back against his truck. He grabbed his chest and then he collapsed to the ground. That's when her mama called nine one one, and she said her mama kept saying, I can't touch him, I can't touch him. Before she then came over to the truck and then really was trying to distract them from seeing him on the ground. Now, again, those are my words, not how the child said it. So the child's account really seemed to line up perfectly with the video, minus the blurry spot the viewer can't quite make out at the exact time of what Thomas does at the driver's side door of her mama, and the child was then indirectly asked about any violence that she may have seen between her mama and Thomas. You know. Ever, and the child very matter of factly was able to recount it.

55:23 And she remembered her mama throwing a pan at Thomas one time, like a frying pan, threw it at him. One time. She remembered Thomas jumping at her mom. Now, whether this is the jumping at the shooting incident or a different time, I'm not sure. I'm not even pretend I know, but she did mention Thomas jumping at her mama. She also remembered one time her mom got hit in the leg, as well as her mom turning around and hitting Thomas. Now, this is going to be important, don't forget that, because this kid is a frickin' just genius. As far as recounting things that she saw, she's a good witness. But needless to say, whatever is going on, this child had experienced domestic violence to some extent prior to and then up to this shooting. And what she was saying was that both of them were susceptible to pushing each other.

56:18 Around at minimum is what I gather. So detectives now wanted to check the history between the two, and more information would come to light that also backed up the child's statements, specifically court records. We already know that there was a custody hearing that had taken place, given them each roughly fifty to fifty. But eight days after the custody hearing, Thomas had requested a new hearing about custody. That means just a week past and he was. Back wanting to go back before the judge. So detectives are want to know why why would you need another custody hearing just eight days later? But that's because Thomas was now claiming to the courts that Kayla had turned violet during their last child exchange. So I know you want to know more specifics of what happened, because I did two.

57:05 So here's the answer. I wasn't there, I wasn't in court, and I wasn't there when the exchange happened. But I can tell you what Thomas's claim was. He said that Kyle slapped him in the face during the child exchange. And I want to stop here for a second. And say, look, we all know divorce sucks. It makes people sometimes act out of the side of their normal character, and it also makes people on both sides become almost all or nothing on who is right and who is wrong. If you've been through divorce, you know what I'm saying and what I'm trying to get out here is I don't for one second think that they pulled up and she got out, just walked up slapped Thomas across the face out of nowhere. I could be wrong, but I just don't believe that in my gut.

57:51 Usually the truth is going to lie in a dispute somewhere between what both sides claim. He's going to put his. Best version for forward, She's going to put her best version forward, and the truth is going to be somewhere in between. Well, this was the court's job to decipher. Now. Thomas explained that at this exchange that had just taken place, and now eight days had passed, he leaned in to give these girls all a hug goodbye and was going to leave for work. And when he did, that's when Kayla turned around and slapped him on the left side of the face. Now in rebuttal to that claim, Kayla had a bit more to say as far as what she says happened. She said that Thomas slammed her leg in the car door, and in retaliation, that's when she slapped him in the face. Now, this sounds personally to me on par to the average objective person and how they would think one thing probably sparked another. However, this is a true crime podcast, y'all, and I think we have an obligation to think like a juror. And my question here is, what do you think is the most probable thing that happened based on the evidence so far?

59:03 Hopefully you thought. To yourself just now, I'm not actually quite sure what happened or why it happened. I think I need a little bit more information. And if you thought that, I'm going to tell you I think that's completely appropriate because only claims have been made by both sides at this point. So would police be able to shure up this case before trial? So many unanswered questions were there that a jury would most certainly require answers to in order to convict. Because I'm going to tell you this, they do place Kayla under arrest and charge her with second degree murder of her soon to be ex husband. So she sent off to jail, but detectives realize they've got to have more if they're going to get her convicted. Do you think my question here is that do you think Kayla was justified.

1:00:00 In the shooting of Thomas? Do you think at this point in this story that the case is solid enough that you, as a juror, could convict Kayla for murdering Thomas? Because remember, if you're charged with second degree murder in Louisiana, that carries a maximum sentence of life in prison. It's a very steep penalty. Where are you right now based on the evidence I've given you, Well, if you think you know one way or the other, you may want to just pump the brakes real quick for a second, because police are about to find out some information that's going to turn this case completely upside down. Because one thing we know is that failure to advise is the same thing as keeping a secret. And you know what they say, two people can always keep a secret as long as one of them is dead.