House of Horrors: Fred & Rosemary West | Unspeakable Podcast by Kelly Jennings

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Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime
podcast where I tell stories of real crimes

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with real victims, whose cases are
so shocking that many are left wondering how

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is this even real? I use
my experiences in law enforcement corrections, and

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combined with my years as a criminal
justice educator, dig deep into complex cases

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of evil acts, some so evil
many feel they are unspeakable. Warning.

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Unspeakable as intended for mature audiences.
If you are easily offended, then I'm

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not your girl. Listening discretion is
advised. Hey, y'all, welcome back

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to another episode of Unspeakable. What's
going on? I'm so glad to have

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you here. I'm feeling good and
I've got a pretty good, I think

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a pretty good episode for you today. Before we get started, though,

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I wanted to tell y'all that quarterly
gifts are coming up in December, so

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get ready for that. I've got
some good stuff coming your way and shirts,

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don't forget. You can go to
unspeakablethepodcast dot com and you can find

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all my merch there and you can
order online and it's pretty simple thing to

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do. I've got something else coming
out for my Patreon members. It's gonna

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be members only glasses, but this
time it's whiskey glasses, not wine glasses,

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so through more inclined to those.
They'll be available pretty soon. But

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I also have an all listener opportunity
where I'm gonna put out my hey,

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y'all, Mason Jar glasses and they
have like a little handle on my little

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country self saying hey, y'all,
I thought i'd commemorate that putting it on

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a glass, So look for that. So glad that y'all like the stuff

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on putting out, and I hope
that you'll get you something if it tickles

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your fancy. But before I start
the episode, I do have some shout

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outs I want to give, starting
with Miss Samantha England all the way from

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Kentucky. Hey, Samantha, how
are you? I want to call you

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Sam. I don't know if you
go by that though, so don't want

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to make you mad, But hey, Sam, if you like it,

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if you don't ignore that. Miss
Mary Ballard, I'm so tickled Miss Mary.

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I know you, you know me. She's a local girl from Denham

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and I'm so always so impressed with
her. She has a son that has

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Down syndrome and I follow him.
His name is Christopher, and I just

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love watching this kid thrive. He
actually graduated high school, he went to

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college, graduated from college, and
he is doing big things. So even

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though he wasn't listed on here,
Miss Mary, please tell Christopher I said

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hey, and let him listen to
my shout out and tell him I'm his

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biggest fan. And I love watching
him dance when he works at the grocery

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store. So he's just a triple
threat. Okay, intelligent, he dances,

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and he graduates college. So hey
boy, how are you? And

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hey, miss Mary, thank you
so much for your continued support. I

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really appreciate you. And then Oregon, what I've got Shane Bowen from Oregon.

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Hey, Shane, thank you so
much for joining. So glad to

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have you as well as Miss Laurie. Is it Elias because that's my nephew's

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last name, E L I A
S. I mean that's his first name,

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it's your last name. But hey, Laurie, how are you doing

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all the way from Clinton, Louisiana, A little drive down the road.

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I'm so glad to have you as
well. And last but not least,

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all the way from California, Miss
Holly Pritchett, Hey, Holly, how

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are things in Cali? I've never
been there. I want to go.

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I want to go check it out. I feel like there's some aren't there

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some wineries there? I might,
I might would really enjoyed them, So

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I might have to take it on
to Cali. But hey, girl,

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thank y'all so much. Your support
means everything. And I was thinking about

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it this morning. When the day
comes where I'm able to podcast full time,

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it is on like fricking donkey Kong. I'm gonna be rolling out more

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episodes than your heads could even muster
the strength to listen to. But I

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can't do it yet. I'm still
a full time teacher. So I'm doing

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my best, and I'm gonna go
ahead and get started on this episode.

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Now. I don't know if you've
ever heard of Rosemary lets but I'm gonna

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give you all the information I found
on this thing here. Now, Rosemary

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Letts, she went by Rose too, but she was the fifth of seven

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children born to a working class,
you know, family, and something that

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was kind of important in her life
to note was that her parents both suffered

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with extreme mental health issues. And
you know how difficult that can be to

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deal with when people are, you
know, having struggles mentally, and then

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they're raising obviously a whole gaggle of
kids here. But it's also reported that

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her father physically tormented the family and
regularly sexually abused Rose and her sisters.

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So she's kind of got a lot
happening here in childhood. And she was

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born in nineteen fifty three, so
she you know, she's older than I

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am. But something that was commented
on that I thought i'd released too is

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that you know, when mom has
mental illness and she's pregnant, that number

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one is a bad combo, but
also when she has a problematic pregnancy,

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that just adds to the frustration and
the and the problems that you know,

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pregnant women would deal with. And
I remember this. I had a problematic

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pregnancy with my first child because I
was sicker than shit and I was a

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hot mess, a hot you know
case, glass case of emotion, whatever

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you want to call it. But
I was sicker than crap, pukean all

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of the time. But I didn't
have mental illness. I mean, my

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husband might say I did, but
I don't think I did. But uh,

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just going through a whole lot of
things, and then in order to

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try to help herself. Rose's mom, while pregnant with her, went and

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got electro convulsive therapy for deep,
deep depression. So arguments were made that,

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hey, and I'd say for good
cause, that maybe this affected Rose.

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You know that her mom had this
this electro therapy done and something that

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that you know, as Rose was
growing, she didn't do too well in

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school, okay, and so she
had this lackluster performance. She didn't seem

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like she was the top of the
intelligence chain there, and a lot of

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people were like, oh, what
must because her mom had that electric convulsive

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therapy. So curiosity did get the
best of me on this one. So

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I did research it a little bit, and I found out that science actually

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completely disagrees with what I would have
thought and what a lot of people say

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in terms of electro therapy to a
fetus. So I went to the National

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Library of Medicine and it said that
the indication and appropriateness of electroconvulsive therapy and

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pregnancy must be carefully weighed against the
risks of an untreated mental illness and those

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of alternative treatment options. Well,
her mother was considered to be of high

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risk, okay, but mental illness
and depression on top of problematic pregnancy.

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But according to them, it says
the safety of this therapy and pregnancy has

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been documented for over fifty years,
and the adverse effects on the fetus are

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similar to the risks in any individual, And the most common risk that they

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came up with was that the mother
might have premature contractions or premature labor.

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But you know, other than that, there was no association of electroconvulsive therapy

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with congenital anomalies or any type of
morphological or behavioral issues in the fetuses after

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it, So it kind of seems
like science was like, no, she

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should have been just fine. So
you kind of have to poo poo that

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idea that was put out there.
Okay, so maybe this therapy wasn't a

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factor in her poor performance whenever she
was growing up, But there was a

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whole lot more going on in Rosa's
life than just a poor performance in school.

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Something that was noted was that she
seemed overly aggressive compared to other girls

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her age as she was growing up. In combination with that was that she

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suffered a weight problem, and so
it seemed like she had a whole lot

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of problems that she was dealing with
She was hyper aggressive, and she was

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overweight, and so she was,
you know, a little on the on

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the edgy side. And I'm sure
that alone would have been really difficult to

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navigate, even if you had proper
support from parents to guide you. But

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then you add the mental illness of
her parents, and you mix that with

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these other problems, and you could
see how maybe this girl was gonna end

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up going down a problematic path.
Another issue with little miss Rose was that

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at a really really young age,
she was showing a very obvious interest in

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older men. So you know that
that sent me kind of in the throes

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of an endless rabbit hole, because
I'm like, I want to give good

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information about why, you know,
why do young girls seem to not all

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of them, but why did they
seem to think that older men are attractive?

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Right, especially when they're young,
and they don't they don't shop within

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their own age, you know,
age bracket. And so simply put,

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what I found, based on some
psychology websites and articles and things that I

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read, is that ultimately it's just
that they crave stability. It's a misappropriated

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a relationship where they think that they're
misappropriating the stability that they want with love

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and sex and that sexual attention from
an older male. So most people,

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you know, they're going to spend
their younger years, you know, figuring

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themselves out. And something that's attractive
to a young person who's coming from instability

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is that older men seem to already
have it worked out right. I mean,

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they may seem well established professionally,
and then financially they're in a better

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position and personally speaking, they're in
a much better position than the young girls

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would be. So if you're attracted
to that, it would make total sense

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to me. Success can make you
feel protected in a relationship, like if

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you needed help, he could take
care of you. Specifically in place is

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where it's like he's super successful in
his career. He might be able to

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discuss fascinating, you know, things
that he's done or that he's been through

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that you, as a young person, haven't yet experienced. He might have

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a nice home or his apartment might
be well furnished, and he's had years

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to make this environment that would seem
really really advanced to a young girl.

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And the fact that he's settled financially, the risk taking is less and it

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just seems way more stable. But
the problem is that's what a young girl

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should be looking for in a male
figure, father figure, and instead you're

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looking at it as a sexual figure, but fulfilling the father roles. AKA,

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we all talk about daddy issues.
That's pretty much what I just summed

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up for you. She got some
daddy issues. She looks for an older

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man to fulfill that void. So
it makes sense to me, your dad

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can't provide what you're wanting, so
you search it out. But that sexual

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component is added. And this would
have been even more enticing to a young

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Rose, Okay, and more entice
because her marriage, her parents marriage was

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described as an extremely turbulent marriage and
her father was also diagnosed as a paranoid

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schizophrenic. So just I don't know, just a young person trying to figure

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out life and you're dealing with this
level of craziness. I could see how

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that could kind of jack somebody up. Now, because of this diagnosis,

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it left him prone to violent behaviors. And Rose would say that these violent

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behaviors, she would say, were
like a dictatorship, and that Rose would

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be constantly, you know, terrified
during these episodes, and she kind of

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would cower, and she would bend
and do whatever her dad told her to

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do. Now we have these things
just for craps and giggles, I'll tell

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you called protective factors and risk factors, and this crazy dynamic would weigh heavily

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on the side of risk factors for
Rose, because it means when you don't

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have stability and you can't depend on
your parents and then you're in a fearful

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state that puts you at risk for
more risky behaviors or doing things that are

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outside of the normal age, you
know, activities. But one protective factor

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that Rose did have was the fact
that her mother, her name was Daisy,

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eventually left her father. That would
have been great, you know,

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and she took Rose with her,
so she was able to separate her from

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her father. But unfortunately that one
good step her mother took would be short

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lived and they would move back in
with her father rather quickly, so it

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was like she got to escape,
but then rather quickly was brought right back

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into the situation they just left.
And about that same time, Rose would

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have been fifteen years old, so
a young teen trying to figure out her

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life, and that is when she
would meet a man named Fred West,

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and they met at a bus station
and quickly would begin a sexual relationship.

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Now, one big issue that may
strike you as it struck me, is

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that Rose was fifteen and Fred was
in his late twenties, like twenty eight

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to twenty nine. You know,
pedophile much. It's a young girl,

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you're a grown ass man. Either
way, way too damn old, way

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too old for a sixteen year old
to be starting a relationship with. Added

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to that insult would be the injury
that not only was he too damn old,

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but he was married. So we
have a married man out here,

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you know, running the streets,
cheating on his wife and hooking up with

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a fifteen year old girl. He's
gross amongst other terms I could use,

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but gross comes to mind. So
he was married to a girl that or

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a woman that they called Rena.
Now Rena was not her real name,

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but that was the name that she
went by, but Rena Costello. And

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together Fred and Reno Rena had two
kids. But very quickly their relationship kind

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of had soured and she would end
up leaving him because she said, you

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know, domestic abuse was at an
all time high in this relationship, and

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she didn't want to deal with it. So a grown woman dealing with an

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abuser is one thing, right,
but a young girl of fifteen taking on

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this type of man is a whole
different ballgame, a different world, and

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something I would argue she's not prepared
nor ready to take on. So she

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likely looked up to him right like
I just mentioned, and felt as though

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he would act as a protector of
her, something she liked in her father,

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and she needed that, right,
She needed somebody that was going to

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say you matter, you're important,
I love you. The problem is he's

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a thirty thing near thirty year old
man who's married, and that's not where

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you probably need to go when you're
searching for a partner, all right.

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So the reality was, though whatever
his issues may have been, her father

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objected heavily to the two of them
being together. So even if he was

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a paranoid schizophrenic, even if he
was mean and tormented her, he still

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had the mindset to say that ain't
good and he's too old for my daughter.

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But it was just of no use. Rose was gonna do what Rose

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wanted to do. So she was
rather strong willed, And something else that

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I noted was that she seemed to
lack the regular level of fear that a

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teen would have in response to her
father's wishes. I'm not saying all teens

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are going to agree with her dad, obviously, right, young girls know

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everything and dads know nothing. But
she did not have that healthy fear of

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her dad of where maybe I ought
to do what he says. She didn't

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have it at all, Like it
was gone and she had been doing what

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00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.159
she wanted for a while. Now
Daddy wasn't going to change that, even

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so far as she was displaying troubling
sexual like sexually charged behaviors. And it

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00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.919
was kind of strange, like she
had no objections to displaying herself in the

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nude, like no shame to walk
about the house naked as a fifteen year

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old girl in front of her father
or her mother or any of her siblings.

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00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.200
And that's a bit troubling. You
know, an ounce of modesty is

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worth something. But she didn't have
it, and she didn't care. Was

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00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:29.080
it rebellion, I don't know.
Was it just a sense of I can

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00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:32.440
control who sees what on me since
I can't control anything externally, I don't

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00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:34.320
know. You can figure that out
for yourself and decide, but either way,

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00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:40.879
she didn't have that modesty about her
and there were other troubling behaviors that

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00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:45.000
she was displaying as a young girl
too. Reportedly, she molested her younger

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brothers. And something a lot of
people don't realize is that sexual abuse amongst

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00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:56.679
siblings happens way more frequently than people
realize. And there's even some research that

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00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:03.559
suggests that the most common form of
child sexual abuse with sibling abuse occurs up

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00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:08.680
to three times more often than sexual
abuse by a parent. So we hear

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00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:11.880
all the stories of parents abusing kids
sexually and we're horrified by that. What

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00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.319
if we multiplied at times three and
we're having to look at the siblings,

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right, And so, just to
explain this to you, why would a

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00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:25.559
young girl molest her younger brothers?
And it's really, I think tied back

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to the lack of control with her
father and the lack of power she felt.

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Because sibling sexual abuse, y'all,
is all about power. It's very

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00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:38.200
rarely about pleasure. So you know, research would even indicate that the misuse

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00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:44.799
of power is present in most siblings
sexual abuse cases. And when thinking of

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00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.480
power, someone in a parent role
may be the first to come to mind,

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00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:51.599
right, because you're the adult and
you're supposed to be in charge,

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00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:56.240
but siblings can be in a a
position of power as well, and often

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00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.880
when you're the older in age and
you're more advanced developmentally, that would make

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00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:06.200
sense that Rose would be the one
that would abused her younger brothers. Not

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00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:11.200
saying it's right, just psychologically speaking, I guess it falls into place.

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00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.880
But either way, there was a
lot of misconduct by everyone in the family,

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00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:19.680
whether it was mental illness driven,
whether it was sexual abuse, whatever

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00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:23.160
the case was, there was a
tumultuous family life going on behind those closed

245
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:27.759
doors. So here she is with
an older man. Rose is with this

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00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:32.519
older man, Fred, and you
know he is obviously going to be her

247
00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:34.359
love interest. And as you can
probably guess, young girl hooks up with

248
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:40.960
older man. Guess where Rose finds
herself shortly thereafter? That's right, knocked

249
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:47.279
up, all right, So she's
pregnant by this older man, and very

250
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.480
quickly on she would even have to
take on an even more important role,

251
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:57.160
and that role would be called stepmother
because Fred, being the amazing man that

252
00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:03.119
he is, already had two other
children from that first marriage to Rena,

253
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:11.440
and he would soon be sent to
prison, obviously for his taste in young

254
00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:12.960
girls. Right, I mean,
duh, he needs to go to prison.

255
00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.559
Wrong, that's not why he was
sent to prison. That actually had

256
00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.440
nothing to do with the fact he
was having a sexual relationship with a teenager.

257
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:25.480
He went to prison on various charges, but most of them were along

258
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:30.480
the lines of like petty theft and
like tax evasion or not paying fines that

259
00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:36.079
he was supposed to find pay things
like that. So Rose would go on

260
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.079
to give birth to a daughter,
and this is around nineteen seventy and she

261
00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:44.920
would name their daughter together, Heather. Around nineteen seventy two, she and

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00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:49.240
Fred West would marry. That is
beyond me, this grown man marrying a

263
00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:53.319
young girl. But hey, he
can control her, right He was married

264
00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:57.359
to an older woman before, older
than comparatively to Rose, and he couldn't

265
00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:04.720
control her right now, Arguably,
our pickers are probably broken when we're teenagers.

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00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:08.599
And I would say Roses was broken, faux show, Like you know,

267
00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:12.920
we have to learn about people.
And she very quickly and way too

268
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:18.079
young, chose someone and then quickly
had a child with him and then made

269
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.359
him her husband. But who was
her husband prior to their marriage. Let's

270
00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:26.200
go down that road. Let's set
Rose aside for a second, and let's

271
00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:29.759
go talk about Fred real quick.
That we met at a bus stop.

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00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:37.119
So Fred was born originally into a
poor farm working family, and his parents'

273
00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:44.279
name were Walter and Daisy West.
But he was one of many children,

274
00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.880
and he wasn't necessarily a product of
superior breeding or anything. At school,

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00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:52.799
he was said to be talented,
like using his hands. He was pretty

276
00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:59.279
good at woodworking and art, but
he did not excel academically. So it

277
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:02.640
kind of sounds like Rose and Fred
as far as academics go, we're two

278
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:07.359
dumbmasses in a pod. They weren't
very good at schooling. And according to

279
00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:11.559
those that knew him, Fred was
really really close to his mom, like

280
00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:17.960
really close. In fact that,
according to Fred, his mother started abusing

281
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:23.400
him at age twelve, and that
also tied in with that claim was that

282
00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:30.079
his father was forcing him to participate
in bestiality with sheep. So old Fred

283
00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:33.400
from a young age is, you
know, being abused by his mom and

284
00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.960
having sex with animals at the urging
of his father. Now, interestingly enough,

285
00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:41.359
one of his younger brothers, his
name is Doug. Doug vehemently disputed

286
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:45.880
this and said, no, you
know, Fred's a liar and there wasn't

287
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.039
any abuse in our home growing up, and that's just total nonsense. But

288
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.799
adding to the confusion of truth and
lies is that one of Fred's sisters,

289
00:21:55.359 --> 00:22:02.200
her name was Kitty, you know, little Kitty Forward, and claimed that

290
00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:08.599
their father had raped all of his
daughters. Specifically, she said that at

291
00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:14.119
age thirteen, she even went and
confided in her own mother that not only

292
00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:18.960
was Dad raping them and having ancestual
sex with them, but her brother,

293
00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:27.440
Fred was also raping her. Now, even worse than being raped by your

294
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:33.000
father and your brother is that as
the result of the rape from her brother,

295
00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:40.319
she had become pregnant. So she's
pregnant with her own brother's child.

296
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:42.759
But she wouldn't carry that baby to
term. And I tried to figure out

297
00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:45.160
why or what happened, and I'm
not sure, honestly. I looked for

298
00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:48.200
a while and I was like,
Okay, well, you know this is

299
00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:51.240
fruitless. But she did not carry
that baby to term for whatever the reason

300
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:56.799
would be. But according to Fred, incest was an accepted thing in their

301
00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:02.000
family, and Fred was even quoted
as saying that his father told him,

302
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:08.200
quote, do whatever you want,
just don't get caught. Now you would

303
00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:12.400
think that Fred's lying, right,
no way that this can happen. But

304
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:17.799
let me sidebar just for a second. Y'all know, I'm in Louisiana.

305
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:25.519
There is a facet of our society. It's not large, but they believe

306
00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:33.480
that it is the role of the
father to introduce the daughters sexually to a

307
00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:37.400
life of what it's like. And
this is documented, and there are plenty

308
00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:44.720
of cases of this that you could
look up. But where fathers are taking

309
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:49.119
their daughter's virginity in essence is what
it is. So even though Fred's a

310
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:56.119
piece of shit, I'm not doubting
that maybe that did happen because there was

311
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.000
so much other stuff going on that
was rampant. And I also am incline

312
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:06.119
to believe it because this would actually
end up being he would end up going

313
00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:08.759
to court over this, all right, So don't forget that. So Kitty

314
00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:15.680
got pregnant as a young girl,
and Fred then shortly thereafter he left school

315
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:22.400
at age fifteen. Okay, and
two years later, around nineteen fifty eight,

316
00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:27.400
Fred suffered a fractured skull, a
broken arm, and a broken leg

317
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:33.119
in a motorcycle accident, and he
would actually lay in a coma for about

318
00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:37.200
eight days as a result of hitting
his head, but luckily he pulled through.

319
00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:44.759
But his family reported that after the
accident his behaviors kind of changed and

320
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:48.279
he was very prone to sudden fits
of rage and he would get angry very

321
00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:52.519
quickly. But with brain injuries,
you can't have these kinds of changes,

322
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:56.240
so it wasn't a huge deal.
I guess it just was really noticeable to

323
00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:00.720
the family. Now, you don't
want to get hit in the head again

324
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:06.039
after you've already hit your head,
right, But two years later, he

325
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:11.400
would hit his head again in a
fall from a fire escape and he would

326
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.440
lay unconscious for twenty four hours before
he actually woke up. So I wanted

327
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.279
to see more. I'm like wild
boy falling off of fire escapes, Like,

328
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.720
what's that about? But there's more
to this story than what meets the

329
00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:26.160
eye. Because this is going to
go back to the fact that Fred was

330
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:32.519
the proverbial pervert. In my opinion
and based on multiple sources, Fred was

331
00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:37.519
aggressively sexual and would basically pester females
of all ages teenagers up through grown ass

332
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:42.279
women. And basically what I'm telling
you is sexual assault laws were literally like

333
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:47.440
designed for people like Fred. His
picture should be in the law books as

334
00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:51.440
a prime example of literally don't be
this guy. He is the poster child

335
00:25:51.559 --> 00:26:00.000
for sexual assault. He clearly objectified
women, and he felt that his pleasure

336
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:03.720
was the main purpose for women,
and without a care in the world.

337
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:08.640
He was said to approach and fondle
women like just would go up and grab

338
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:12.240
anybody if he felt like, you
know, he wanted to. He was

339
00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:18.559
God's gift to them. And some
that even hooked up with him would make

340
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.359
the same complaint about him. Okay, they would say it was very clear

341
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.799
that his primary objective when hooking up
with these people was his own gratification,

342
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:32.559
and he would often leave the girls
unfulfilled. If you know it to me

343
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:36.519
because it was all about him.
What a legacy to leave my guy.

344
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:41.000
You know, you're known as the
crappy lover, you know, and it's

345
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:47.839
all about you. And why does
this, you know, tie into the

346
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:52.279
fire escape when he fell, well, it was reported the reason he fell

347
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:56.400
from the fire escape was, as
I just mentioned, there was a girl

348
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:03.319
on the fire escape that he was
trying to grope and she smoked his ass

349
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.680
with a right hook and he fell
off the fire escape and hit his head.

350
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:12.559
Karma's a bitch, my friend,
right, So maybe the first one

351
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:15.279
was his fault with the motorcycle,
but the second was definitely his fault.

352
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.720
But old girl got the best of
him and knocked him off of it.

353
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:22.480
So obviously Fred's not the best decision
maker. But you can't seem to like

354
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.559
kill weeds, can you. They
always come back no matter what. And

355
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.680
Fred was like these weeds, and
he would just continue making his own path

356
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:37.480
in life, which would include being
arrested at age twenty for that molestation of

357
00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.079
his sister. So that's why I'm
saying I tend to kind of believe what

358
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:45.599
he said about the ancestual thing because
he ended up being held accountable for it,

359
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.519
sort of. He got arrested for
molesting his sister, and as it

360
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:56.079
always seems to go, he was
convicted, okay, but he escaped any

361
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:06.319
imprisonment for his abuse use of her. He abuses his sister to the point

362
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:10.359
that she can't even really testify against
him. She is so distraught and so

363
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:15.200
destroyed by what her brother did to
her, and he literally benefits from the

364
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.279
fact that she is so tormented and
y'all, this is back in the sixties,

365
00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:22.480
right, sixty seventy, So I'm
assuming they didn't have victim victims advocates,

366
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:25.240
victim rights advocates out there to kind
of help her through this process,

367
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:30.319
and so she kind of just Withdrew
couldn't bear to explain all this in court.

368
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.039
So the case against him kind of
fell apart. But it seems like

369
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:37.839
he was convicted, but he didn't
serve any time for it. The only

370
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:42.079
punishment that he seemed to get was
the fact that his family disowned him afterwards.

371
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:48.160
They shunned him, and he was
an embarrassment to the family. Now,

372
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.000
where there is smoke, y'all,
there is usually fired. Don't you

373
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:56.599
think I'm one of those people?
And so his sister claims sex abuse by

374
00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.839
her brother, right, even though
that case fell apart, Well, imagine

375
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:07.119
this. Years later that first wife
I mentioned Rena, she would echo the

376
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.839
same sentiments about Fred. Fred would
meet up with her. Her name,

377
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:17.920
Rena's real name was Catherine Costello,
and she was actually a former girlfriend of

378
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.720
Fred, but she now was a
prostitute and she was working the streets and

379
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:29.559
they hit things off once again and
rekindled that relationship. And soon after they

380
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:33.799
would get married and she would quickly
have a child. But y'all, it

381
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:40.880
wasn't Fred's. She was already pregnant
when they got together. So they would

382
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:44.599
claim to other people once the baby
was born that they adopted this child.

383
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:49.359
And there was two different accounts of
what the child looked like specifically, but

384
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.640
heritage wise. One of them said
that they were saying that she was adopted

385
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:57.279
and the father was from Pakistan,
and another one said that the father,

386
00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:02.480
the biofather, was an a bus
driver. So depending on whatever report you

387
00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:04.519
want to believe, either way,
Fred was and the daddy, and so

388
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:10.039
they would just claim that they had
adopted her. But he wasn't exactly Dad

389
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:12.400
of the year either swooping in and
saving this pregnant woman from the streets.

390
00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:18.640
He was known to treat these children
very harshly, and he had no issues

391
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:23.720
with keeping the girls in the bottom
of a bunk bed. But he modified

392
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:30.240
this bunk bed and he he put
bars. He modified it with bars between

393
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:36.359
the two bunks, and so basically
he created a two story cage, and

394
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:41.119
it was his rules. These girls
were required to be controlled at all times

395
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:45.039
in that cage, and they were
only allowed to be out whenever he was

396
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:51.039
at work, so he didn't really
want to deal with them. So while

397
00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:53.119
all of this is going on,
and he's got this first wife and all

398
00:30:53.160 --> 00:31:02.599
of these other things happening, tragedy
would actually strike big time. Fred would

399
00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:07.480
be in another accident, but this
time he wouldn't hit his head. He

400
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:11.079
was working as an ice cream vendor, and on November fourth, this is

401
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:15.839
nineteen sixty five, Fred was driving
his typical route in a Mister Whippy ice

402
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:19.599
cream van and as he sped down
the road in circumstances at the time that

403
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:26.000
seemed pretty unclear, three year old
Henry William Feeney would run out in front

404
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:30.839
of his truck and would be run
over, and little William was killed right

405
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:34.880
then and there. He ran the
baby over. Police came and did investigate

406
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:40.519
the accident, and they ruled it
just that this was a tragic accident,

407
00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:48.599
but kind of weird. Shortly after
that accident, Fred and his wife would

408
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:55.200
quickly move because you know, Fred
was claiming that he feared for his safety

409
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:57.599
after running over the little boy,
and this intrigued me. I'm like,

410
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:04.559
why why would you be afraid for
your safety if it was an accident?

411
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:07.119
Like, that's kind of a weird
thing, right. You might be heartbroken,

412
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:10.599
You might would, you know,
be really sad and depressed for what

413
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:14.839
you had done, But for all
intents and purposes, your conscience should be

414
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:19.240
clear. I don't know why you
would fear for your safety after a terrible

415
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:22.920
accident. Well, based on what
I found. After some years would pass,

416
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:29.720
a witness would come forward with some
information that would make Fred's fear make

417
00:32:29.799 --> 00:32:35.559
total sense. But again, this
would be years later. But it's now

418
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:42.680
believed that Fred was actually using the
ice cream truck or the ice cream van

419
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:50.160
to lure children to him. Like
literally what nightmares are made of. You've

420
00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:54.640
got this creeper, sexually perverted,
hyper sexualized man ride in the streets in

421
00:32:54.720 --> 00:33:00.119
an ice cream van and kids are
coming up to the truck. And what

422
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:06.039
is actually believed to have happened is
that there was a gang of men that

423
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:09.759
had started chasing him, and the
reason they had chased him was because they

424
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:13.880
had heard you know, Okay,
at first they said, well, we

425
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:15.319
thought he was just a goofy looking
dude that just you know, he's kind

426
00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:19.799
of a joke or whatever. But
then the story started circulating that he would

427
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:22.400
invite kids to get into his van
for short little rides for fun. But

428
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:27.519
some things were happening to these kids
sexually while they were in that van,

429
00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:31.319
And so he was driving down that
road when this gang of people actually came

430
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:35.000
and tried to attack him for what
he had done to these local kids.

431
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:39.240
And so he sped away, driving
super recklessly and ended up running over little

432
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:43.880
Henry in the process so that he
could get away and save his own skin.

433
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:49.200
Can you imagine just would run over
a baby, run in towards an

434
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:52.200
ice cream truck so that you could
save your own skin because you know that

435
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:57.920
you've been molesting these children in your
van. But at the time this was

436
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:00.400
not fully investigated. That was not
an idea because the person that had the

437
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:04.880
information did not come forward at the
time, and so it remained an accident

438
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:10.920
and the case was closed well about
this same time. And look, I

439
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:14.920
know I started with Rose, okay, but I have to back up to

440
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:20.519
explain all of this to you.
About this time, this move that they

441
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:24.840
made because Fred feared for his safety, would also start to intertwine another girl

442
00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:31.679
into this story, and her name
was Anne McFall. So Anne would leave

443
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:36.519
school and after she left school,
she started to work in a knitwear factory

444
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:43.840
where during that timeframe she would befriend
Fred and his first wife, Catherine also

445
00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:52.519
went by Rena. The eighteen year
old girl Anne McFall would soon get the

446
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:58.719
opportunity become a nanny for these two, and as she became the nanny,

447
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:07.000
Fred started saying that she flirted relentlessly
with him. Relentlessly. Okay, Fred,

448
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:10.480
sure, But something else Fred also
said about her was that he found

449
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:15.880
her to be very naive. And
naive is his word. And that kind

450
00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:17.360
of makes you cringe a little bit, doesn't it. This guy that's obviously

451
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:22.800
not a good guy, and now
he's referring to his new nanny as naive

452
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:29.000
and claims that she's, you know, flirting with him relentlessly. Well,

453
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:36.320
she would move in and move with
Catherine and Fred, and eventually she also

454
00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:40.440
would become his lover. Now I
love how all of the I love how

455
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:45.039
all of the the blame is put
on her. Right, poor Fred,

456
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:47.840
He's just a victim here. She
was just so infatuated with him that that

457
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:53.079
she became his lover. Right.
But this usually would happen whenever his wife

458
00:35:53.119 --> 00:36:01.159
was away for whatever reason, and
soon young young girl would become pregnant by

459
00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:06.400
Fred Shocker. I don't guess this
guy ever heard of a condom before.

460
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:12.960
He's out there just nailing everybody.
And you know, obviously he's the father

461
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.239
of her child. And so she, you know, is pregnant. She

462
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:23.159
lets him know, and then amazingly
shortly thereafter, she disappeared in May of

463
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:31.119
nineteen sixty seven, not to be
heard from again. So I guess this

464
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:35.960
isn't isn't reported because nobody seems real
worried about what happened to this young girl,

465
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:43.280
and life goes on either way.
Catherine the wife, would ultimately leave

466
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:46.360
Fred around nineteen sixty nine because she
accused him of being violent towards her.

467
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.559
And she says, look, he
fled out sexually abused me. Now look,

468
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:52.840
this is coming from a prostitute,
a woman who sells sex for a

469
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:58.800
living, and I'm assuming is used
to being treated poorly by men, and

470
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:01.239
or she's leaving her own home saying
that he's sexually abusing her. It must

471
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:05.800
have been bad, y'all. But
go figure, right, it seems to

472
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.760
me what we call a pattern is
emerging here. He just doesn't seem like

473
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:13.719
the nicest guy to me, and
adding to this belief is the fact that

474
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:19.760
in nineteen seventy one, at just
twenty seven years old, that very same

475
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:28.400
wife that left him would also go
missing. Hmm. Seems rather convenient,

476
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:30.679
doesn't it that all these people who
come in contact with Fred and are sexually

477
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:38.599
wrapped up with Fred then disappear.
So backing up now, whenever I had

478
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:44.320
mentioned remember how Fred went to prison
for those petty charges that I mentioned earlier,

479
00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:47.360
and Rose was left is now second
wife. Young fifteen year old Rose

480
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:52.320
was left to take care of her
step children from Fred's marriage, right,

481
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:58.239
the kids that he produced with Catherine. Well, while he was in prison

482
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:02.719
he would be gone for a ten
months. Now. Who are these two

483
00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:07.039
children that he shared with his first
wife and were now being watched by Rose.

484
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:13.119
Their names were Charmaine and Anne Marie, and a young Rose now about

485
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:15.920
sixteen years old, finds herself,
you know, in charge of raising these

486
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:21.599
children as well as her biological daughter
with Fred, Heather. So she has

487
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:25.000
three young kids that she's she's in
charge of, and rather quickly Rose began

488
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:30.880
abusing eight year old Charmain West and
based on the statements of others, Charmaine

489
00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:36.360
hated her stepmother Rose and when I
say hated, I mean with a passion.

490
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:39.880
She could not stand this woman.
She literally did not want to be

491
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:44.880
in her presence. And as a
result of this, their relationship, as

492
00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:49.679
you can imagine, was pretty tumultuous
one and the only manner, you know,

493
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:52.960
in the only manner that an eight
year old knows how to show her

494
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:58.679
anger towards the woman she hated.
Little Charmain was said to act out sometimes

495
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:00.760
being a little you know, ellious
and not wanting to do what Rose told

496
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:05.920
her to do. But y'all,
in her defense, she's eight years old,

497
00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:08.119
she's not seventeen. How bad could
it really be? I mean,

498
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:14.280
a smart mouth? Is she voicing
her disdain and wanting her real mom?

499
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:16.719
Right? I mean, I can't
say that I blame this little girl.

500
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:21.320
I'd want my mama too. And
now little eight year old Charmain's lost her

501
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:27.199
daddy to prison and she hates her
stepmom. You know, I just I

502
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:30.519
kind of feel bad for little Charmain. And then adding insult to injury here

503
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:35.960
is that her stepmom's abusing her,
and not just emotionally, y'all, she

504
00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:40.199
starts constant physical abuse of this child. Can you imagine the pent up anger

505
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:45.760
and frustration that this eight year old
must have had in life because of the

506
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:50.719
circumstances, and now she's being physically
hurt. Hell, i'd buck up too,

507
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:53.800
that's all you know how to do. She can't go anywhere, she's

508
00:39:53.800 --> 00:40:00.559
stuck. You know what's she gonna
do? So she little man had made

509
00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:04.360
friends with a neighbor. Her name
was Tracy Giles, and one day little

510
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:10.800
Tracy, who was Charmaine's best friend, was sent over to Charmaine's house to

511
00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:15.280
borrow a pint of milk, and
so, like she would do, she

512
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:19.559
walked in the house. But what
she found was rather shocking because see,

513
00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:23.280
her best friend, Charmaine was standing
on a chair but had her hands tied

514
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:29.559
behind her back with a belt.
And little Tracy was in a bit of

515
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:36.440
shock because she saw Rosemary with a
wooden spoon in the acts of beating Charmaine

516
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:39.440
with her hands tied behind her back, standing in a chair. And it

517
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:44.079
really didn't sit right with Tracy.
But I mean, who was she to

518
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:49.639
question an adult in her eyes,
at least for disciplining her stepdaughter who was

519
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:55.360
obviously, according to rose being naughty. But I mean, even according to

520
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:01.880
Charmaine's sister Anne Marie. Both of
the girls were subject to frequent beatings,

521
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:07.800
but the reason Charmaine took the brunt
of them was because she was infuriating Rosemary

522
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:14.280
because she would refuse to cry no
matter how severe the beating was. She

523
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:21.239
would not shed a tear, and
shortly thereafter, around June of nineteen seventy

524
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:27.400
one, Charmaine would be gone from
the home and her best friend Tracy,

525
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:30.920
was really really sad by this because
she even would ask Rosemary and say,

526
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:37.480
where is Charmaine. I haven't seen
her, and that's whenever Rosemary would respond

527
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:39.800
and sneer at her and say gone
to live with her mother, and good

528
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:47.679
riddance. Kind of seems, you
know, a bit uncaring, you know

529
00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:53.199
that your stepdaughter's gone, and this
was really unexpected. Tracy wasn't ready for

530
00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:58.320
that, but she didn't question the
statement again of an adult, and life

531
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:02.719
just kind of went on. But
Anne Marie, Charmaine's sister, was also

532
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:07.719
surprised when she came home from school
and was told by rose that Charmain was

533
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:12.559
gone, and she chalked it up
to moving to live with their mother.

534
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:15.320
Her mom came and got her and
just took her away. But you know,

535
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:20.119
strangely, Anne Marie didn't get to
go. She was going to have

536
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:25.000
to stay with Rose. And then
Rose would pack Anne Marie up and they

537
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:30.079
would go and visit her father in
prison, right because he was still incarcerated,

538
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:37.199
and no questions were raised by this. Now, months later, Fred

539
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:40.199
would be released from prison and return
home, and the family was together again,

540
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:45.559
minus young Charmain. But what no
one knew was that Rose had Charmain

541
00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:51.280
closer by than anyone actually thought.
And that's because Rose had actually beaten eight

542
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:55.360
year old Charmain to death in a
fit of rage, and then she took

543
00:42:55.400 --> 00:43:05.599
her battered body to a cool,
dark coal cellar for storage. Her beaten

544
00:43:05.639 --> 00:43:08.360
and bruised body was then just dumped
in the cellar and she laid there in

545
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:14.800
a state of basically unrest until her
father got home from prison. She dumped

546
00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:19.480
the child in the cellar. And
you know, I can't imagine the shock,

547
00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:22.159
even Fred, who was in prison, right, he's not a very

548
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:24.000
nice guy, but I can't imagine
the shock that Fred must have felt when

549
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:28.360
he stumbled upon her body in the
cellar. I mean, his baby girl

550
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:31.920
taken with such you know, depravity
and the lack of care while he was

551
00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:37.920
gone, and then to find her
dead body. I can't imagine. But

552
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:42.239
the reality is actually don't have to
imagine, because I know exactly how he

553
00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:46.519
felt because he made it crystal fricking
clear when all he did was go in

554
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:51.840
the cellar and move her body.
He carried it out into the yard,

555
00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:58.360
and then he buried her beneath the
kitchen window at their home. Never called

556
00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:01.639
for help, never called police,
he never even really made an issue of

557
00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:07.079
it. That's the service that he
held for his eight year old daughter.

558
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:12.159
Dig a hole, buy the kitchen
window, throw her in it, cover

559
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:16.440
her up. And as I continue
this story, I don't want you to

560
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:22.039
forget the fact that this murder occurred
in the absence of Fred. He wasn't

561
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:24.639
even there. But his response tells
me everything I think I need to know

562
00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:27.960
about what kind of man he was, if you want to call him a

563
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:34.239
man. And as fate would have
it, Charmaine and Anne Marie's mama would

564
00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:38.000
then shortly thereafter come looking for them. About two months later, she showed

565
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:42.639
up on their doorstep once she found
their address. Now I was kind of

566
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.840
confused. Okay, well, you
can't just leave your kids with somebody and

567
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:47.360
then all of a sudden become Mother
of the Year and show back up.

568
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:51.000
But y'all, that's not actually what
I found. What I found was in

569
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:54.400
order for her to escape such abusive
behavior at the hands of their father,

570
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:59.800
she just left him and he wouldn't
let her take the kids. And if

571
00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:01.760
you don' understand domestic abuse, we
need to do more research on it,

572
00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:06.519
right, you need to go listen
to maybe some of my previous episodes where

573
00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:07.880
I'll talk about it. But she
did what she felt she had to do

574
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:14.280
to survive, all right, And
she showed up once she found the address.

575
00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:21.440
And I did see a thing where
the sister of Catherine Costello said that

576
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:24.760
her sister had been in a state
of just just guttural, just sickness because

577
00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:29.480
she didn't know where her girls were. But she still had been visiting with

578
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:31.800
them up until they moved with Rose, and then she didn't know where her

579
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:36.760
girls were. And she found that
address, and just two months later,

580
00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:38.920
after Charmaine had been killed, is
when she showed up on the doorstep.

581
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:45.760
She wanted to go see her girls, and when she got there, there

582
00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:51.800
was an issue. It's the pretty
obvious one. Charmaine wasn't there, and

583
00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:54.400
obviously you would think, well,
Catherine must have been really alarmed at her

584
00:45:54.480 --> 00:46:00.519
daughter's being missing. And no one
knows exactly what happened when she arrived,

585
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:04.440
other than the fact that we know
she had to have confronted her ex husband,

586
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:07.519
you know, but no one really
knows exactly what happened. All that's

587
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:12.719
really known at this point was that
after she arrived to collect her girls,

588
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:20.760
she was never seen or heard from
again. Later on, when Anne Marie

589
00:46:21.159 --> 00:46:23.519
got older, she kind of talked
about this, and when she asked her

590
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:30.079
father why her mother had taken Charmaine
but never took her, Fred callously replied

591
00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:36.079
to her, she wouldn't want you
love You're the wrong color. Now.

592
00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:42.639
That was just sickening to me,
just incredibly sick. The poor girl never

593
00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:45.719
sees her mom again, and yet
her father is going to go ahead and

594
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:50.039
place the blame on the very woman
who had arrived to take her babies with

595
00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:54.079
her and then goes missing. I'm
sure you can guess what happened to her.

596
00:46:55.880 --> 00:47:00.239
And the emotional abuse and the lies
are enough to make anyone angry.

597
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:05.559
Can you imagine growing up with the
belief that your mother came didn't want you,

598
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.480
didn't take you took your little sister
and then rolled out. It's just

599
00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:15.519
sick, and that poor woman's missing, and her daughter's dead and buried under

600
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:19.440
a kitchen window, and the remaining
daughter is left to think that they both

601
00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:25.280
up and left her Hyindra. So
Fred and Rosemary would continue on their marriage

602
00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:30.639
as if nothing really happened. One
less child feed, one less to look

603
00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:32.880
after. I guess that's kind of
how they looked at it. But in

604
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:39.159
June of nineteen seventy two, Fred
and Rose would have their second biological daughter

605
00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:44.119
together, who they would call May. And by this time it was also

606
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:49.960
noted that Rose was interested in making
a little extra money, so she would

607
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:53.880
earn this money by doing the side
hustle. Oldest time she used her sexual

608
00:47:53.920 --> 00:48:00.000
prowess, and she too became a
prostitute. Now, when you're out tootin

609
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:05.199
and your husband's out slaying ice cream
or doing whatever the hell he's doing,

610
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:12.079
you need a nanny, don't you
remember? Fred likes to hire nanny's.

611
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:15.639
He had already hired one with his
first wife, and now he was needed

612
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:20.159
one with his second wife, And
so they look to hire a nanny,

613
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:23.079
and Lucky for them. They were
happy when they found seventeen year old Caroline

614
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:29.679
Owens as they picked her up while
hitchhiking, and the couple really liked the

615
00:48:29.719 --> 00:48:31.519
girl. They said, she's perfect
for the job. She's young, she's

616
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:36.199
energetic, the girls are going to
love her. She's gonna do great with

617
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:40.519
our kids. So she becomes the
nanny. But at some point shortly thereafter,

618
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:43.960
she changed her mind and said,
look, I don't want a nanny

619
00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:45.920
anymore for y' all, thanks,
but no thanks, and she went about

620
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:51.880
her way. But after a few
weeks the West picked her up again,

621
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:54.599
presumptively when she was hitchhiking. I
don't know exactly what she was doing,

622
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:59.320
but they got her again and they
went back to the house. This time,

623
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:05.239
those things were really different because the
couple would attack her once inside of

624
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:09.679
the home and they drug her down
into their cellar. Now, once they

625
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:13.480
got her down there, you're like, why did they do this? Right?

626
00:49:13.519 --> 00:49:15.360
Are they mad? Because she quit
nannying? What could it be?

627
00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:20.000
Well, once they got her down
there where no one could hear her screams

628
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:25.000
and could pretty much dominate her,
the couple tied her up and they stripped

629
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:32.199
her down, and then they violently
raped this girl. Now this wasn't quick.

630
00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:37.679
This extended for a period of time, and as this young girl was

631
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:44.199
pleading for them to stop, she
was met with the force and threats that

632
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:49.239
if she didn't shut up and comply
and do exactly what Fred and Rose wanted,

633
00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:52.440
then she was going to be killed. And Fred said he was going

634
00:49:52.519 --> 00:49:55.639
to bury her under the paving stones. Now, knowing what you know,

635
00:49:55.960 --> 00:50:00.599
obviously this young girl didn't know was
he meant with every word said, because

636
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:02.400
he had already buried his own daughter
under a window. What do you think

637
00:50:02.440 --> 00:50:07.079
he's gonna do with this girl.
It's then said that Rose came up and

638
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:13.599
put a pillow over her head,
and the abuse continued while Rose can tried

639
00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:16.800
to smother her. So, in
what can best be described as a total

640
00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:24.519
miracle, right, Caroline was able
to miraculously escape with her life after promising

641
00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:29.480
with everything that she had, I
promise you, I'm not going to tell

642
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:32.920
anyone. Please just let me go. Please, I won't tell a soul.

643
00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:38.360
I just want to live. Kind
of echoes the Reagan Tooks episode here,

644
00:50:38.840 --> 00:50:45.960
and it's also got a little reminiscent
of young Sylvia Lichens. You know,

645
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:51.360
it's like there's a pattern amongst evil. But this time she did convince

646
00:50:51.400 --> 00:50:53.519
them and she said, look,
I'll even still work for you as a

647
00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:59.440
nanny if you will just let me
go. Please let me go. And

648
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:04.320
in this since it kind of seems
like their selfishness and what they could gain

649
00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:07.599
from her as a nanny is ultimately
what would end up saving this young girl's

650
00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:14.320
life because they let her go.
I can't believe that. I'm glad they

651
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:17.360
did, but I can't believe it. But they let her go. But

652
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:22.920
young Caroline Owen, yall, she's
not a little little nobody. Okay,

653
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:25.360
this girl had wits about herself,
and she didn't leave and not tell a

654
00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:29.400
soul. She did what she should
have done. She ran straight to the

655
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:32.119
police. She did not pass go, she didn't collect two hundred dollars.

656
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:37.519
She rolled straight out to the police
and let them know exactly what had happened

657
00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:40.000
to her. But this is where
you should get really angry. If you're

658
00:51:40.039 --> 00:51:45.079
not already mad about what they would
do to this team, think about this.

659
00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:47.920
Fred had already been accused of molesting
and raping what seems like half the

660
00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:52.719
damned country at this point. Yet
here's the outcome of what happens to him

661
00:51:52.960 --> 00:52:00.639
as a result of this girl that
ends up escaping his grips. Why we

662
00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:05.920
continue to give criminals and abusers the
benefit of the doubt absolutely blows my mind.

663
00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:07.199
And if you're a follower of my
show, you know this. You've

664
00:52:07.239 --> 00:52:12.440
seen it over and over and over
again. And here's the same shit that

665
00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:17.199
happens again. The trauma of the
attack that was left you know that that

666
00:52:17.239 --> 00:52:22.960
young Caroline dealt with, the trauma
of all of it left her unable to

667
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:27.280
face the couple in court. She
just it was too much. Just like

668
00:52:27.320 --> 00:52:30.119
his sister Kitty, it was too
much. I can't go see them again.

669
00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:32.239
I'm scared of them. I'm lucky
to be with my you know,

670
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:37.840
alive right now. So incredibly,
because she couldn't face them in court,

671
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:46.360
they got the benefit of the doubt. Fred, the conniving piece of utter

672
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:52.079
shit that he is, was able
to convince the judge that Caroline was a

673
00:52:52.239 --> 00:53:00.400
willing participant in the events. Oh, she wanted this, She was definitely

674
00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:06.159
a part of it. And Fred
and Rose walk out of the court with

675
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:15.679
nothing other than a small fine they
had to pay. Why did their victims

676
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:22.199
seem to pay a much more serious
dangerous and painful price than the attackers themselves.

677
00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:28.000
It's absolutely ludicrous. And a few
months later, after they walk out

678
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:31.079
of that court, she walks out
smelling like a Rose. No pun intended,

679
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:35.719
right because her names Rose. But
soon right thereafter a few months after,

680
00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:40.599
Rose gives birth to the couple's first
son that they would have together.

681
00:53:40.679 --> 00:53:45.519
His name is Stephen and he would
be born in August. So the couple

682
00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:50.800
gets out of the ordeal of rape
and kidnapping and abusing a teenager. They

683
00:53:50.840 --> 00:53:55.480
have a child, and then another
young woman would come into their lives.

684
00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:00.639
They would come in contact with another
young girl who was struggling, and she

685
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:06.239
came from a broken home. Her
name was Shirley Robinson and Shirley was eighteen

686
00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:10.559
years old when they met her,
and she was desperately looking for a role

687
00:54:10.599 --> 00:54:15.760
model to help her out. And
luckily for her, Rose and Fred West

688
00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:19.559
had room in their home and they
were willing to be those people for her.

689
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:25.840
What are the chances? What luck
young Shirley had stumbled upon. But

690
00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:30.119
something we can't seem to forget,
and you probably have caught on too,

691
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:32.760
is the fact that Fred has a
taste for young girls. He likes these

692
00:54:32.800 --> 00:54:38.519
young girls, and unfortunately for Rose, she may have been his wife,

693
00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:45.719
but she was not his only interest. He was insatiable sexually, and very

694
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:51.039
soon after moving into the home,
Shirley and Fred would strike up a relationship

695
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:59.360
that was more than just a role
model and mentee. This relationship two became

696
00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:05.840
a sexual behind closed doors. Though
this wasn't the only scandal taking place,

697
00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:10.480
because it would actually be the case
that Rose herself wasn't necessarily turned off by

698
00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:16.480
this situation. She actually would become
really, really comfortable with the thought of

699
00:55:16.519 --> 00:55:23.199
this young girl satisfying her husband.
But she was so comfortable that she and

700
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:30.960
Shirley too would take their sexual adventures
to a new level, participating in lesbian

701
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:37.559
sex with each other as well.
So they're kind of getting freaky right behind

702
00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:40.719
closed doors. And while this may
have been a fun new adventure for the

703
00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:45.320
three of them at first, in
a tale as old as Time you Knew

704
00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:52.079
I was Gonna Sing for You,
one woman's gonna become rather jealous of the

705
00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:57.159
other one's attention gaining behaviors. Shirley's
over there living her best life as she

706
00:55:57.280 --> 00:56:02.119
saw it, including openly flaunting her
relationationship with Fred like other people, even

707
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:07.760
noticed it. She was hugging and
kissing on him, and behind closed doors

708
00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:10.719
was one thing. But when she
started showing this ownership of Fred like out

709
00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:16.559
in the public, that wasn't going
to work for Rose. And soon this

710
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:24.119
threesome relationship soured quickly, and the
understanding between the three became a misunderstanding.

711
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:31.320
And it became really evident, really
quickly that Rose West's initial acceptance of this

712
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:37.599
agreement turned into you know, blood
red jealousy, and there was a lot

713
00:56:37.639 --> 00:56:43.400
of tension in the home, and
this tension would grow exponentially over time,

714
00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:50.719
and Rose's displeasure with Shirley would become
ever so obvious, to the point that

715
00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:54.920
Shirley even confided in another woman her
name was Elizabeth Brewer, that she was

716
00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:59.880
actually scared of the Wests. At
this point, Rose scared her and so

717
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:06.639
noted Fred and making the situation even
more dire. For surely is she actually

718
00:57:06.639 --> 00:57:13.599
had another secret. She was pregnant
now and Fred was the father. Can

719
00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:15.360
you see where this is going?
Seems like I keep repeating the same thing

720
00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:20.800
over and over again, doesn't it
just a different person? Now? Maybe

721
00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:24.559
this makes me mean, but I'm
gonna say it anyway, Fred was not

722
00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:31.639
of admirable looks. You ever been
heard of like being hit by the ugly

723
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:37.159
stick? Well, you know,
it looks like maybe the whole damn tree

724
00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:39.199
fell on Fred. Fred was but
fucking ugly. That's all the only way

725
00:57:39.199 --> 00:57:42.199
I can. I can put this
for you, and I'm gonna post pictures

726
00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:45.400
of them so you can make your
own opinions. And how he impregnated all

727
00:57:45.440 --> 00:57:50.400
these women so far is like impressive
to me, Like you know how some

728
00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:54.119
people carry condoms in their wallets.
I'm like of the mindset that he must

729
00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:59.320
have always had a paper bag on
hand or something, because damn, there's

730
00:57:59.320 --> 00:58:01.320
no way these women looked at this
face and thought this is a good thing.

731
00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:07.559
But either way, wouldn't you know
it? But shortly after that pregnancy

732
00:58:07.639 --> 00:58:16.320
happened and Rose had gotten all mad
about it, Shirley up and vanished gone,

733
00:58:16.519 --> 00:58:21.280
And that same neighbor that Shirley had
confided in about her fears of the

734
00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:27.119
West would also later say that Rosemary
West was in the house and Fred West

735
00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:31.719
was at work when Shirley was last
seen. She also added that the next

736
00:58:31.840 --> 00:58:37.239
day, after Shirley wasn't seen anymore, the West seemed very happy and they

737
00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:40.599
told her. Look, yeah,
Shirley's gone. She decided to leave.

738
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:49.760
She's gone to live with her relatives
in Germany. HM. Kind of convenient.

739
00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:55.079
All right, check this out.
There's so much left to this story.

740
00:58:55.159 --> 00:59:00.559
I've literally just like grazed the cusp
of what's about to happen. If

741
00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:06.119
you don't think there's more, there's
a done more, and I'm gonna tell

742
00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:07.760
it to you, but it's going
to have to go into a part two.

743
00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:09.280
But I will conclude in part two
for the people who want to know.

744
00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:13.639
But I hope that you never get
used to murder. I hope that

745
00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:15.960
when I'm telling these stories that we
don't become so desensitized to it that it's

746
00:59:16.039 --> 00:59:19.760
just like, okay, well another
one bit the dust. We can't do

747
00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:23.159
that. You've got to remember,
these are people that are lost. They're

748
00:59:23.199 --> 00:59:27.639
gone, no one's seen from them
or heard from them. You know,

749
00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:30.639
where could they be? We got
to know, and I'm going to give

750
00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:34.360
it to you. And I hate
when people just chalk it up to oh

751
00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:37.719
shit happens. But then again,
look at Fred's face.