Warning Signs: The Julie Greiner Trafficking Case

0:06 Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell stories of real crimes with real victims, whose cases are so shocking that many are left wondering how is this even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections, and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator, dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so evil many feel they are unspeakable.

0:50 Warning. Unspeakable is intended for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey y'all, kJ, You're back for another episode of Unspeakable. How are you doing? What is up? I had a long day to day. I don't know why, but it was long. But I'm recording today on a Friday, and I know you're getting this on a Wednesday, but it's going to come into effect at the end of this episode of why I'm telling you it's a Friday. But before I get started, I have a little thing here. I wanted to tell y'all if you're a local, Even if you're not, I don't care, but if you're a local, know that on November the fourteenth, which is Thursday, I'm going to be doing a special presentation at Southside Junior High for the wonderful students there, and we're gonna be talking about phone safety and internet safety. So if you have a child that goes there, or if you don't, I don't know, call them up. Maybe they'll just let people come listen. But I'm going to give a pretty good presentation there, and if that's something you're interested in, check it out. They're going to be promoting it and I'll be happy to meet you there. I'll be there with some merch and stuff too if that If that tickles your fancy. If not, no worries, don't worry about it.

1:54 But I've got some. Shout outs before I start the episode, and this one tickled me. This is out of Youngsville, Louisiana too, so it's a local person. But this person signed up on my Patreon as Special Agent PNP, and I feel like that. Deserves a pretty solid shout out. So Special Agent, I salute you, thank you for all that you do, and thank you so much as always for supporting me. I've then got Dane shadowed ins from Sanger, California. What is up, Dane. I am making it a point to get out to California. I want to come this summer. I may do it, but this summer I really want to go to California. I want to check it out and see what all the fuss is about because I've never been there. Then out in Texas, you know, I love my Texas people. I've got Sues Burnett, What up, sus?

2:37 How are things over in Texas? I hope they're going well for you. And then in Shyenne, Wyoming, Miss Brenda Shaver, Hi, Miss Brenda, I think I've spoken to you a few times too on the internet at some point somewhere, somehow I believe I did, so. I hope you're doing well out there in Wyoming. And then last, but not least, is Miss Jerry Jensen in Wasseca, Minnesota. Minnesota. Oh my goodness, I've got y'all all over the country, Miss Jerry. I hope that you're doing well. You people make my world go round for all the support you give me, and as usual, but not with any less, you know, celebration. I want to tell you thank you so very much from the bottom of my heart for your support and it means so much to me now as many of us that listen to this podcast. Know, being a parent, it's the most important job on the planet. It's the one job that you don't get paid for. You're underpaid, you're overworked. But it's a job that you never leave to a stranger.

3:38 It's the job that only you can do. And no matter you know what your your belief system is. I think that all of our children, you know, are destined to be our children. God knows what we can do for our kids and what they can do for us, right, and so they are very precious commodities in our lives. And something else that to that point I'd like to make is that being a sibling is an underrated job. You fight with your siblings most of the time. I know, me and my sister, man, we have gotten into some fights. We cut each other the deepest when we get mad too, but it's clear, crystal clear in our household. We may be bitching and moaning and fighting back and forth, but don't ever get it twisted that I will also be her number one defender if someone outside of my family tries to mess with my family. It's just the unspoken rule.

4:33 And if you have siblings, you know what I'm talking about. That's your sibling, and no one else gets to get close to your sibling. This relationship. It's especially special too, between a big brother and a little sister. That's a dynamic that is very special when you have to take care of your little sister and love her and kind of guide her as her older brother. With that in mind, come with me to Jefferson County, Colorado, and this was the home of Julie Greneer, her son Alex. She had a younger son than Alex. I'm gonna call him Mikey. Mikey is not his real name, but because he's a miner, I'm gonna just call him Mikey. And then the two brothers had an even younger sister, which I'm gonna call her Amy for this episode, but again that's not her real name, and I'm not using them because these are miners, and you know, we want to keep our miners' names.

5:30 We want to keep them out of it. Now. Julie, their mother. Julie was born in nineteen seventy two, and she was in her forties when this was taking place. And she's a pretty woman. She's got dark brown, almost black hair, she's got really big pretty eyes. She from what I can tell was a happy but single woman. I did not find a male figure in the household at all, so it seemed to be Julie and her three children. Now, the reason I'm saying what I found is I did some Internet sleuthing based on photos that I had, and I did some cross referencing and some searching, and that's how I landed upon some of the things that I found out, and based on the photos that I saw of her, I do feel like she's a pretty liberal minded person.

6:21 She seems like she likes to have fun, and she liked to surround herself with friends, and she liked to be around her family. I did not see any employment information, which will make sense in this story because Julie's financial status was a hot ass mess and this family was unstable financially at best. Okay, matter of fact, Julie struggled day to day, it seemed like, financially and usually paid like the light bill by scraping by. And how she got her money I don't know, because I did not employment status. Finances seem to be the biggest stressor in the household, and even her children were aware of this financial strain. So that's how big of a deal. It was now her son Alex. He was the oldest and he was older than Amy by years. There was a gap between them, and I did find him too through some internet slew thing. And I'm gonna tell you he's a handsome guy. He's a handsome fella, good natured. I would say that he's artistic.

7:27 And all around. From all the. Research that I did, all around, he seems like a decent good person. The daughter Amy when this story is going on, was twelve years old, so Alex is older. Alex is like seventeen eighteen. Amy is twelve and Amy again, based on the research that I did, she looks like her mama. And I'm not gonna take anything away. I'm telling you they are pretty. She looked just like her mama. That dark hair, there's big pretty eyes. She was tan, she was a pretty girl. And together their family life mimicked most of ours. Me most of the people that are listening to this show just day to day interactions, hugs while passing in the hallway, doing the best to live your life. Other than I am overly employed and my family's employed. But for the most part, it seems like your average family family life and the siblings had typical sibling relationships love hate at that age, and that age gap getting on each other's nerves is common. But they loved each other and there was love in this family.

8:36 And like most kids, twelve year old Amy used social media. Now, something worrisome about social media that we all know about is that young people may overshare online and that's something that we have to be very vigilant of as parents of young people growing up in a digital world. Amy wasn't stupid, though, and even at twelve years old, she kind of vetted who she spoke to. And I wasn't surprised by this because I did find out that Amy had been sexually abused by her father in the past and was pretty guarded. As a result of that, she did search for outlets about this abuse and she found peace through an app that she downloaded in the month of September. And this is an app where you could talk to people and it was supposed to be a judgment free zone and the truth be told. When she downloaded this app, Amy was feeling really depressed. She was very sad, and she connected with another young teen and they developed a bond on a deep level because he too had been abused, and they found a lot of support in one another. He was young like her. He was fifteen, so he was a few years older than her, but they got along really well and had so many things in common. The teen's name was Thomas Kesky, and they had been talking now that this story is coming about, for about six months and they were really able to

10:09 confide in one another. Now twelve and fifteen, that was too big of a gap as far as big brother Alex was concerned, but he didn't try to overthink it, considering he realized or found out through Amy that Thomas lived in Australia, so he was halfway around the world and shout out to my Australia listeners. I know I've got y'all out there, and I love y'all so much. Y'all are so cool. Now he w wasn't overthinking it, like I said, He kind of was of the mindset of this is just another friend that is eventually going to drop off over time. Anyway, It's an online friend, Like, how serious could that be? Thomas and Amy had a lot of communication though they were communicating through I Message, FaceTime, Facebook.

10:53 Multiple avenues of communication between these two teens. But this friendship also continued much which longer than Alex the older brother, expected that it would. It would stay alive. Not only that, but they had become so close that Thomas started mailing gifts to his twelve year old sister. This was a bit much for Alex. I mean, kids who are flirting and talking on the phone, but you know whatever, but like you're mailing gifts. It just seemed a bit much. She's twelve, you know. And so he sent a necklace to her, and he even had wired money to her.

11:34 But it wasn't like it was going straight to Amy. It would had to go into their mother's bank account because Amy was a minor and she didn't have an account. Of her own. So her mom did have eyes on the situation and what was going on. But there were some other things that were happening in Alex's life that at best he would just describe as off. It just didn't sit right with him, considering the financial woes facing his mother, Julie. Alex did find it extremely interesting that his mother and his little sister were planning to make a trip to Hawaii together, Like, how does that even fit into your schedule? When you can't even pay your light bill. I mean just the previous month. The month of October, finances were so bad that no bills were able to be paid, and Julie was tripping. She's like, I don't know I'm gonna pay these bills. I don't have any money. But somehow she was able to again straight by and get the money in so that they weren't gonna be evicted from the house that they were living in. And he knew that his mom was also under a ton of stress because of this, but he had something that he had to tell her. He didn't want to add to her stress, but this wasn't something he wanted to not bring up.

12:52 It was bothering Alex really deep down inside. One day in November, Amy and Tom were facetiming on her phone and Alex caught a glimpse of Thomas while they were facetiming, and to Alex's surprise, he looked older than fifteen. Alex was so concerned by the way that Thomas looked that he even ran to his mom and was like, you need to go check this out. Have you seen him? This is sus suspicious as. I'll get out. He looks way too old, and. He was like, you know, I don't think that they should really be communicating with each other anymore.

13:33 This is bizarre. I don't know what a fifteen year old or supposed fifteen year old sees in my sister who's twelve, and why they are talking so much. But to Alex's surprise, Julie acted as if she already knew that Thomas was actually a little bit older than Alex originally thought that he was, so Alex got kind of irritated and he confronted his mom and a demanded an answer and was like, Mom, do you know. How how old he is? Like? How old is this guy? And Julie turned around and matter of factly said, yes, son, I do He's your age. So completely flabbergasted by the age difference because now he realizes that Thomas is seventeen and his sister is twelve. That's a high school senior and a seventh grader. To put it into perspective, what in the world. He's so just outraged by this. Alex immediately became defensive and starts yelling at his mom and is like, you have got to stop this, and now they cannot be communicating she's too young. It's gross. Why on the hell would you let this go on. So Julie says, Okay, you need to calm down. I've spoken to Thomas. Julie said, they are just friends. They are just kind of leaning on one another. It is not sexual, Alex, and you need to calm down.

14:59 You are o. We're reacting and you don't know what your sister has been dealing with, so you need to step off. So Alex is like, okay, well, if that's the case, then let's get her phone. Maybe we should go through her messages and see what they're about. And Alex and Julie kind of go back and forth and back and forth about going through the phone, and finally she says, okay, Son, fine, we will. We'll go through the phone. But it didn't happen immediately. Well, shortly thereafter that conversation, Alex accidentally broke his own cell phone and he needed one to use temporarily, so for a brief minute, he began using Amy's cell phone until his new one came in. And looking in the phone, he himself did not find anything crazy, like, he didn't see any nudes or anything of that nature, and so for a moment he kind of realized, Okay, maybe I was overreacting a little bit, Maybe I do need to calm down.

15:52 But that was. Until he started searching through her apps on the phone and he found multiple apps that were sex chat apps. And remember Amy is twelve. We're talking about a middle schooler here. So when he found those sex chat apps, he jumped up and ran immediately to his mother's room, and she was asleep. Whenever he ran in there. He woke her up and said, oh my god, look what is on her phone. Look at this, there's sex chat apps. But Julie was asleep, and he did stir her momentarily enough that she sat up and listened to what he had to say. But then she kind of said, oh, okay, all right, all right, I'll look at it, and then she laid back down and went to sleep. Doing a whole bunch of nothing. Putting myself in her shoes. All I can say is there would have been fire behind my ass. I would have been running so fast to snatch that little girl up and get some answers on what is going on here, and then I would have been on a plane to Australia to go box in somebody's ears when I found out that there were sex chat apps on this phone.

16:56 But I'm not Julie. Nothing that Amy could have said, by the way, would have been good enough in this situation. But going back to sleep is not anything that I think would be near the response that would come from me. But Alex wasn't the parent, and he was doing what he thought was best to protect his sister. But at the end of the day, Julie was the mom, and Julie had to be the mom. So in the days and weeks to come, it seemed though to Alex that maybe Julie did go have a discussion with Amy at length, because Alex noticed that he did not ever see his little sister on the phone as much as he was before, and he had gotten a new cell phone by then, so Amy had her cell phone back. He also didn't mean to get his sister in trouble. He just wanted this teenage boy to leave his little sister alone, and he was too damn old to be talking to her, and I think any brother would have been frustrated. Amy, though, felt that Thomas was extremely helpful to her. He understood her, and when I say understood her, things like he would check in on her. He would make sure, hey, did you eat today? Are you brushing your teeth? He kind of was coaching her and saying things like, you've got to take care of yourself. You're not going to succeed in life if you're depressed and you're not taking care of yourself, then you're just gonna spiral out of control.

18:15 And he was being really encouraging to her, and she didn't know why he cared so much, but the fact was he was consistent and he did continuously try to build her up and make her feel better about about herself. But there was something that would happen a week or so later that would have Alex even more alarmed once he realized what he had seen. Now, Amy was twelve, and she wasn't little anymore. Now to a. Forty year old woman, of course, she's a little bitty kid, but to her seventeen year old brother, she felt like she was getting old and she wanted her privacy. Now she was twelve years old, and this was understandable because she was a growing lady. She was growing into a young lady, and so there were just certain things that aren't allowed to do anymore. For example, Alex walked into her bedroom unannounced to ask her something one day, and she got really upset. And although it was a very brief second that Alex saw her when he opened the door, he could tell a couple of things. Just in those couple of seconds, he could tell number one, that she was completely undressed, and number two, she had to grab a blanket to cover herself. Okay, well, that in and of itself is not alarming to me. She's a little girl and she doesn't want her brother seeing her naked, so she just grabs something to cover herself up, and I find that to be completely appropriate. She then jumped up and she slammed the door on him and said, you need to knock first. You don't just bust up in my bedroom. Have a little decency. So while this

19:49 response seems completely normal, I mean, you should knock right a little. A brother shouldn't be. Just walking in on his little sister at that age. But it's what Alex saw beyond his sister that had him most uneasy. She had her phone on and it was like resting on the counter, and she was facetiming, and it was a man's face that she saw on the screen. So when she slammed the door in his face, he thought for a moment whether he had seen what he thought he saw, and he knew he did, there was no question, but he was trying to think through this, like why would my sister not be dressed and be facetiming a man again. He ran to their mother's room and said, mom, oh my god, wake up again. Julie was asleep, and when he woke her up, he was completely freaking out about this man was on the phone with her and she was not dressed, and Julie shushed him and went back to sleep. So certainly all of us now that are listening to this are kind of wide eyed now, going like, what the fuck is wrong with you?

20:57 Lady? You know, but I'll give her this. We don't all have the same instincts or parenting styles. Maybe Julie preferred that her son stay out of his sister's problems or something along that nature, But whatever her thoughts were, she wasn't communicating that with Alex, and Alex was fuming by now. And as if this wasn't alarming enough, his mother's lack of alarm really had Alex just in the throes of frustration, and he didn't hold back any OF's anger towards her about not taking him seriously. He was becoming very what's the word I'm looking for, very animated and almost aggressive towards his mom because she was not seeming to take his warnings about what was happening very seriously. So Julie, then, like I told you, responded by what was going on, apparently by booking a trip to Hawaii with Amy. And so this was just one month later from all of that.

21:59 It was Inanuary, and she's been scraping by on bills. So Alex is like, what is going on? Is my mom having a midlife crisis? You know? Is she in denial? And is she trying to maybe baby Amy because she had some trauma in her history and she's acting out. And Mom's not, you know, being as tough as she should be. You know, he's really mulling all of this over in his mind, trying to figure it out. But whatever the case, Alex decided, Okay, well, there's some things I can control and some things I can't. But one thing I can do is that I can search out this Tom you know, this Thomas character. And kind of figure out who he is. So Alex jumps on the computer and he started with none other than Facebook. That's what a lot of us folks do, especially in my age group, right, us four year olds. We're gonna do some sleuthing on the Facebook.

22:46 And he was able to track down Thomas and it was really Thomas, and he point blank asked him in a message, do you know how old my sister is? And Thomas responded yes, she's twelve. And Alex then and asked him how old are you? But Alex wouldn't respond. He only said, and this is a direct quote, old enough, and he said, you need to chill out. I'm not some pervert, child molester or anything like that. I'm just your sister's friend. You're being ridiculous, you know, searching me out online. So Alex was pretty direct and firm with him and basically issued an ultimatum to him, either you will cut off all contact with my sister or I'm going to call the police and let them know that as seventeen year old is trying to communicate with a twelve year old. Either cut it off or I'm gonna I'm going to do something about it. Well, this was enough for Thomas to hear, and even at seventeen years old, he knew he shouldn't play around with this, that that's something that he didn't want to deal with. And so he said, okay, fine, fine, fine, I don't want any trouble.

23:50 I won't talk to your sister anymore, and they finished the conversation. Alex felt really good about the conversation too. He said, even in the days to come, things were looking up, you know, and that his sister seemed happy and fine, and that he had probably scared off this guy from Australia. Something about the household, though, that I'll bring up, was that it operated differently than say, like my own. And I'm not saying I'm any better, I'm just saying different, Okay. For example, Julie allowed her kids to have access to the bank account, almost like it was a family bank account. My kids are not going to have access to my bank account. I know this though, because younger brother Mikey, remember there was that middle sibling.

24:31 Younger brother Mikey was expecting some money. I'm not sure what that money was for, but he was expecting some money that was supposed to be auto deposited into Julie's account that said Mikey was monitoring the bank account and like feverishly want to know when his money hit because he wanted to go buy whatever it is he wanted to buy. And when he checked one of these days, there was a deposit of seven hundred and fifty dollars into the family account. So Mikey wanted to know, Mama, is that my money or is that not? What is that money that came in? And it turned out it wasn't his money. So Alex, hearing the conversation, was curious about where the money came from. Where did you get seven hundred and fifty dollars? So he questioned his mom and it took her a little while to be honest with him, but then she finally admitted, Okay, Well, I was so desperate I called Thomas and I asked him if he could help me with our cable bill, which, regardless of whatever Alex thought, I'm kind of here going cable bill. Who in the hell has a seven hundred and fifty dollars cable bill? Jesus, what are y'all watching?

25:38 So Alex then asked his little sister about this and said, why is Thomas sending mom money to pay our cable bill, and Amy said, I don't know anything about what you're talking about. I don't know about any money that was transferred. So Alex and myself included, are kind of going, why would a seventeen year old have that kind of money A and B Why would he be willing to share it with a stranger halfway around the world just because she. Asked for it. But it did seem like Thomas had the money. For Christmas that December, he sent some pretty lavish gifts for a twelve year old and they came in from the mail.

26:19 There's no question that this happened, and they were sent from Thomas to Amy. He sent things like a brand new iPhone, a diamond necklace, a ring, some book collections that she had wanted to read. And this again seemed really over the top in Alex's point of view, but Julie wasn't alarmed. She says, you know, Thomas was just like this. I mean, even in the last thirty days or so, he had sent Julie twenty five hundred dollars to help her pay her rent and her electricity bill. And this seems all good, and all of that and it seems too good to be true, but it was true because Julie was paying bills out of this bank account with this money.

27:03 So Alex, seventeen year old Alex, is like, this is weird as hell. I don't know. I don't have that kind of money, you know, as a kid. He's like, I don't have that kind of money. Why does this guy have this kind of money? And why is he willing to just share it with you? This just seems like. A lot of money, a lot of gifts, a lot of kindness. You know. Well, a couple of days later, Alex then got winn that Thomas was going to be coming to the US and he was planning to come and visit Amy at their house. So Alex flipped out and was like, this is not happening. He goes nuts in the house. So he's freaking out on his mom and he's like, you're gonna let this complete stranger come to our country and then come stay in our house with my little sister?

27:50 Are you nuts? And Julie calmly, she wasn't even upset. She said, you've got to calm down. Amy and Thomas have been friends, been friends for six eight months, now he's helped us out financially. He is a good guy. He's not done anything to you, and you need to calm down. And that's when Amy broke the news as well that Thomas wasn't actually seventeen now he's actually twenty one. But Julie, when she found this out, didn't panic. Julie told Amy, well, listen, wow, I thought he was fifteen and now he's seventeen. Okay, now he's twenty one. But you know what, Amy, age isn't everything, and he can be kind to you. There's nothing wrong with him being kind to you. And that's when Julie sat Amy down and she told the story about the student and teacher that had a relationship years ago and then the teacher of the female teacher ended up going to jail because of the inappropriate relationship, but they ended up still getting married, and so age isn't everything.

29:11 I know, you're probably easy. If you're driving in traffic right now, you're probably slamming on your brakes freaking out. Okay, but calm down. But that's what Julie did. She told her little girl that age isn't everything. So Alex is shooting to the moon at this point stroking out at this idea, and he made such a big deal that Julie was like, you know what, you know what, I'm not even I'm not even dealing with this. Everybody separate, and the drama kind of died down. Regardless of the drama at the house. A few days later, in January, Julie made good on her Hawaii trip promise and she and Amy set out on their girls trip. Twelve year old Amy and her mom Julie, jumped on a plane and they were off to have the vacation of a lifetime. Now, Alex didn't go on this trip a girl's trip, but he also wasn't aware of something. He wasn't aware that before they actually made it to Hawaii, his mother and his sister were going to be making a stop in Colorado. Well what was in Colorado? It turns out, unbeknownst to Alex, that Julie had spoken to Thomas and they decided that on January sixteenth they would all meet in real life at the Hyatt in Cherry Creek, and they followed through with those plans. Thomas and his mother flew in and Julie and Amy drove together and they all met up at the hotel.

30:41 Now, during this time. Julie already knew that Thomas was twenty one. But while they're driving, twelve year old Amy drops another bombshell, Mom, I think you need to know that Thomas isn't actually twenty one, he's twenty three. And Julie did what we all would do, and she kept driving straight through to the hotel. Yeah right, okay, none of us in our right minds would do that, but Julie did because she said, Thomas is a good guy and we're just going to go.

31:26 They were all going to be staying the night at the hotel to do a little meet and greet in real life, and then head out to Hawaii the next day together. So they met up at the hotel, and that's when Julie realized that there were only two beds in the hotel room and there was no room for her to stay. So again she did, like I like to say, what any of us would do, and she left her twelve year old daughter there. Julie left to go visit a friend and stayed with a friend, while Amy, twelve year old Amy stayed with twenty three year old Thomas and his mom in a hotel room, people she had never met in real life. All went well, though, and the next morning they all headed out for Hawaii.

32:15 And this is even better. Thomas was kind enough to pay for everything for everyone on this trip. It was like a fairy tale, a dream come true. They could never have afforded this on their own. Julie was unemployed, barely making ends meet. And Thomas not only bought the flight tickets, he bought the hotel, He bought everything. One thing that did seem to surprise Amy, though, was the flying arrangements. So Thomas had bought the tickets and he purchased all of them. But something happened because they weren't all able to fly together. Matter of fact, on the flight to Hawaii, Amy and Thomas flew together on you know, airlines, while both of the moms flew on American airlines. They didn't even fly on the same plane.

33:08 But Julie's like, oh, well, we're all going to the same place. We're all gonna meet there and land in the same place anyway, so it doesn't really matter. And once they got into Hawaii, they did all sorts of fun things. They rented a car, they drove around, they went shopping, they got hats and sunglasses. They ate at all the restaurants. Matter of fact, Thomas's mom is the one who paid for the food for everyone while they were on their vacation. Amy even overheard her mom, Julie, though, promising to pay them back one day if she found a job. They were all just really thankful for this experience and getting to travel. But strangely, again, the Hawaii resort that they booked only had one bedroom. Must have been an oversight, so Julie and Thomas's mom shared the bed in the bedroom, while twenty three year old Thomas and twelve year old Amy shared the pullout couch up in the living room. The trip was a blast though.

34:12 They had a great time and then they all had to head home when the plane touched down or should I say planes? Why kell are you making that differentiation because Julie and Amy flew back separately on different flights from Hawaii. Like the twelve year old flew alone back from Hawaii and her mother flew back on a different flight, you would have to they ain't no way I would swim back with my kid before I'm gonna separate her on a plane. That's insane. We would stay together, but Julie doesn't seem like she's gonna win Mother of the Year. So when they got back, it was back to life as they knew it. And this also included meeting up with their son, her son, Alex, And this date was January twenty fifth when they got home, and on that date a nine to one one call was made from the house and it was Julie calling telling them I need help. My son is going ballistic and I fear for our safety. Me and my younger daughter are in danger.

35:11 Please get here quick. So the police come flying up and they start asking questions and Amy says, look, my son's been acting very angry lately. Alex was really upset about finding out how old this guy was. Well, what had happened before they even went to Hawaii is that Alex directly asked his mother about how old Thomas was, and she told him the truth up to that point, that he was twenty one. And Alex did what any brother would do. He ran upstairs and tried to rip the door off the damn hinges freaking out, and so Amy ran and hid in the bathroom and she said, and I just kind of stopped talking to my brother as much after that, and then shortly thereafter that's whenever we went to Hawaii with Thomas. And everyone's like, wait, what, that's when Thomas and you talked about going to Hawaii and then y'all went to Hawaii.

36:05 That doesn't make sense. I thought your mom had planned this Hawaii trip And Amy's like, no, Thomas had said we should go to Hawaii. So this was Thomas's idea And Amy says, yes, both she and her mom were going through a very stressful time and Thomas had offered this trip because he said it would help both of them to kind of get away and relax. So when asked about the relationship between her and Thomas changing, like when did this become a relationship, she said it did kind of after her mom had had money problems and she started getting money and gifts from Thomas, and then it kind of was alleviating some of the problems at the house. And she also said that Thomas and her mother had spoken privately about her money problems and they decided, but just between the two of them, that he would help her with the bills and rent. Amy didn't really have much to do with that so basically, he sent money to Julie and then Thomas sent a phone around the same time to Amy so that she could use the phone to contact him.

37:12 And so you're like, well, why would this twelve year old need a phone, you know? And that phone was sent to her under the guys that it could keep her safe from her brother Alex if he could be if Thomas could stay in contact with her since her brother was acting crazy. So it's like, let me get this straight. You met a guy online in a help site for depression. He's fifteen years old, y'all start talking, then he's seventeen, then he's actually twenty one, Okay, well actually now he's twenty three. And your mom knew this the whole time, and Amy says yes, And then he starts sending your mom lots of money and you get a phone and you're getting gifts from this same guy where y'all are facetiming and talking all the time, and Amy says yes. So was there any contact, like any sexual contact between you and Thomas? Amy goes, oh, no, no, no, no, no no. So then the police did some questioning of Julie.

38:14 They said, Julie, do you know how old Thomas is and she says, no, I don't know how old he is. Julie, do you know that she was sending photos of herself to Thomas? And Julie says no, she wasn't doing that. Police said, well, did Thomas send you money and gifts or Amy money and gifts? And she says, yeah, he was sending stuff and that's when the police let her know. So, from what we gather, it's approximately ten thousand dollars worth of money that he has sent you. And she agrees, yeah, he sent me some money. So did you ever see your daughter acting sexually with Thomas? And she's like, no, not really. I mean they did hold hands in Hawaii and play foot see, and they did wrestle around with each other. She did kiss him on the cheek, but I didn't see anything sexual. Okay, Julie, did you talk to Thomas about having sex with your daughter?

39:12 And she says yes. So the cops are like, okay, can you explain because she's twelve, And she claimed that she and Amy had a conversation and she told Amy, do not have sex with Thomas because he's a nice guy and he'll get in trouble and I'm like, no, not no, but hell no, not because he's twenty three. Are you listening to me? Hello? Hello, Hello? Not because he's twenty three, She says, don't have sex with him because he might get in trouble. Red Flag America, Where are you at? Because what is that about? So, as you can guess, the police are now looking at Amy and the mom and are like, these two are full of shit. Something's up, something is not passing the sniff test here. So that's when they go and they question Alex. Remember, mom called the police because Alex was acting crazy and dangerous and they feared for their lives.

40:05 So they're like, why are you so upset about this trip, Alex? And he frankly says he looks at the police in their eyes, and he says, because I think my mother is prostituting my sister out for money. Boom, there it is that seventeen year old boy looks at the cops and openly accuses his own mother of this. And then he gives more details of all the money transfers, all the gifts combined with all the money he's seeing deposited, much of which I want you to know I didn't go into detail with y'all. But there was six hundred dollars deposits here, seven hundred deposits there, two thousand dollars deposits here. It goes on and on and on. So police hearing what this boy is saying, are really believing just in his character and what he's saying and how angry he is. And they felt like Alex was genuine in his beliefs, So they started to dig into the phone records and the financial records.

41:00 It would pay off big time. Remember, Mom says she had no clue as to any sexual relationship that might have been going on between her twelve year old and now twenty three year old male who she just vacationed with. But this is what the police uncovered. There was a ring purchase made on her account, as in a diamond ring, not a cheap one, a big diamond ring. So police are like, was Julie engaged? Why is there this ring purchase? So they asked Julie what is this ring about? And Julie acknowledged, Oh, yeah, I did go purchase a ring. Thomas sent the money to me to buy an engagement ring for my twelve year old daughter, and I went and bought it for him to give to her. What in the hell is this real life? Is all I can say.

41:56 Amy. On the other hand, she was questioned about did you get a ring from Thomas? And she said, oh, yeah, I got a really pretty ring from him. And they were like, okay, so y'all are engaged, and she's like, no, what are you talking about engagement? No, I just it was a really pretty ring and he bought it for me. So now you have an issue. You have your twelve year old daughter is engaged to a twenty three year old in your mind, but your daughter doesn't know that she's engaged to a twenty three year old. Like, on what planet? Anyway? Do you think that this is okay? Lady? On what planet? So they did further research of the home and of all of the electronic devices. Now I want to stop real quick for one second and let you know that I know some people let their young teens listen to this.

42:37 You may want to exit stage left at this point because the rest of this is not going to be I wouldn't be letting my young teens listen to this necessarily. You've been warned, all right. So they did the further search of the home and they found electronic devices. They found the receipt for the ring that was bought and in fact was a diamond ring. They found packaging for a vibrator where was the vibrator packaging in the twelve year old's room, as well as two condoms that were out of the package, lubricant, a receipt from Atlantic Innovations LLC for a free action G spot and Clint vibrator, fifty shades at ease anal lube and Climax bursts anal lube and the receipt for the items was there as well and it was shipped directly to the twelve year old girl name on it in December of twenty fourteen before the Hawaii trip which was in January, and it was purchased by none other than Thomas Keski. The fifteen and seventeen then twenty one now twenty three year old Julie's PayPal account was reviewed and they found transfers from Thomas kesk seven hundred and thirty dollars three thousand, two hundred and fifty five dollars, as well as other bank deposits at other counts at other banks. There were transfers for one thousand, six hundred and forty five dollars, one

44:07 hundred and seventy five dollars, one hundred and twenty nine dollars, twenty dollars, eight hundred and thirty seven dollars, five hundred and five dollars, seven hundred and forty five dollars, amongst others. And these payments were consistently deposited. Almost like a payroll would be deposited. They also found an ID photo for Thomas and it showed his date of birth as eleven twenty seven ninety one. It proved that he was well into his twenties. There was an iPod found that was searched. Once they got it and they plugged it in, the police searched it and guess what they found. I'm going to read straight from the warrant for you because I don't want to add lib this. I'm gonna tell you exactly what the warrant says. Within Amy's iPod. By the way, Amy again is not a real name. I'm just inserting that. Within Amy's iPod, there are numerous screenshots containing images of video chats occurring between Amy and a male who appears to be Thomas based on comparison to the photos on the ID on the UVU app Within these images, it is observed one screenshot where the large picture appears to be Thomas and it shows his face in the area just below his collarbone. He does not appear to have a shirt on. It appears he is in a bathtub based on it looking as if there is tile and a tub just behind him. The smaller image on the chat

45:39 is located in the top right hand corner. This image is of Amy. She appears to be in the seated position. Amy appears to be topless and her right breast is exposed. And another screenshot located on the iPod, the large image appears to be Thomas. He's wearing a large sorry, he's wearing a dark color jacket or shirt of some type. The smaller image on the chat is located in the top right hand corner and is of a female's unclothed body. The female appears to be lying down. The photo shows the area just under the breasts down to the area near the top of the thighs. The front portion of the female's vagina is visible in the photograph.

46:25 Wow. They also found conversations between the two that dated back from September twenty fourteen, where Thomas admitted with his own mouth that he was twenty two years old and he loved the fact that Amy was only twelve. There were some extremely sexual messages sent from Thomas to Amy. But I'm gonna tell y'all something. I'm not a prude or anything, but I'm not going to read these line for line, especially since they were sent to a child. He's just very specific about what he's gonna do to her. He talks about licking her and the things he wants to do to her. But just because she's so young, I'm not reading on word for word. I think you can get the gist without me doing it, and I would just find it uncomfortable, just way too uncomfortable. The things that he said to a child. A couple of things I will read that he said to her. He said, thank you Amy for quote unquote doing that, and he tells her that he loves her, but not just because she did that. He also said, and the thing you did with your finger, Oh my god, thank you so much. He also on in September, Amy had sent him some type of file and said, my mom said to give it to you.

47:43 Something else that came up was that Thomas back in November was apologizing to Amy and saying that he's dealing with it whatever it is, but Amy needs to go talk to her mom about her options. Thomas talked about needing to delete his Facebook because her brother Alex was messaging him on it and he was worried, not of Alex, but he was worried that he might get arrested. So does this sound real kosher to you? Does this sound like something that is just a harmless friendship, because it doesn't to me. Back in October, they were messaging about how her mother knew how old he was. On October sixteenth, Thomas is asking the twelve year old Amy to fantasies, asking her to fantasize, and she comes back because she's a kid, and says, I'm having trouble understanding what you're asking me to do, and so he said, well, look up some inspiration, and she says, well, I'm confused. I don't know what that what you mean, and so he then sends her a link from pornhub and asks her to pick out things that she would like to try, and then he asked her to please prove that she wasn't wearing underwear, but she was like, I don't want to send a picture. Then on October twenty third, they started discussing her getting a visa so she couldn't marry him.

49:02 They talked about her living with him in three months or so, and so he then asks Amy, what is your mom saying, and Julie says, oh, mom wants to know what's the youngest that you can get married in Australia. She's going to send her kid off to Australia, her twelve year old to marry a twenty three year old. And then he says, we'll tell your mom thank you so much for trusting me. And then on October twenty sixth Amy was out to eat with her family but she was texting Thomas when she tells him that they are discussing her going to Australia, and they're discussing it because she is saying how her twenty three year old boyfriend is going to pimp her out there, and then they start talking about having sex in the future and Thomas starts joking around with the twelve year old girl, saying, ooh, I bet you want to poke holes in the condoms, and she says, oh, you don't even have to wear one, and he agrees and says, oh, heyah, that's cool. We'll just get you the morning after pill. And then he sends the twelve year old girl links about the morning after pill and how to use it.

50:08 Y'all. He's twenty three years old sending this to a twelve year old little girl. And the sex talk goes on and on and on at nauseum. It's like it's just too much. And then on November sixteenth, around the time that they had talked about him coming to visit them and when Alex had freaked out, Amy texted saying her mom said that he can stay upstairs in her bedroom with her, and Thomas responds to Amy saying, we'll tell your mom. We're not just going to be having a bunch of sexy sex. I want you with me too. So there's no doubt that Julie knew what was going on with her daughter and has lied completely to the police.

50:49 Here's some other things. On November twenty fourth, Thomas and Amy are texting and they're talking about the fact that Julie made an appointment for her twelve year old daughter to get birth control so that once she gets it and gets it over with, they don't have to worry about dealing with birth control in the future. And so she did, in fact go to the doctor and she told Thomas that she got aneuva ring inserted. They're also talking about the fact that Thomas is telling her that he's pooping, and the reason he's pooping so much is because this is what happens after anal and Thomas goes on to say how they have. To try it at least once. If she doesn't like it, they don't have to do it again, but she needs to at least try it once to see what it feels like, and it just it gets sicker and sicker and sicker from there.

51:40 I mean, this is just unconscionable. Thomas absolutely is saying the most vile and disgusting things to this little girl. And there's no doubt that Julie knew what was going on with her daughter has completely lied to the police. So police confronted her about these discrepancies, the obvious problems with her story, and Julie said she never asked or talked to Thomas about his age, nor did her daughter ever tell her about his age, clearly acting as if it was the twelve year old child's job to tell her who she was talking to. That's a parent's job. Julie then told the police, Oh, well, the reason I let her see him was because Amy started acting suicidal again and I was feeling.

52:27 Really bad about it. Clearly, she's now putting the blame on her twelve year old daughter for forcing her hand. Again, it's the twelve year old's fault, she says, I let her talk to him because she you know, I don't want her to hurt herself, and I definitely don't want her to run away again, blaming the daughter for the contact with the twenty three year old man because of her emotional state rather than her failure to parent. They asked her, did you see them act sexually together? Julie says no, yet she left her daughter alone with him in a hotel room overnight, so of course she didn't see it. She didn't stick around to see it. She did say, oh, well, they held hands and they kissed in Hawaii when we were shopping. What the fuck do you think was happening, Julie, nobody's that stupid, so you were scared you said at one point of not being able to meet back up with her, when y'all flew separately on the way there, you were just worried because you were afraid y'all wouldn't meet up again. But you were felt safe enough to let her fly off with Thomas alone on a separate plane. But then when they flew back, they flew back completely separately. You didn't, you weren't worried about your twelve year old. Then it sure does seem like you let your daughter just fly off into the sunset. So she was bluntly asked about her son questioning her about a grown man facetiming with his naked twelve year old sister, and she said, oh, well, I thought Alex made it up, but I did go in the room later and check and I didn't see anything.

54:00 And then, to top it all off, she had no answer for the fact that she was willing to marry off her minor child to an adult who wanted to pimp her out in Australia. All Julie could do was deny, deny, deny. The fact is she couldn't make this make sense. Her son, Alex, had been right all along and had told the truth in the mindset of trying to save his little sister, and if his mother wouldn't do it, then he would do what he had to do. And he told the police everything he knew and he held nothing back. So the FBI and the Australian Federal Police also got involved and they executed a search warrant and they found evidence that Thomas was still communicating with that twelve year old Amy, even after all the time that they thought that the communication might have been cut off. What happened was CPS had gotten involved, and so Julie had cut off all contact herself with Thomas. Clearly the only reason she did it though, was because she was fearing for her own freedom. Thomas, though, had now converted. He no longer had his social and texting messages because those could be tracked right digital tracking.

55:15 So he was handwriting and mailing notes to the twelve year old which Julie was passing to her daughter. She was still also receiving money. The mother was receiving money from Thomas. Amy's handwritten letters to Thomas when they went and did a warrant check on the house had not been mailed yet, and one of them contained the bombshell that the twelve year old was pregnant and she was calling the baby by the name Clara primnos Keski, Thomas's name. Julie tells the police she's feigning. Oh my god, I had no idea. This is crazy. I didn't know she was pregnant. Also didn't know she was still talking to Thomas.

56:03 Are you serious. Another letter they found stated that the twelve year old had miscarried, but the police were trying to get her DNA and trying to get DNA off of clothing. So Amy in her letter states to Thomas that she's refusing to give up the clothing and said this was to give Thomas time to run. Amy was removed from her mother's care as police tried to continue to investigate this. She was removed for about three weeks from her mother's care, and when she returned, she wrote in a journal which I find personally to be convenient and seemingly coached. Because here's an excerpt from that journal. Tell me what you think it says. In the journal found during the search warrant, a large amount of the information appears to be research on Finland and why she wants to move to Finland. In the journal, there's a page where Amy documents that we stopped talking, we being her and Thomas on April twenty second.

56:58 At seven oh five a. She then wrote on. The page what date it was and how long it had been since they talked, and in one entry, Amy said, I expected I expected this. He never did anything. I never talked to him naked, nor did I sleep with him. He was just being generous. He never even asked for a kiss, which is why it's unfair for them to pursue him in an investigation. And she goes on to say she should have killed her brother Alex. Also in the journal is a page that says an FBI psychologist and Hi to an FBI psychologist, tell them, I say, Hi, here's the fingerprint. Love.

57:39 Amy doesn't that That doesn't sound like a twelve year old. To me, that sounds like a twelve year old being told what to write so that nobody gets in trouble. She was dating it. I can't even get seniors to put their names on papers half the time, but she's dating and time stamping and putting number. I don't know, absolutely not. After weighing all of the evidence, the police ultimate believed her brother Alex, and they placed Julie Grinder He under arrest for a human trafficking of a minor for sexual servitude, pimping a child, and sexual assault of a child with a pattern, because what they saw is what we all just heard, that he was paying Julie for access to her daughter which she was willing to give. This is absolute trafficking of a child. This is actolute, absolute sexual abuse.

58:24 Thomas Keske was also arrested and he was charged in Australia. You want to know what he got. He received two years and they suspended it after he only served twenty eight days. Tell me he's not gonna do this again. Tell me that that penalty is gonna work. Yeah. Right. Julie's charges of pimping a child and sexual assault were eventually dismissed by the prosecutors. According to the court records. This left the human trafficking of a minor for sexual servitude as the only thing on the table, and she would eventually plead guilty. Now this is where I got frustrated, and I'm hoping maybe some people in Colorado can reach out to me and help me. I searched high and low for what her sentence was.

59:22 I know that she faced eight to twenty. Four years, but she also was eligible for probation in her role of this. I could not find where she was sentenced. Jimothy, producer Jimothy even tried to help me find it. I even made a phone call to the courts. I called Colorado and the courthouse was closed. It closed at noon today, so boo. So I couldn't get any information there. I hate ending not knowing exactly what happened to her, but the fact that I can't find it seems to be a bit concerning to me. Does anyone in Colorado know this? Did it make your local news because I couldn't find it, Let me know, Please message me. But I can tell you this, that's not enough. Neither one of these got enough for what that child dealt with.

1:00:06 And I'm telling you I did not give you all of the horrific details because it's just too much from my mom, from my mama heart to tell you what all that little girl was doing and her mother was getting paid the entire time for it. That's a shitty human being. As far as being a parent, that's our number one job to protect our kids at all costs. So, Julie, just so you know, regardless what your sentence was, you failed as a mother. And I don't. I don't go around advocating for aggressiveness and for fighting people. You know. That's not That's not what I'm for. And I'm pretty laid back. But don't get it twisted, because I will lean forward real quick