Part 3 | Bullet in the Brain: The Shocking Ryan Waller Case

0:06 Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast. Or I tell stories of real crimes with real victims, whose cases are so shocking that many are left wondering how is this even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections, and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator, dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so evil many feel they are unspeakable. Warning. Unspeakable as intended for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey y'all, kJ you're back another episode of Unspeakable. I know you've been waiting.

1:02 You're like, oh my god, how are there three parts to this? There are? It's because there are, and I have don Hella research to bring all this to you. So we're gonna jump back in. But first let me do a couple of shout outs. And I'm gonna start in Santan Valley, Arizona, where I have got miss Nicki French. What's going on? NICKI? How are you doing? Glad to have you join. You have a cute name too, Nicki French. I think that's really cute, So glad to have you. And then I'm gonna jump right here in my backyard in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where I have Jackie Mayhew. Hi Jackie, where are you at in Baton Rouge? Tell me some stuff. I went to school in high school in Baton Rouge. I went to Broadmoor. So are you around that area where yeat? Message me let me know. I'm curious, and then I'm gonna finish off today in Oakalla, Florida, where I have Miss Nicole Dupree. Nicole, what is going on?

1:52 My friend? Thank you so much for joining the Patreon. We're stoked to have you here. We can chat, we can do all sorts of things on their so y'all talk to me. That's why I'm there. I love chit chatting. You can see pictures, crime scene stuff, video, just certain things that I'll go and I'll add in there on these episodes as I cover them. But and I'm not going to leave Florida just yet, because Nicole, I have girl. Are you listening to me? Are you really listening to me right now? Are you watching the screen while I'm talking to you? I hope that you're paying close close attention because you're busy right now being a newly promoted boss over some ultrasound peeps. That's what I have been told, because your girl Jackie reached out to me and she told me that she's just extremely proud of you. She is happy to see that you have gotten promoted and that you're just killing it over there. And so I wanted to just be special here just for you, jump on that bandwagon and tell you that I'm proud of you too. I'm excited for you as a woman's woman.

2:56 Anytime someone gets promoted in their job and then all their friends are rally around, I'm telling him that you're just doing a great job. I just want to back that up. So your friend Jackie said she just wanted to make sure you know that everyone in the clinic is proud of you. I want you to know that I am too, and I'm rooting you on. So stick that in your back pocket. Tell everybody you know that kJ said she's proud of you, and then I'm going to jump right on end to this episode. Now, you always asked me, can we get a quick recap? Of course, I am here to serve you. So a lot of people were in the Ryan Waller episode. Remember that a lot of people came forward and they believed that it was a former roommate of Ryan's that had been kicked out. This was Richie. They believe that he was probably to blame for the shootings that took place, and one witness even said that Richie seemed to go on the run right after the murder and attempted murder occurred, and so that was pretty odd. Now while police are learning about that, Ryan miraculously survived being shot in the head and then the surgeries that followed, and he was a Once he started coming back around from recovery, he was able to tell detectives that he could remember some things and he wanted to share that to the best of his ability. Specifically, he told detectives he knew he knew that Richie had shot him, but after he was able to say that the brain injury made some things still a bit foggy, including what all Richie's father may have had to do

4:27 with the entire situation. So police at that point felt like they did have enough to arrest Richie, and they stormed his house only to find that it was empty, but they were able to take him into custody at another location without incident. Shortly thereafter. As soon as they got him, Richie was refusing to talk. He lawyered up immediately, and that's when a phone call came into headquarters and a voice on the other line said Richie didn't do it. So that's where we're picking up. Who was that voice and how did this person seem to I know so much about this shooting? And also could this person be believed? Well, that voice was none other than Cheryl Carver. This is Richie's mama. It's Larry's wife that had called nine one one and wanted to speak to the detectives. Now I know what you're thinking right now. Oh well, hell Kelly, of course she was going to call and say her baby didn't do it. Well, it was much more than that, my friends. Okay, But before I go into detail about that discussion, I want you to know that police had already made another huge move in the case, which is what may have actually prompted her to call, because when Richie clammed up on his arrest, they now knew that they were going to have to go after Larry. They were going to have to go get him. Larry by now obviously would know that his son had been arrested, and if Larry was involved, he knew that his day

5:59 is a free and more likely limited. This would mean that he might skip town. So everything considered, police wanted to catch Larry before it may be too late. If Larry wasn't involved, then he could talk to the police and he could explain what happened. Either way, Larry Carver was now the main suspect or main subject really of the attention of police. So two days after Richie was arrested, the Special Assignments Unit was briefed on the task at hand. Larry wasn't just someone going to work every day in a suit and tie in the corporate world that would necessarily just turn around and put his hands behind his back whenever they walked in and said, hey, Bud, we want to talk to you. Larry was a guy that liked to do drugs, and he liked to frequent bars.

6:46 And if you're from the area, I'll let you know. He liked to frequent the bars in the Glendale Road in the thirty fifth Avenue area. So based on that information, Larry wasn't necessarily going to be an easy catch. So based on intel that the police got, Larry may be hyped up on meth and he also may be suicidal, so this is not a good combo. He had a history of being unstable and violent with no love for the police. He very much was anti authority. He had several previous incidents with law enforcement, including domestic violence issues, aggravated assaults, and a suicide attempt, and all of this was on record. So the plan was simple. Staged the entire response squad with eyes on Larry's house, and then they were gonna wait for movement or arrival of their target.

7:42 In the meantime, other detectives were out prowling the areas that he was known to frequent to see if they could spot him out and about. Because Larry Yaul was not employed, he kind of did his own thing, so lo and behold if their intel wasn't correct. When Detective Dalton spotted Larry Recarver on the very corner of thirty fifth Avenue in a seven eleven parking lot, so he alerted the team and said, look, he's over here, he's not at the house, and they responded to the store where they took him into custody believe it or not, without incident. And that's great. I know, we always want these big, bang up stories of arresting people, but when the police can do it safely and securely, that's a win.

8:24 So they took him into custody, but when they were putting the cuffs on him, they noticed that his wrists were slit and so they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know what happened here? Why are you bleeding? What happened to your wrists? And he said, look, I cut my wrists last night, and they say, okay, why would you do that? But he didn't really give much of an answer. He just kind of said, it is what it is. So police called medical. They responded they did have to bandage up his wrists before he was continue to be taken into custody, and they brought him to the jail. It was seven days later that Larry's wife and Richie's mom, Cheryl, made the call to police. So I want you to kind of understand it as it happened. She didn't call the police right after Richie was arrested. She called after Larry was arrested. So on February seventeenth, there would be four people in on that conversation when Cheryl called, and this is going to be very important. That's why I'm pointing it out to you. Four people were involved in this conversation, Detective Porter, Detective Dalton. They were in tandem speaking on one phone to Cheryl who called in, who also was sitting next to her best friend Brenda. As she had spoken to the police. So, as you know where I left off, Cheryl said, Richie didn't shoot anyone.

9:48 So when she just volunteered that statement, Richie didn't shoot anyone, kind of caught off guard by that unsolicited claim, detectives just said, okay, well was he there and her response was direct quote, I guess so, So as her story went, she said Richie had moved out of Ryan's house around Thanksgiving, roughly two weeks before the shooting took place. Larry and Ritchie had gone back over to Ryan's house to look for his pet iguana that Richie had when he previously lived there, but it had gotten loose, so while they were there, she said that Ryan pulled a gun on Larry and Richie. After that incident is whenever a rumor started that Ryan had done more than just pull a gun on them, but that Ryan was saying that he pistol whipped Richie in that incident. When that rumor started, Larry and Ritchie did not take too kind to it because that didn't happen. Ain't nobody pistol whipped anybody, and it pissed them off that people were spreading that information.

10:58 So obviously this had hurt some egos, and her son and husband wanted to cut ways completely with Ryan and that house. This included finding that iguana and also retrieving a vehicle that Larry was storing at Ryan's house because remember he brought it there before when his son was still living there. Just to be clear, it was a nineteen sixty five buick. And when police spoke to the landlord of Ryan's home again, she would confirm that she had absolutely seen an iguana that was loose. I think he was in the backyard. And she did call and she spoke to a woman named Cheryl and told them, look, the iguana's loose. I'm worried about it. Y'all might want to come get it. I know Richie's not living here anymore.

11:48 So all of the stuff that Cheryl was saying to this point, she really did seem to be telling the truth, because that landlord confirmed what Cheryl was saying. So. Cheryl went on to explain that around eight pm on December the twenty third, Larry and Ritchie loaded up in her pt cruiser. She had a maroon Pte Cruiser. She said, they loaded up in her car and they went to go get the rest of Richie's stuff and be done at that house, and as far as she knew, they did. But whenever they returned back home about an hour later, Larry was completely and totally on edge. He was frazzled.

12:29 And that's when thinking back on it, she realized they didn't come back with any items in hand though, because they didn't drive back with the buick, they didn't have the iguana, and they had also mentioned a microwave that they wanted to go get. They didn't have any of that in their hands. All that happened was Larry ran into the house and told her the direct quote, I got to get the fuck out of here. I fucked up a killed to people. He then grabbed some of his stuff through some clothes in a bag whatever, and she said he bolted within ten minutes of coming back to the house. As for her son, Richie, he never said anything during all of this she said, he just kind of stood there and Larry was freaking out. But I got to bring something up real quick. You need to remember, Larry was a dope head. Larry was a meth head, so he was unstable and his behavior. I would assume with my experience with people that are on methamphetamines, this is somewhat common of people that are doing that drug.

13:41 People on meth are erratic, they're paranoid, and they often think that people are after them. So if Larry was a drug addict that liked to use meth and all those type of things, put yourself in that position that his erraticism probably was somewhat normal for him. So Cheryl explained that within those ten minutes of him packing up his shit, he left out for California, and the detectives said when she said, right, then, he left very late on the twenty third. He stayed for two days in California, but he came back on Christmas Day. She knew this for a fact because she said she Larry and all of their kids that I think they had a total of five. They all went out to eat at Denny's for Christmas Brunch, and she said, all of us were there.

14:32 They had three grownish daughters and two sons, including Richie. Okay, so that's where I get the five from. Larry told Cheryl while they were at brunch that he had gone and visited with his mom and his sister, as well as a female cousin that was there. Now, police were curious at this point, if Larry was running from allegedly killing two people, why the hell did he come back just two days later for Christmas? That seems kind of weird. If you go on the run, why did you show back up just two days later? Well, the answer would be kind of funny, really ridiculous actually, in comparison to have you know, allegedly committed to murders here or attempted murder.

15:13 So police responded and said, oh, he didn't trust you. He thought like you were going to tell that he had said that he had shot two people, And she's like, no, no, no, wasn't that He thought that I might be having an affair while he was gone. That sounds stupid as hell to me. Okay, but then again, this is a meth heads train of thought. So I guess that's kind of what he thought. My woman's gonna be cheating on me while I'm gone. It was the next day after Christmas that the phone rang at their house and it was that friend Chunk that I mentioned in previous episodes, looking for Richie, and she told Chunk, Richie isn't here. That her other son, Larry Junior, had taken him to Paradise Valley back on the twenty third, and that Cheryl said was when she was made aware by Chunk that a shooting did actually take place. She didn't know that that was actually real. She kind of maybe thought Larry was tripping out on meth. But Larry wasn't just high on meth running his head. It looked like there really was a shooting, and Chunk had verified that when he called.

16:21 So it was at that point when Larry and Cheryl started to have a conversation about what the hell happened. And this was what Larry told Cheryl allegedly about what had happened. Larry had taken a gun with him to Ryan's house the night of the twenty third when they left. Cheryl didn't know what gun he took exactly, but she did tell police the bullets that he had were for a twenty two. This by the way matches, the medical reports, the autopsy of Heather Kwan's shooting, the caliber bullet, as well as the fragment believed to be in Ryan's brain. So, so far, what Cheryl was saying with no other knowledge, no other information given to her by police. Obviously, everything she was saying was making complete sense with the information collected so far in the investigation. Now, how they got into Ryan's house, she didn't know. She wasn't sure, but Larry said that he confronted Ryan in the kitchen area and pulled out his gun on him, saying, Oh, okay, so you're telling everybody you pistol whipped us. Huh, that's what you're doing. You're going around town telling people you pistol whipped us. But before Ryan could say anything or respond, Larry said he reared back and he struck Ryan in the face with the gun to pistol whip him. But whenever he hit Ryan, Larry allegedly said that the impact made the gun go off. The bullet struck the floor and it ricocheted into Ryan's eye. Ryan then immediately collapsed

17:52 to the floor, and Larry, not missing a beat in this supposed accident, walked up on Ryan laying face down in blood, and he put another bullet in the back of Ryan's head. That's whenever he realized Heather was in the house. Because Heather didn't live there, he didn't know that Heather would be there. Realizing that she was there on the couch and that she could clearly id them for going into the house, he said he ran over to the couch and he shot a girl twice in the head. She immediately collapsed, falling dead on the pillow, and Larry followed up with saying he was pretty confident he didn't leave any witnesses. FYI, I want to add this in for you. When police had conducted that first search warrant at Richie's house whenever he was arrested, they did collect two revolvers, amongst other weapons and other items at that house. Those weapons, they thought, all right, well, these could possibly be the weapons that were brought in for the shooting, even though Cheryl was Richie's mom. Even though that was the case, she also told police in that same conversation she wasn't surprised. It wouldn't have surprised if her son may have been involved in drug activity and other risky behaviors, just like what was going on here.

19:06 After all, Richie was already on probation and had been released out from prison whenever this incident took place, It wasn't like this would have been completely out of character. It didn't shock her, But the question now became, why hadn't Larry said anything to her when Richie was arrested. If Larry knew he was the one who committed these murders and or murder an attempted murder, and not his son, why didn't Larry speak up to save Richie to son, Well, Cheryl knew the answer to that. And when I tell you, this is as stone freaking cold as cold can get in terms of a father and son relationship. Just listen to this, she said. She asked, Larry, you know what's going on here? If you shot those people, why is my son the one being arrested? And Larry's only response about Richie being arrested for what Larry said he did was quote, he'd do it to me in a heartbeat.

20:08 You you want to talk about callous, That is cold. I mean, damn, that is your son. And you're willing, according to Cheryl, to just let him take the fall for it because he'd do it to you and a heartbeat. So with all of this new information, police point blank wanted to know, Cheryl, are you willing to testify in court to all of this? And her answer was, in my opinion, something that only someone that was a domestic violence survivor would ever say, because her answer was again direct quote, if I make it so. Cheryl's friend Brenda, who I told you, was there when this conversation was happening.

20:52 She was on the line with Cheryl as this phone call was taking place. She spoke up and she further elaborated to detectives that they were both afraid of Larry and they were worried that Larry was gonna come kill Cheryl and then commit suicide. The fear seems like it was absolutely real, and based on how Larry was treating his son in this instance, I would say that it was pretty legitimate and a valid fear that he might come hurt her, come kill her. So what would Larry have to say about this huge revelation that his wife had just told police? Was Cheryl just trying to save her killer's son or was all of this true? So detectives decided that they now wanted to have a word with Larry, who was sitting in jail post his arrest.

21:46 Larry's interview started with that call from the former landlord about two weeks before Christmas, asking him if he had ever found his iguana, because she said she had seen him on the back porch the patio. That's where Larry picked up with explaining what was going on. He said that they went over there through a side gate and we went to go look for this iguana when a guy he said he didn't know, came to the sliding glass door, and so they asked if they could go inside and they could look for the lizard, and the guy agreed. Larry said that once they got inside and they explained what was going on, that they asked to search the guy's room, but the guy then eventually got extremely defensive, and Larry said, that's whenever this guy pulled a gun on my son, and he told them it's time for y'all to leave. Y'all better get out of here. Well, sometime later after that incident, he said, we just left, okay, this guy pulled a gun. Whatever, we don't want any trouble.

22:48 We just left. But sometime later Richie came back to Larry and said that that guy whose name was Ryan, was bragging to people that he had pistol whipped Richie and his dad. So Larry was very clear in this interview too. I was never pistol whipped nobody ever pistol whipped anybody. And I never went back to that house after that incident looking for the iguana again. So I don't know what this kid was talking about as Ryan, God, but we were never pistol whipped and I never went back to the house again after he pulled a gun on me. Well, they kind of brought up the murder. Okay, now they're talking about and they're like, well, you know what about this murder that took place over there, YadA, YadA, And Larry's response was, look, after I heard that there was a murder over there, I didn't even want my car back. I had a car being stored there. I didn't even want my car back. I didn't want anything to do with that house. That's crazy, and I just stayed away. As for Christmas, they say, what were you doing at Christmas? Larry? Can you tell us what you were doing during that timeframe? And he said, oh, I was at home, but I had been visiting my family in California before that for a few days. He even said he took his wife's pet cruiser. He specifically said he stayed with his cousin Tina, and he also stayed with his sister. So I hope as a listener right now you're seeing how these stories do all align. All of these stories are aligning. But the police are looking at this going we're missing something. There is something missing here. Yes, everybody's kind of echoing the same thing, but we're missing something.

24:19 What are we missing? But Larry was then directly confronted with the murder. The police said that we think you did it. We think that you were there. And the police told Larry in this interview that Richie told them that his dad did it. Now, I got to stop for a second and give you a little fyi here. Police are allowed to lie to you in an interview because Richie had not said that. He clammed up, but the police told Larry Richie said that everything about that is completely legal. And I'm just going to briefly explain this to you. But there was a Supreme Court case. It was Fraser v. Cup Okay, if you want to look that case up. But that establishes that it's allowed for police to lie to someone they are questioning. The deception tactics that police can use oftentimes help to elicit truthful information from suspects who otherwise might remain silent. Okay, so they can say, oh, your son said you did it, to see what Richie, I mean, to see what Larry's response would be to that. Okay. Now, what police cannot do.

25:31 Police cannot make fake documents. They can't make a fake video or a fake form or something like that and present that as real. But they can pretend to have more evidence than they do. They can misrepresent what someone else may or may not have said to that extent. That's what they can do. The reason behind this is because the truth won't ever change. So even if the police are lying in an interrogation to you, if they're saying we know you did it, okay, that shouldn't affect the truth very briefly. For example, if the police would have looked at Larry and said, dude, we have your fingerprints all over that house and they're lying, let's just say they're lying, Okay, Larry's gonna say, no, you don't if he didn't do it, and the police can totally have made up that evidence. But if Larry wasn't there, okay, If Larry wasn't there, and the police are saying, we have your prince there, Larry knows intrinsically they don't he wasn't there. The truth will never change. That's why police can say that, because it won't be able to change the physical evidence. You got me, I hope that makes sense.

26:38 So they told Larry that his son said he did it. Well, Larry scoffed at this. Literally, he laughed at this and said, that's ridiculous. Neither one of us did it. Richie must just be saying all this because he's scared because you arrested him. So police then decided to challenge Larry's ego a bit okay, and they asked him, so you don't care that someone in town, this young kid, this punk kid you know, is out here telling people that he pistol whipped you. That doesn't bother you in the slightest And Larry again started laughing, and he was like, man, that's kids stuff. I don't have any reason to go hurt that kid. That's kids stuff. He said, I got bigger problems in my life. And he expanded on the fact that he was heartbroken. He was heartbroken because he had separated from his wife and that was the biggest issue in his life right now, not some kid running his mouth saying that he had pistol whips. Larry. So to that point, said police said, well, your wife also told us that you shot those kids, Larry, what's that about?

27:42 And Larry looked at the police again, scoffed at that and said, I don't believe she said that to you. My wife didn't say shit to you. She wouldn't and she didn't. So with burglary in mind as the possible motive for the shootings, police asked a little bit further here, Well, considering that you're not employed, Larry, how is it that you were making money? How is it that you're living right now day to day since you don't have a job. Remember, everyone at this point believed that Richie and Larry went over to Ryan's house to rob him, and if you're unemployed, that kind of fits. That fits that that bill there. But Larry said, no, I was making money because I was selling off my stuff. For the time being, he said, I was selling off my tools and jewelry, and I had a bunch of music equipment and he said, I was selling all of that off and that's how I was living. Okay, Sure, whatever, if we want to believe that, we can believe that. You decide if you want to believe that or not. So obviously, Larry wasn't budging regardless of what was going on here. So police took a DNA sample from him and then they sent him back to his jail cell. Well, as police are trying to figure all of this out, they became very very interested, more so in Cheryl's friend Brenda, that had been in on that conversation. They they really were believing that if they spoke to Brenda by herself and they asked her questions without Cheryl sitting there, that she might feel more free to shed more light on the life that Cheryl was living when all of this went down. And their

29:15 suspicions on that were absolutely correct, because when they got back in touch with Brenda and Brenda was by herself and they were able to ask questions, this is what they learned from her. Brenda had known Cheryl and Larry for a very long time, and I think it was like fifteen years and Brenda knew that Larry's addiction was starting to take a very serious toll on Cheryl and on their marriage. The reason that Cheryl even had involved Brenda in all of the knowledge of the shooting was because she knew that Brenda was the only person in her life that would support her in doing the right thing, which in this instance, I mean is speaking up, speaking up to the police. Everyone else in Cheryl's life was just like Larry and her sons, anti law enforcement, anti authority, drug addicts who used violence to get whatever the hell they wanted. Brenda, however, if you want to look at her as an individual, she was a good person, y'all.

30:19 Brenda had morals, she had values. She matter of fact, she worked in the courthouse in like a security type role, dealing with probation and parole type stuff. So Brenda was a cut from a different cloth than these people. But she still was friends with Cheryl because she cared about her, you know, she liked her. And so Brenda explained that Larry was so erratic at this current point that Cheryl was just guaranteeing that Larry was going to kill her. Cheryl genuinely believed that Larry was going to come murder her if she spoke up, and so she had asked, Brenda, can I hide at your house? Please let me hide at your house, because I have to tell the police that my husband is responsible for killing two people's children.

31:08 You know. Brenda listened as Cheryl told her. There are parents out there right now that have lost their children. I know one girl's dead. I know that this other kid was shot in the head and he's in the hospital. You know. I don't know if she knew he was in the hospital, but she believed two people were dead. And she's like, I've got the answer to all of this. I hold the key to all of this. The right thing to do is to tell police. But in this same right, Cheryl was terrified of the repercussions of her husband, and the instances were just overwhelming. To back this up, because there were times, and Brenda is the one who brought this information up and gave it to police. There were times where her own son, Richie, had beat Cheryl up.

31:49 One time he even tried to break his own mother's arm in a scuffle. Richie had been known to beat up his sisters Larry and Richie when they would get into fights, would pull guns on each other when they got mad, and they're like in standoffs in the house pulling guns on each other. Cheryl had no normalcy outside of Brenda. Okay, her house was a total shit show. There was just craziness going on at all times. And so she had hidden at Brenda's after they initially called the police, Brenda and Cheryl. When they spoke to the police, Brenda left her house and never returned. She was hiding out at another house of Brenda's and she was just staying there, not wanting anyone to know where she was because she was so terrified of being murdered. So there was still so much work to be done if this case was ever to be proven and a conviction to be obtained. But this was great information to kind of build the picture of what was going on here. But solid evidence was needed, not just words and circumstances, and witnesses were now scared to talk. Witnesses like Cheryl. There was another man that police questioned that he wanted nothing to do with this, that was a friend. His name was Pete. I believe that was a friend of Larry's that dude had information, but he told police, you can lose my number. I don't want anything to do with this.

33:17 Very clear that they were dealing with some very very dangerous people here. So police wanted to find out a little bit more about that trip he took to California, and so they followed up with Larry's sister, her name was Janie, as well as this cousin that Larry had brought up. But both Janey and his cousin confirmed, yes, Larry absolutely did come visit us, but they were very clear that he showed up unexpectedly, very late on December the twenty third. They said that he came in a maroon PT Cruiser, that he stayed a day or two before he returned home Christmas morning. Those are direct answers from the questions from documents that I have. Okay, there is no question about this. It's in the documents. So it was pretty clear that everyone's story was now aligning with December twenty third as being the date of the shooting of Ryan and Heather. But what happened on that day and why Well continued investigation into phone records of both Heather and Ryan, as well as interviews with more people would lay out this timeline for you. The day that Heather and Ryan were shot, on the twenty third, Heather went to the mall with a friend of hers named Christina. They did that around one PM, and then they went back to Heather's dad's house where they took a nap. After they woke up from that nap, Christina

34:47 last spoke to Heather around four point thirty PM on the twenty third. Heather and her records. After that she spoke to another friend named Philippe, and that was a around six thirty pm. They talked on the phone, and then after they spoke on the phone, Heather and Ryan swung by Philippe's house just for a few minutes. Whatever happened there my personal belief. I have no proof of this whatsoever. It's just a personal belief, and so I'm going to say allegedly, and for entertainment purposes only, is that I do believe on all the research I've done, this may have possibly been some type of sale of something there, because they weren't there long, but they visited with this guy for a few minutes, and then a little while later, phone records showed that pizza had been ordered by Ryan and delivered from Papa John's to Ryan's house around seven forty six pm on the night in question.

35:47 That phone call was the very last outgoing phone call ever from Ryan's cell phone. The last outgoing phone call from Heather's cell phone was just a few minutes late at eight twelve pm after that radio silence. So whatever happened to these two people to Ryan and Heather had to have happened after eight twelve pm on December the twenty third. Cheryl's account was that Richie and Larry left their house to go look for the iguana at Ryan's around eight pm, and they returned back by nine pm. Is this aligning in your mind? Because it is in mind.

36:30 Sometimes though, stories will align during an investigation, but the facts will be somewhat skewed, and this makes it very difficult in live time to figure out what went on. And so I'm about to give you a case in point of this. If you've never done an investigation, maybe you don't realize how this goes because it's always cleaned up so well in documentaries and in podcasts and stuff like that. But I want to give you the nitty gritty here so you can see what detectives will really working with. So in a follow up interview with Southside Eric, Remember Southside Eric, all right, the iguana now was brought up because they learned about the whole iguana supposedly be in the reason that Richie and Larry went back to the house. But Southside Eric would kind of screw his face up at that and go, wait, what what do you mean? And that's when he tells police Richie's iguana had been dead. That iguana wasn't alive. On the twenty third, he said, we found that iguana dead in the pool a long time ago. Hell Raiser Eric, remember that one that was dating the roommate Alicia. Hell Raiser Eric also confirmed this in a follow up interview and added, yeah, the iguana had been dead. Ryan had thrown it over the fence when he found it drowned in the pool.

37:54 So not only that, but hell Raiser Eric also followed up with and said that he was there when Ryan had told not only Richie but his dad face to face that the iguana had died. Hell Razor was there when that conversation happened. He said they came over looking for the iguana. Ryan told him it died and then they're like, okay whatever. Ryan then sold both Richie and Larry some weed and then they left. And he said that occasion, that instance was well before December twenty third. That was way before that. So this meant that going to look for the iguana did happen, but the date that Larry was claiming it happened was a lie. The only reason that Larry would have to lie would be to skew the timeline. So liars do this. They'll use a lot of truth, but then they'll kind of spin it to change it to fit what they need. South Side Eric also said that Richie and Larry showed up at Ryan's house on another occasion before the shooting. Remember, and I keep bringing this up there, remember because I know it's been a long series here, but I want you to remember, Mom, Cheryl and Larry were now both

39:26 claiming that Ryan had pulled a gun on them, so they left. In a previous incident, I just told you about that a few minutes ago, where they went over there and said Ryan pulled a gun on them, and so they left. But Southside Eric had heard differently. He had heard that Richie and Larry had shown up looking for the iguana another time, and Ryan had let them in through the front door. They were all sitting on the couch when Richie got up and he went walking towards Ryan's room. Ryan got up to follow, to see, you know, what are you doing? Why are you going back in my room? And that's when Larry, out of nowhere, jumped up, pulled a gun out of his pants pocket, pointed it at Ryan and said, you're not going anywhere.

40:13 So Ryan's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But Ryan had a gun on him in this instance, he pulled his gun out. And so now Larry and Ryan are standing there basically in a standoff, pointing guns at each other. Well, that's when Richie returned out of Ryan's room and came down the hallway. He had something in his hand, but he was somewhat shocked when he came around the corner and saw his dad and Ryan in a standoff with guns. He dropped whatever he had in his hand, and eventually Larry lowered the gun and the Carvers both just left the house. But while they were leaving, Richie mumbled something under his breath that Ryan didn't like. While they were exiting and he heard that Ryan then popped Richie on the head with the gun as he walked out. So police then go and remember that Southside Eric giving that information.

41:07 Police then went and spoke to hell Raiser Eric again because they're like, there are so many instances here and the stories somewhat aligned, but they don't. So they go back to hell Raiser Eric in another interview and he would give way more insight into what actually happened in that incident that Southside Eric had just heard about. Okay, And that's because he was there when this incident happened. Remember, he was dating that roommate, Alicia. He moved out because they broke up. They broke up before the shooting, but he was there in this other incident as well. Okay. So hell Raiser Eric's account of the incident was similar to what Southside Eric had said, but there were a lot of differences too. Okay, So this is what happened.

41:55 Hell Raiser Eric was in his room and Ryan and Heather in Ryan's room. Someone started beating down the front door of the house so hard that hell Raiser was like, what the hell man? So he got up and he went to the front door, and when he opened it. Two men pushed their way past him and they went running back down towards Ryan's bedroom door, and they started trying to push their way into Ryan's bedroom. Hell Raiser went and grabbed a shotgun because he was like, what the hell's going on here? You know, why are these two guys busting up in the house. Well, the next thing hell Raiser knew, both Richie and Larry then came hauling ass full speed back down the hallway. Richie even fell, he was running so fast as he turned towards the front door to escape, and Ryan was just steps behind both Larry and Richie. He had a pistol in each hand and he was chasing them both off with guns in his hand like he was about to kill them both. Afterwards, when that whole shit show went down, Ryan told hell Raiser who the men were and said, yeah, I even popped the old man on the head with the gun while I was chasing him out of the house. So, if you're totally confused right now, that's okay if you're not wonderful, but you can see that these stories are similar, they kind of overlap, but there's just some differences in what the facts actually are. Well, when they showed a lineup of people to hell raiser Eric Okay, trying to

43:25 trust but verify what he was saying because he said he was there, he absolutely, one hundred percent picked Larry out of the lineup. He said, that's the guy. That's the guy that was with Richie. Okay. So basically these stories must have been where the pistol whipping rumors took off from. It was a different version of the same incident that had occurred at that house. But what was now like a light bulb going off was what Ryan himself had said in the hospital interview when he was recalling back when when they went and they talked to him during recovery, because remember he remembered being shot by Richie, but then he was just kind of foggy, but he clearly remembered Larry had pulled a gun on him. But he was like, it had to be two different instances because they don't go together. We all, Ryan was absolutely right.

44:20 Now police were figuring this out. There had been multiple instances at the house. They were just weeks apart. Ritchie and Larry went to go look for the iguana, found out that the iguana was dead and bought some weed from Ryan. Later on, Larry and Ritchie busted back up in the house, pushed back hell Raiser, Eric and probably were going back there to rob and get even with Ryan. Okay, for whatever reason, want to steal shit and whatever. And that's whenever Ryan supposedly hit one of them on the head, whenever he chased him out. After this, Larry and Richie he returned back to the house again because they wanted to get even for the rumor about supposedly being pistol whipped.

45:08 Is it now kind of aligning? But they told Cheryl the reason that they were leaving the house was to go get the iguana, because she had spoken to the landlord about it. Cheryl knew that what Cheryl didn't know was that they already knew the iguana was dead. They were using that iguana story to not alert Cheryl to what they were about to go do. Also, Larry's buick, it couldn't have been retrieved on the twenty third, like they were claiming that they were just going to get their stuff. Okay, the reason is because the buick wasn't even there. Well, Kelly, how can you know that I know that because I pulled records on this, and what I found was that Larry's buick had been towed away before the shooting ever took place. His buick was towed on the twenty first of December at the request of the landlord. All Right, so things were pretty clear at this point. Larry and Ritchie went there that night to rob Ryan, no doubt about it, But they had also planned to either rough him up or kill him, whichever one it was. We know this because they were armed, and they went after dark, and they already knew the iguana was dead and the buick wasn't even there. Their records prove this. So here is what I believe to have happened, in succinct order, with some now newly uncovered information I still haven't told you yet because I found this out in my research. We're gonna have to back

46:38 up all the way to the beginning of two thousand and six, and it's all going to the house that we have been calling Ryan's house. We're still talking about the same house, the house where the shooting took place, Okay, but this is going to be that same house. Well before Ryan ever moved into it, Richie Carver had broken into that very same house back in April of two thousand and six and tore up everything in that house during an ongoing argument. But this is the deal. Back in the April of two thousand and six, Richie's sister and her boyfriend lived in that house. Nobody else that I have mentioned in this story to date. You have none of them. Nothing I've told you to date. Okay.

47:30 Her name is Shante. Shanta and her boyfriend were renting that house. Richie got in an argument with Shanta's boyfriend over I don't know what, He broke into the house, tore up a bunch of shit in the house over this argument, and then he left a note that said, look, I could have stole everything in this house, but I didn't, and for my sister's sake, y'all better get back in touch with me and we better have a talk. When that happened. Richie then admitted to damaging the slide glass door on the house because he broke it when he was tearing up that home in the incident over his sister and the sister's boyfriend. The sister paid to have that door repaired. She even gave a receipt to the landlord saying, look, I took care of it, and because of that, the landlord never prosecuted Richie for the damage because Chante had it fixed. But this is why the sliding glass door could be lifted off of the track and open even if it was locked. This is why Richie knew that, because you just had to know the trick.

48:36 The repairs to the house were done on I guess sheet rock and stuff, but the door, the glass sliding door that just was broken off the track because Richie did it and he knew it. Eventually, the sister's boyfriend and the sister they couldn't make the rent on that house and so they had to move out, and Richie took over the lease in the house. When Richie took over the lease of the house, that's when Southside Eric moved in in October. Ryan then joined the lease as well the same month. Okay, we're in October. Richie then started doing the drugs while I'm out, even worse, doing meth, and he was kicked out for non payment in November.

49:19 So Eric, Hellraiser and Dealicia moved in with Eric's Southside and Ryan right after that. South Side then gets mad at Ryan for throwing that party and so Southside Eric moves out on December the eleventh. On December the thirteenth, that is when the landlord went to get the rent money from Ryan, which he was supposed to leave in the cigarette case on the barbecue pit, but only half the money was there, and that's when she learned from Ryan that Southside Eric had moved out. It was that incident where the landlord saw the iguana in the backyard day and so she made a phone call to Cheryl to tell her, I know Richie's gone, but the iguana is in the backyard. But the iguana then drowns. Soon after that conversation, Ryan finds it throws it over the fence. Well, a neighbor that lived next door to Ryan started complaining about all the believed drug sales at the house, as well as these vehicles that had been parked on the property and they were broken down and they weren't being moved.

50:30 They didn't they didn't want to look at these junk cars that were there, specifically mentioning a Buick, a Chevy truck, and an Azuzu Rodeo. After that complaint, a party is thrown and that's when Richie shows up. Uninvited with Phoenix, the guy Phoenix or whatever. And shots may or may not have been fired in that incident. I don't have confirmation one way or another. That's just what the landlord had said. Well, after this and Phoenix show back up at the house at some point and Ryan pulls a gun on them in his bedroom. After that incident, Richie and his dad Larry show up looking for the iguana.

51:13 Ryan saw them on his security cameras because they had cameras all outside, and so Ryan grabbed his gun before he went and answered the door for Richie and his dad. He let them in, but when they walked in, he made Larry take his gun out of his waistband and he set it on the table before they all sat down on the couch to talk. Larry and Richie said they wanted the iguana and the microwave that they had left there. But Ryan was like, hey, man, I hate to tell you this, but the iguana drowned in the pool and they were like, oh, you know, that sucks whatever, and then Ryan sold both Larry and Richie some weed. When they went to leave, Ryan gave the pistol back to Larry and they left. Well, Larry and Ritchie show back up and they push past hell Raiser Eric and they get chased out by Ryan, and Ryan at that point claims to have hit one of them on the head with a gun. Now, Larry, by the way, is thought to be a Hell's Angel, and that's why Ryan was claiming to everybody that he had struck a Hell's Angel with the gun and the pistol whipping rumors and all that began swirling. The landlord then has the cars toad that were at the house on December the twenty first, including Larry's buick, so it was not even at the house anymore. Alicia and Hellraiser Eric break up. In the meantime, Hellraiser moves out. That's when Richie starts getting more word

52:45 about all of the supposed pistol whipping rumors and he talks to his dad about it. They both feel disrespected, their egos are bruised, and now they're fucking pissed. On December twenty third, so this is just two days later after the cars are towed. That is going to be the day of the shooting. Christina goes to the mall around one pm and then with Heather and then they go take the nap at her dad's house. Heather then spoke to Philip. A little while later, they went by his house and did whatever for a few minutes, and then at six point thirty they start heading back to Ryan's. When they get back to the house, another friend stops by.

53:25 His name was Robert. This is verified by cell phone records, but Robert stops by to buy weed and they all smoke some weed together at Ryan's house. After they smoke, Alicia then left to go to her mom's house for the holidays. A little while later, Ryan made that last phone call he ever made at for the pizza, which arrived at seven forty six pm. Larry and Ritchie tell Cheryl that they are leaving and that they're going to get the iguana and get their stuff. Remember, they already know that that's not going to happen because they already know the iguana's dead and the car's not there. But they also armed themselves unbeknownst to Cheryl as well. Then Heather, while they're traveling towards the house, made her last outgoing call.

54:13 At eight twelve pm, Larry and Ritchie arrive at Ryan's. They sneak around the back of the house. This is around eight twenty pm, after the pizza had just been delivered. Heather and Ryan were sitting on the couch watching TV and they were eating. Richie, because he knows the trick about the door, started lifting the glass door off the tracks so that they could sneak in. He had done this many times before. Ryan heard the door being messed with and he went to investigate. When you saw Richie trying to bust in through the door, Richie raised his gun and he shot Ryan in the face, where Ryan then collapsed to the ground and Heather was then subsequently shot twice immediately after Ryan was dropped. Believing that Ryan was dead, Richie and Larry then robbed the house. They took some of the guns. They took Ryan's laptop before they ran out of the house, jumped back into the Pete Cruiser and sped back home. When they got home, Richie took off and he went to Paradise valleyed in that area to lay loaf for a few days. Larry, who was panicked, loaded up his shit and he left for California. Late on the night of the twenty third.

55:21 At some point, Ryan awoke on the floor completely unaware that he was potentially mortally wounded. He moved about the house on the twenty fourth all day doing small tasks, covering Heather up with a blanket, unaware that she was dead. And then the very next day, which was Christmas, is when the couples no showed for their holiday activities. That same morning, Larry returned back home because he was worried that his wife was cheating on him, and he went to brunch with his family. Later that evening is whenever roommate Alicia arrived back from her mother's house, saying she couldn't get in the house because the dead bolt was locked.

56:03 Ryan let her in the house and when she turned on the lights, he looked beat up. She asked him what happened. Ryan told her, don't worry about it. Two guys tried to break in, but I handled it. At this point, I want you to know. Police did do a follow up interview with Alisha after they had learned all of this, and Alisha would subsequently admit to police that a lot more had happened that night. When she arrived back home. She told them, all right, look, I am the one who cleaned up a lot of the blood in the house. She had not previously said this, and I think it was out of fear that it looked like she might have done something that she didn't do.

56:48 But she said that when she got into the house after Ryan let her in and told her don't worry about it, some people tried to break in. Whatever she saw blood smeared kind of all over the place. When she went into her bathroom in the hallway, she saw blood smeared on the cabinets and all that kind of stuff. It grossed her out, and so she decided, look, don I gotta start cleaning this shit up because Ryan's beat up, and this is gross. When she turned to the tub, the tub had water in it blood, and there was also vomit in the tub, so she needed that to drain. She was completely grossed out, but it wasn't draining because Ryan's wallet had been stuffed down and was blocking the drain hole. So she reached down. She got Ryan's wallet out of the drain, wiped the blood up in the hall and some other blood that she saw in the living room. But she got so grossed out by all of the blood and everything that was going up she just threw her hands up and she said she was done with it. At that point, Ryan walked out of the room and he was moaning. So she did go and get him some Exceedron. But when she was bringing him the Exceedron, she did see Heather asleep on a couch.

58:01 But she said, it was dark in the room. You know, I didn't go in there. I didn't flip the lights on. I did not realize anything had happened to her. I really thought that she was asleep, he said, she said. While I was doing this, Ryan even walked over to Heather, who Alicia thought was sleeping and said, Heather, get up, Heather, wake up. But Heather just kind of seemed to ignore him, and so Ryan just went back to his bed alone. Alicia never entered his room. She just handed him the excentrin, never went into the room, so she never saw the blood that was all over his bedroom. She then went to her room, smoked and fell asleep watching super Troopers, awakened by police the next morning. The rest from this point you already know. Both Richie and his father Larry would be charged with the murder of Heather Kwan and the attempted murder of Ryan Waller. Richie would be convicted in June of two thousand and eight of felony, murder, burglary, aggravated assault, and misconduct involving weapons, and as a result of this, he would be sentenced to life in prison. Now, Richie and his dad, Larry were initially they were charged together okay for this, but a decision would be made later on to separate them and that they should be

59:32 given two separate trials, not tried together. But this would then cause a problem because Larry's case wouldn't run so smooth now, because the case against Larry was based in part on confessions, largely in part of the confessions that his wife Cheryl, had made to police. Well, when police attempted to contact her to give her the subpoena to go to court, Cheryl was suddenly really hard to find. Was she dead, that something happened to her? Well, No, an informant was able to tell police where her location was and where she was staying. I have a seeking suspicion that that informant was Brenda, because they were at one of Brenda's houses. But I don't have direct knowledge to say that to you directly. But when police arrived at that address to serve Cheryl with the subpoena to testify.

1:00:30 Cheryl happened to be walking up to her front door and as their vehicle, the police vehicle came to a stop in front of the house, Cheryl looked up and realized, oh god, the police are stopping at my house. And that's when she tore off, running into her backyard. So the police jump out and they're like Cheryl, Cheryl, Cheryl, she is running. She's trying to get away from him. She doesn't want to be served. So a short chase ensues, but the officers were able to grab her and catch her in the backyard, where they begrudgingly escorted her back to the front yard. So they try to now explain to her, we're not arresting. We're here to give you a subpoena. We're here to subpoena you. She refused to look at it. She wouldn't look at it. She didn't want to talk about it, she didn't want anything to do with it. Well, her adult daughter, one of her adult daughters, was there at the house during this commotion.

1:01:16 She came outside. She was a witness to Cheryl being subpoenaed, and the officers explained what was going on. They both were advised at that point, this is a court order. You are being told to come testify and if you do not show up now you're going to be arrested and go to jail. You've been subpoena to come do this. With that, Cheryl threw her nose straight up in the air and police let go of her because they had now issued the subpoena she had been served. Cheryl literally threw her nose up in the air in like just total defiance, and she stormed off inside into the house. So the subpoena was served to Cheryl, but obviously she was now no longer a helpful witness. So with Cheryl unwilling to testify against her husband, Larry's case began to fall apart. And because of this, incredibly the case against Larry Carver was dismissed. He walked out of jail a free man. Now this is the part where I would love to say the end, and I've wrapped this up in a beautiful bow for you. But there's more. I'm so sorry to tell you this. I've been going for an hour here, but there's more. Yes, it continues on.

1:02:41 I'm going to continue this series, and I'm going to complete this series next week for you. But I want you to trust me, even if you think you know how this ends. Oh, I know this story. You need to listen when I tell you, no, you don't. You don't unless you have pulled the records yourself like I have. I am willing to bet you you have been misled by the media in epic proportions, just as I realized I have been four years until I saw things for myself in black and white. Major news outlets have echoed mistruths and have spawned fairy tales that have altered the course of additional lives in this case that are rarely, if ever mentioned to this point. Laws have now been changed due to this very case, and finger pointing based on emotion rather than the facts continues to cause social disruption in the wake of this case. Still today, will Larry ever be held accountable, Does Cheryl's refusal to cooperate violate any laws? And does a failure to know the whole truth excuse unfounded claims and threats of violence that will be heading towards another family in this instance? As a fair and just society, we owe it to ourselves

1:04:15 to look at all of these issues in totality and decide. I'll tackle this and more in next week's conclusion. Until then, at least one career criminal is off the streets. Thank god Richie is locked up. That's a great thing, with so many chances though, to rethink things. At some point, you'd have thought that Richie would start making better decisions, but he didn't. He kept going back to that house, knowing it would only continue to escalate an already souring situation. All they had to do was leave, go, and don't look back. I mean hell, even the damn iguana knew it needed to haul ass from that house when the poor thing drowned. But because of bruised egos and the decision to rob people instead of getting a job, too, grown ass men went and shot two people, taking the life of one and severely altering the life of the other.

1:05:17 It is truly unbelievable what is going on here, and all we can all do at this point is shake our heads like what the heck? Because when a drowned reptile is winning the common sense contest in your family, it tells me everything that I need to know