The Spokane Serial Killer Part 2

0:00 Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell stories of real crimes with real victims whose cases are so shocking that many are left wondering how is this even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement, corrections, and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so evil many feel they are unspeakable.

0:51 Warning, unspeakable is intended for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm not your girl. Listing discretion is advised. Hey y'all, Kelly Jiddings here back for another episode of Unspeakable. Let's go and on. I'm recording on a Sunday. Thank God for DVRs. I'm recording my Saints game because I gotta give the people what they want and I gotta give it to them all in time. So we got a new episode today, but before I do that, I've got a couple of shout outs that I need to give because the people have messaged me and made sure I knew I had to give them their shout outs and y'all I will not let you down. My word is my bond. So let me start here though. Last episode or two episodes ago, I just said Jade because I didn't have a last name, but I got that last name and so I am gonna give another shout out.

1:35 It's Miss Jade Bible and I thought that was kind of cool too. So hey Jade, I'm sorry, I just called you Jade. You are Jade Bible and I thank you so very much for joining my Patreon and then all the way from Oregon. I've got Miss Sandra Oliver. Hey girl, how are you? I'm so excited to see the states where people listen. I think that's one of the coolest things and Miss Sandra, thank you so much. I really appreciate you joining and being a member of my Patreon. Then Missouri was freaking in the house because Miss Kathy Ray Brown, hey Miss Kathy, I got you. I saw you and I said I gotta give her that shout out and you're right here on my notebook.

2:16 Miss Kathy, how are you and you have someone else? Now I don't know if Sullivan is near Grand B, I think that's how you say it, Missouri, but Miss Amy Garner, hey Amy, hey there. I got both of y'all, y'all friends, y'all know each other? But thank you all so much for listening, so glad to have you and then last but certainly not least I have Mr. Douglas Birchum and he wanted to make sure everybody knew he is actually friends with Jody Plotje and I think that's kind of cool right because y'all got to hear Jody talking a past episode and he was so cute, he was telling me about his daddy and how he said that his dad has heard every slaughter of the word Birchum known to sweet Jesus and I said, dude, let me tell you something, my name is Jennings and everyone calls me Jenkins or something else.

3:06 So you know, I feel that on every level. So to Jade, Sandra, Amy, Kathy and Mr. Douglas, thank you all so, so very much your support means the world and without you, I really couldn't do the podcasting because your support is what makes the difference for me. So welcome to the team and let's dive into this part two of this Douglas Perry episode and something else too, don't forget, I'm usually really active on Facebook but don't forget that Patriot now has a free level that you can join and you don't get everything obviously but you can get more than the average bear I guess would if you don't follow anything so go in there and join that free level and you can see some of my photos and things that I post if you want to be able to see extra as you got to join and you can pick your level and it's whatever you can do it this time.

3:55 So thank you all so much but we're going to pick back up in Spokane, Washington where three sex workers were killed in the late or the early 90s 1990s and the suspect would eventually be identified as Mr. Douglas Perry and the murdered women just as a recap or 26 year old Yolanda Sap, 34 year old Nikki Lowe and 38 year old Kathy Brisbo. And I had mentioned last episode two that a prostitute, another one had come forward and mentioned that she was really freaked out by this experience and that Douglas actually drove by and was ID by that woman as she literally made the report so hey that was some good luck there. And also if you remember ATF had confiscated a bunch of weapons from him which he was not supposed to be in possession of and he had a history of misbehavior at best and I covered that in the last episode.

4:42 So hey if you didn't listen to the last one go listen before you you finished forward on this one. But unfortunately being weird does not constitute an arrest. Thank God right I'd be arrested but being weird can't get you arrested. We have to have hard evidence y'all but the 90s they just weren't up for the forensic challenge in the 90s. We have the advancements that we have today but lucky for us science matured as the years went on. So obviously an investigation was going to be launched and very quickly the Spokane Police Department and the Spokane County Sheriff's Office came to believe that these were going to be serial murders. Why serial? Okay why did they just think this is going to be a serial murder and not just someone that was out there or multiple people out there that were killing these prostitutes and just dumping them after they were using them.

5:31 So the answer was because the modus operandi the mo right was just too similar the women all live similar lives in the sex industry. The perpetrators consistent use of a similar you know small caliber firearm in the killings was something you couldn't overlook and then the location where all of the bodies were dropped it was just too coincidental and I don't believe in coincidences in either do law enforcement. So that's why they believe this to be a serial killer and not multiple people. So the department conducted a joint investigation which is really cool because that means you have more multiple resources and a lot of people attacking the same case just from their own jurisdiction or agency.

6:11 Now remember I've said this like a billion times the same 20% of the population is committing 100% of the crimes and joining efforts is imperative to large scale crime solving. I'm a big proponent of that. I don't think that we need to have these ego trips where no this is my investigation. No if the goal is to solve it let's solve it right let's put all our heads together and criminals often commit crimes in more than one jurisdiction. So joint investigations would reflect that situation and we have to work together to connect the dots if not it's like literally a connect the dots worksheet where we have the dots everywhere but if we don't connect them then we can't see the full scope of what's going on with the person that's committing the crimes.

6:55 And so these joint operations allow for the collection of evidence in each of the jurisdictions involved and it helps them each to build their cases respectively throughout their agencies. Now around the same time other murderers were making their mark on the area as well and one of which was Robert Yates which everyone knows is the Green River Killer and for a brief time he was all over their radar but evidence just simply didn't support him as the killer. They looked I even looked at a report a science it was like a forensic report where they had compared like calibers of weapons and M.O. and all of that and it just while there could have been some slight similarity there it literally was just not enough to make a direct connection and say yes lamb thank you ma'am this was him and good thing they didn't do that because they would have been wrong.

7:47 But eventually he would be abandoned as someone that they thought should be held responsible for these murders and they kept looking but shortly thereafter this investigation went cold as ice I mean nothing no one was calling in tips no other bodies appeared and no other bodies appeared with the same calling card at least as how these women had been murdered and the leads simply dried up you know we have to have these leads and you never know how small the little bit of information that you give can matter matter fact I didn't plan on saying this but I'm going to you real quick if you all follow my Facebook you should have seen that picture of the back of that truck with the blood dripping down it right and I made a joke about hey is it murder or is it deer season okay obviously it's deer season in South Louisiana and other places too right but you know it was just kind of me joking well I didn't take a picture of the full truck because it turns out I actually I actually teach the person driving it I didn't know that at the time but then he stuck his head out the window was waving I was like oh my god hey so buddy if you're listening you know who you are hey buddy all right so what was cool about it though was a little while later after I had posted that on Facebook a gentleman that listen said oh yeah I saw that same truck driving down range and he mentioned this sticker that's on the back window of that truck and mind you I had not put a picture of that back window so I know that he saw the exact same truck I did and then he added plus he drives like an idiot not cracked up

9:18 laughing because now I tell your mama but you know that small little tip what if I was looking for that truck and I didn't know anything about it and then someone else was able to say yeah I saw that truck too with that exact same sticker with the blood and it was driving down you know range avenue at this X amount of time then we get a timeline and that small little bit of information we can go to cameras and we can go looking for that truck and can try to track it down but you know when people aren't calling in anything when prostitutes aren't saying anything else that are working those streets and we have nothing in the murder stop why did they stop you know where did this person go and if they stopped then what was their true motive was that they directly hated those three women or you know what is it like why give me the why right so while Douglass Perry looked like a great suspect the link from him to the women was circumstantial at best and no prosecutor would touch that case at that level with a 10 foot pole I mean considering all you need is and people I think the public misses this sometimes considering all you need is reasonable doubt in a case for someone to walk or just a little bit beyond reasonable doubt for someone to walk on something hashtag case Anthony hashtag oj Simpson you know I'm saying like considering that's all you need no prosecutor is going to want to take on that case put forth all that work

10:51 and only have circumstantial evidence to point to maybe they did it we needed more okay and also don't forget that that pesky fifth amendment right and that we can't have double jeopardy and you know if we try him based on just this this the circumstantial evidence and the case isn't solid and then he's acquitted and he walks it's done and then the women don't get justice a killer walks free and you know that's ridiculous it's a waste of resources and time so while we want immediate response and we want something done now right now it's in the best interest of everybody that we build a solid case before we take it to trial so prosecutors want a strong case so the chance of that doubt is limited in an example real quick I can give you just locally but a lot of people that listen or local is the direct todley serial killer case and baton ruse which I am going to cover and I know people have asked me to cover it I'm absolutely going to do it but some of the victims on the formal charges when there's a lead was was charged some of the victims their names were actually not on that indictment or on those charges and I know that like had to be a punch to the gut to those families but the reasoning makes sense some of the cases against some of the victims were much weaker than the other victims and this would matter tactically

12:24 because the conviction is the most important outcome and I know I mean I don't know I wasn't there but I bet a million dollars which I don't have to give you but I bet you that prosecutor went over this with the families and explained to them with grace but if we put her name on this she could be the link of reasonable doubt that makes him walk on it so do we want the conviction or do we want the name on the paper and the families agreed we don't care we just want him locked up and guess what it worked he was convicted he was put on death row you know sorry spoil alert if you don't know the case but it's kind of like M&M said the rapper you know got a sing for you at least like once in a while but you only get one shot do not miss your chance to blow this opportunity comes once in a lifetime you know right you only get one shot and so if you you don't want to waste it you want to make sure that's good and that it's solid whenever you go forward in front of a jury I mean what do you want for me all I podcast I sing now I'm rapping I ain't no one trick pony okay all I do is wake up and piss excellence I guess I don't know I'm just kidding all right but any who in the mid 90s the investigations and those murders were cold and in order to bring forward that strong prosecutor prosecutorial case there was gun need to be more added it just had to be and because they were waiting and trying to get more evidence five more years would pass and unlike the poor victims in this case science would continue

13:57 to grow and evolve and mature and it turns out improvements in what is known as DNA2 analysis would become available now I'm going to assume you know absolutely nothing about DNA real quick you probably know this but I'll just throw it out there in case you don't but DNA is basically the code if you want to think about it's like the instruction manual for making you know all the proteins that form our bodies right and so DNA testing could be done back in the 90s but this DNA2 allowed for more now total disclaimer y'all I am not a forensic scientist I'm not I won't ever be not bright enough I guess storytelling is my game okay but I know people that are forensic scientists and I know for a fact that they are the most intelligent people and shout out to everyone who works at the crime labs because y'all are the real MVPs okay however in my attempt to explain as much as possible to my listeners I feel like I owe it to you I did my best to derive a simple explanation as this was way too complex for the average Joe like myself but hey I tried so we're on the same level and if I get it wrong y'all can chew me out in the comments but from what I gathered DNA2 would allow for like damaged DNA or DNA that needed to be replicated and then amplified it allowed for that to be achieved through this new testing method so let's say that you had just a poor sample and you needed to make it bigger so that you could do more testing you could amplify

15:29 it or you could you could duplicate I guess I don't know that that's the right word but the DNA2 level made that possible all right so realizing that this was achievable law enforcement then decided to review all of the evidence of the murders and in 2008 they submitted several items of evidence in for this new DNA testing procedure and that turned out to be a good move because a forensic scientist was able to develop a male DNA profile from blood and that blood was found underneath one of miss brisbo's fingernails so we know for fact that this was not her DNA but it was underneath her fingernails and if you know anything about trying to save your own life it's that you scratch claw bite do whatever you can do to get away from the person attacking you so it's pretty damning that it's under her fingernails this was awesome right but now you have to identify that said person that said male DNA who owns it right so it's kind of like you find a wallet in a parking lot that's awesome it's got all the money and it's got all the credit cards it's got everything but who the hell does it belong to now you got to figure that out and you got multiple people with the same name and you got a lot of people that are on you know every platform that you might reach out to try to find them so now we have who it is in terms of DNA but we don't have who it is in terms of an ID or a name and this was when the profile was entered into what's known as codis which was in 2009 the combined DNA index system and as look what have it there was no immediate hit so

17:08 it's like damn right we got way more than we had but now we can't ID the person pretty frustrating so I've been to our local state police crime lab on a few occasions and I even was a guest speaker there at one of their conferences recently but I remember seeing the code of system and the woman that was touring me when I went she mentioned that you know codis is not like in the movies or like in you know a 30 minute episode of forensic files or something it's not like they just maybe put it in and then ding here's the person that it belongs to she said that it's a very slow process where it can take hours or even days for a full scan to complete think about it how many people have their DNA in that system I mean they've got state employees might my DNAs and you know taken when I worked in the prison systems and all that so state employees DNA are in there the criminals are all in there and I know that as of April of 2021 the 20 millionth DNA profile was contributed to the national DNA database in that code is software so we've got 20 million people's DNA that has to be compared you can see why it's kind of a bigger task than the movies make it out to be right so basically what codis does is it links an unknown DNA left during the commission of a crime to offenders who are legally required to provide samples into the database now why why would we make people put their DNA

18:41 into the database because the same 20% of the population commits 100% of the crimes it makes sense to get their DNA right so the FBI introduced this database in 1998 and the program just for your shits and giggles of your own jeopardy that program began with only nine states actually using it and then it's expanded now to all 50 and it's used to share those DNA profiles across all 50 states including our federal law enforcement agencies and the Department of Defense it is a valuable tool but why would all of these agencies need everybody's DNA again because the criminals are traveling but they're still being criminals they're doing things all over poor all you know Ella goody that I did the the episode on a few a few episodes back you know I feel like DNA should have solved this once we find her body unfortunately it's been so long now that her body is probably decomposed but you know that fool that we think did it I think did it was found in another state with her vehicle people don't stop being criminals just because they go across a jurisdictional line like give me a break right so through this amendment an expansion of the DNA identification act that was in 1994 codis continues to help public forensic laboratories link crime scene evidence to other cases

20:17 or other persons already convicted or arrested for specific crimes and that expansion has broadened codis and it's helping criminal investigations lead to more prosecutions across the nation and I know locally if you're listening you know where I'm from we recently got one of the first what's called rapid DNA systems installed in our parish jail and y'all the internet went wild you know people were all open arms oh they're gonna take our DNA and use it against us and all this bullshit and I'm like no bro we're not gonna take your day your DNA if it's not a qualifying offense do your research we're not gonna take your DNA because you're on a stop sign you know I'm saying like don't rob murder rape or kill and you're probably good so simmer down and what you're gonna find is that over the next year we are gonna solve more crimes than you're in your in your wildest dreams in our local area because that DNA is gonna link them I'm telling you just watch it happen you can call me a psychic in a year whenever I come back with the with the data for you all right so moving forward eventually a hit would be made but it would take a few years but strangely this is where shit gets weird when they got the hit of the DNA it came back as a woman how if it's male DNA that was found under the fingernails and then they finally get a hit how is it coming back to a woman all right

21:53 well mistakes can be made of course and stranger things have happened I mean computer entry could have been mislabeled or something along those lines but this was DNA and DNA doesn't lie so how in the actual hell is a male DNA hitting in the system but it's a female and police had the same question right well remember how Perry had been Douglas Perry had been taken into custody by the ATF for those weapons charges that I had mentioned in those violations well in November of 2012 the county sheriff's detective named James dressback and Spokane police detective Mark Burbridge arranged a meeting to go see Perry he was being held as a federal inmate at the Spokane County jail to try you know they wanted to go try and sort this out and say okay we got to figure out what's going on here thing is when Perry came into the room it was quite obvious that this was someone wanting to portray themselves as a female and absolutely but fucking ugly wanted that if I'm just going to be honest but presenting that way no less even the inmate ID showed as female but it was a man you could tell all right so in quarring minds want to know what's up with that right like what what is going on here well check this out remember when the original officer pulled Perry over when the prostitute pointed him out during the complaint he drove by and she goes that's him right there that's the

23:25 weirdo with the mannequins and all the weird stuff in his house and then he went and he searched Perry's vehicle but all he found was like some surgery literature and other items that were random in the car well guess what that surgery paperwork was about a friggin sex change turns out between that pullover and the new DNA2 developments old Douglas in the year 2000 underwent gender reassignment surgery in Thailand and became Donna Perry it's times like this y'all that I think I actually might be turning into my grandmother because I'm gonna echo her sentiments because she always says to me I'm getting too old for this shit and I think I am too is this really the world that we're living in like really but I guess it is so police are tracking down Douglas who sperm was at the scene and end up with a Donna over here who now says he's a woman just because he cut off his pecker but who likely raped and murdered three women with sed-missing pecker years ago okay Jesus so turns out our police had the right guy but he was now a she all righty them so here they are now with Dickless Douglas and they were armed with a search warrant for his DNA now if you think I'm being disrespectful disrespectful

24:59 of someone who went through a sex change well you're damn right I'm absolutely being disrespectful disrespectful he showed no respect for his victims when he dumped them like trash he showed no regard for their lives when he made them suffer he showed no regard for them when he dumped them and posed them and humiliated them so I don't give a damn what trash you know what trash can your pecker resides in you're just a murderer with a fake vagina so get the fuck out of my face that's how I feel about this it infuriates me infuriates me because wait till you get this explanation of of why he did what he did so as you can imagine Douglas fain's confusion as to why the detectives were there and at the outset of the interview the detectives told him that they were working in old case and they wanted to see if Perry could help them and needed to first advise him of his rights so that's sweet right I mean Yolanda Nikki and Kathy they had their rights just taken from them with no prior warnings issued but the police did their job and they read him his rights you have the right to remain silent anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law you have the rights when attorney if you cannot afford one will be provided for you do understand your rights and upon the advising of his rights Perry said and this is a direct quote I should probably have an attorney here if you're gonna question me about something well Yolanda Nikki and Kathy should

26:30 have a bodyguard if you're gonna go try to kill him they didn't get that but detective dress back who had been reading the rights from a card that he had pointed out to Perry that he had noted her or his we have you want to refer to him on the card and then Perry signed the card detective dress back then said okay we have another order of business we have to take care of today and he told Perry that he had a search warrant to obtain his DNA sample and when Perry asked in conjunction with what the detective answered that it was in conjunction with some old cases that they were investigating well when Perry asked what the detectives meant by old cases this is the following exchange that was had detective dress back said well I want to make sure that you want to talk to me about this okay and Perry said well I think I have I should have a lawyer here if you're gonna take the DNA in all of this and that's when Burbridge had to kind of school him a little bit and said your lawyer doesn't get to be here while we serve the search warrant because guys a lawyer can't override a search warrant the judge signed off on it you're taking the DNA and to me it was really interesting that Dickless Douglas wants to know more about you know the information they're trying to get but in the same breath doesn't want to talk and wants a lawyer and he also isn't very empathetic about denying anything so Perry what would ask the detectives why they wanted his DNA and detective Burbridge responded

28:01 we have a search warrant for first degree murder and we believe that you have information about that about that murder and Perry started asking additional questions and detective Burbridge told him again you wanted a lawyer so I can't talk to you if you want to talk to us then and then Perry cut its cuts him off and says yeah I need a lawyer for something like this and Burbridge then says well then you need to tell me that so Perry repeated it yeah I think I better have a lawyer this is crazy Perry was provided with the search warrant but said he couldn't read it without his glasses so detective dress back read it to him he then instructed him how to swab the inside of his cheek to provide the samples and whenever Perry handed those swabs back to the detective Perry said am I being accused of murder or something and detective dress back responded that he was the prime suspect in multiple murders so I feel like the police were very open with why they were there and what they were doing and after Perry stated that he didn't understand what was going on the following exchange occurred and I pulled this from a an appeal document that I found Perry stated that he didn't understand what was going on and then detective Burbridge said again Donna we can't talk to you you've asked for a lawyer unless you tell us you want to sit down and talk so this is one of those typical things where I know my rights and I want a lawyer but then you want

29:32 to talk about it well you can't have it both ways either you want to talk you want to have a lawyer and you want to shut up pick one so dress back said and you do understand that the rights of you having an attorney and your right to remain silent those are your rights all they do is restrict me they don't restrict you in any way you have the right to talk and you have the right not to talk okay so I'm obviously going to honor your right to an attorney at this time which is why we're not freely discussing the whole thing with you but it's your right he then said he was going to tape up the box with the DNA samples and he'd be back with a copy of a return for Perry and then the detectives left the room for about five minutes well when they came back they gave him a copy of the search warrant and Perry told the detectives tell me what's going on I don't understand a thing I need a lawyer or someone to explain what's actually going on the detectives gave a brief description of the crimes and the code is hit that led them to him so then Perry asked additional questions and expressed that he was quote unquote paranoid and in a total panic mode and had a million questions now detective dress back responded well I have about a thousand so you've gotten more than me and like I said before it's your right if you want at any time to talk to me but you have the right to choose not to but until that happens I'm not too terribly comfortable asking you anything about it to clarify things so that's where we're at do you have any questions for me and Perry said

31:08 what are the names of the people now real quick y'all if you didn't kill anybody why would their names matter just curious like what is that going to change anything if you know their names is that going to help you out in any way why why why aren't you freaking screaming from the rooftops I didn't kill anybody what are you talking about no what are their names right so Burbage says I'm not comfortable going down that road not yet and that's when Perry expressed again how upset he was about being a suspect the detective said they were going to give him time to finish the soda that they had brought him and then they'd be back and they were going to take him back into the jail so detective dress back returned roughly six minutes later and gave Perry his business card and told him to let him know if she or he whatever decided that he wanted to talk and Perry reiterated how upset he was including to ask for the detectives pistol and one round so that he could quote unquote finish it but then said well let's talk let's sit down and talk I need to work this out in my head so in essence he wanted to he wanted to talk he said he wanted a lawyer but he wanted to talk and this would be what we call a stressed out worried she man at this point all right so detective burbridge entered the room and detective dress back said that before they could talk he needed to reread the rights to him he reread the rights and asked if he understood

32:39 them and Perry said yes all right detectives did their job right they followed the law to a T and now old boy wants to talk so they asked if he wanted to answer any of the questions and Perry said I'll try to answer your questions and the detective needed the signature on the advice of the rights card and Perry then signed it and during the questioning that followed Perry told the detectives I did pick up some prostitutes yes but I always let them out and they were alive and well when I let them out so detective burbridge suggested that something made Perry stop killing something had to make these people stop being killed and this is the following exchange that occurred and again these are direct quotes from some paperwork I'll pull remember also there was a total denial of any responsibility before this detective burbridge says here here's the real thing the question is to me people that kill people multiple people over periods of time they generally keep going once it starts and Perry says yeah and then burbridge said so the question to me is you know as a law enforcement that studied this in depth and Perry says uh-huh per per uh burbridge says what made Donna stop so then I ask myself and then Perry interrupts him and this is what he says

34:10 Douglas didn't stop Donna stopped it the gender change operation at that point I'm like what in the Bruce general Olympics is going on here so now he's saying he did kill I guess when he was going by Douglas but Donna has no responsibility and so you know burbridge comes back do you think that's what stopped it and Perry says I have yeah I'm convinced of it dress back says I hadn't thought of that that's that's a good question and burbridge says well here's another another one I'm wondering too is where is she because dress back says there's no more testosterone to fuel the anger right and shortly thereafter as the detectives continue to question Perry if she had committed the murder she says I'm not going to admit I killed anybody I didn't Donna has killed nobody and burbridge comes back and says so Doug did and Perry says I don't know if Doug did or not it's 20 years ago and I have no idea whether he did or didn't so while Perry denied many times in the remainder of the interview that Doug had murdered any of the victims she later repeated that she quote got rid of violence with the sex change

35:43 operation so as you can see there's a lot going on turn this exchange from denials to talking in the third person to acting as if you're someone else other than who you were 20 years ago like literally implying that it's not the same person so naturally this raised a lot of eyebrows and it seemed as though maybe you know did he have a sex change to not take responsibility for his actions of murdering three innocent women and others thought no he's just a pervert and a sexual freak but you know I found a criminologist I was reading some articles and things who made a pretty compelling argument that the killings were motivated by jealousy because Douglass wanted to be a woman himself and that sounds silly off the top but if you think about it he did claim that he had transitioned into being a female to stop the male persona from being violent so I can get on board with that but not in an honorable way as Perry seems to try and spin it you know I could see that the argument could be made that he wasn't you know he wouldn't be as jealous of the prostitutes if he thought in his mind that he had achieved their sexuality I know this is getting kind of weird but I mean I could understand the argument but this is still irrelevant to the situation it's like we as a society are supposed to somehow just understand his personal problem as though it was one society needed to come to terms with no partner that's not how this is going to go

37:14 whatever your personal problems are they're just that they're personal they're yours and no woman alive should have paid the price because you wanted to play dress up and be an ugly man with long hair you know what I'm saying detective dress back who interviewed Perry also made the connections that Perry was acting I mean was actually dating his roommate Claire Ann remember her she was the one that the detectives were wanting to interview but she was found to be awarded the state or of a of a caretaker and then she ended up dying well he made the connection detective did that Perry was actually dating the roommate Claire Ann before his sex change operation and she too was a sex worker who also suffered with a cocaine addiction and her being arrested played a role in motivation and that the detective felt the timing of the murders was a key here this was his direct quote it was interesting that Claire Ann was booked into jail on the night that two of these women were killed now she's back in jail again and that makes Doug Perry mad and then he finds somebody to take it out on and the first people he's gonna look at are the people that maybe he thinks are standing in his way it seems to me pretty obvious that the sex change was the end goal of Perry the whole time I don't think that that was to get out of any responsibility I think he wanted the sex change one criminologist stated that him procuring sex workers having sex with them and then discarding of

38:46 the bodies and showing just this reverent irreverence that he had towards them was all part of the master plan and I totally agree with that with that statement but also that criminologist brought up Perry's childhood as a possible motivator in these crimes which there are claims that he was you know oppressed by hyper masculinity and sexual harassment from his father I don't know about that that was just an argument made by that criminologist and so he says he needed to perfect he needed to become he needed to get away from the little boy that was supposedly raped by his father and become a woman who could actually provide sex to other men that was the game plan in Perry's mind Perry was killing the thing that he hated and then trying to become the perfection of it he added that was that criminologist standpoint I don't know what do you think I should tell me what do you think I don't know kind of seems like a cop out to me knowing full well that he wouldn't be approved and knowing that he would have to go out of the country to get the surgery it probably bolstered his hatred towards women because they were born with this they didn't have to go get all the work done that he had to go through and so he had this building boiling over anger towards these women so in essence the argument is made that Perry was denied his real sexuality while regular women

40:18 were not well he didn't have to have a period so I take offense to that he didn't have stomach cramps he didn't have to give birth he didn't have to do a lot of the things that women these days do he wanted to dress up he didn't want to really go through the motions I don't buy that and if you don't like what I'm telling you that's okay it's America you can disagree with me but what a joke what an absolute just joke of a human being you know and again you can't make a personal problem that you have a social one society doesn't need to pay for your problems that you're having and if we do go along with that justification or ideology as acceptable well then school shootings and genocide and racism and all of the above would be acceptable under that logic right because I don't like you because of my problem so I'm gonna go hurt you because that's basically what happened here no thanks no thank you right so I appreciate the why but I don't appreciate what was done to innocent women coming to terms with his sexuality and anger does not absolve him of the responsibility of killing other women because of jealousy it's like freaking fatal attraction the law does not care either about your sexuality it cares about you not hurting others and that said are you curious about what

41:53 we do with people who have undergone like sex change surgery after conviction because I thought I'd touch on that real quick well when I was at Angola um if men came in with breast implants but they still had a penis they still went to male prison because you're a male you just paid to have fake boobs put in right you're still a man but if the undercarriage has had work that now changes things Douglas Perry was housed in a women's facility this becomes interesting too okay and again y'all I'm not being hateful I'm just trying to show the disparity here between the the the care and the and the thought process that we put into these criminals in their bad childhoods but none to those victims because they were sex workers no give me a break it becomes interesting because when Perry was being held in that women's facility a few things came to light right about how damaged he was in 2013 law enforcement learned that Perry had been making incriminating statements to a fellow inmate his his celly named Chero Everson and she uh Chero shared a cell with Perry at the federal prison in Texas and Detective dress back in Burbridge traveled to Texas in June of 2013 to interview her

43:29 and according to Miss Everson although she and Perry were only incarcerated together for about a month and a half Perry came to trust her and even started asking about the two of them getting married getting married so so I guess now he's a lesbian like I cannot even keep up with this dude's psyche you wanted to become a woman so you could have sex with other women what in the world is happening here Miss Everson also said that Perry told her he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia and was a sociopath and that guns and ammunition were his hobbies and that he had made money becoming a contract killer okay so Perry then also told Miss Everson that she had killed prostitutes at first saying that that that he had killed nine prostitutes but then later would say it was more like between 20 and 30 and then had a discussion with Chero Everson that the prostitutes were seen as and this is a direct quote nothing they were nobody's they were pond scum also according to Miss Everson was that Perry said he was jealous of the prostitutes because they could have families and she even testified at Perry's trial and said that um Perry told her

45:09 that he became a woman to disguise himself and to get the heat off of him because nobody would look for an elderly lady with a mental condition I don't feel sorry for him y'all and there is an absolute deflection of guilt between the two identities and minimization of responsibility for sure if you're paying attention to what's going on here and I would argue that the sex change didn't stop the criminality either because he already had completed the sex change when he got in trouble for the weapons charges so maybe the sexual component was reduced but criminality did not stop altogether that was not the only motivating factor behind what he did the massive reduction in testosterone alone would you know chill out a man I mean we know that because we treat male sex offenders with depopravera in some instances they get female hormones in essence you know chemical castration and some states even allow what's called an orcaectomy if you've ever heard of that which is basically physical castration but it still doesn't undo the damage and death and abuse that these these men do to their victims and the same here goes with Douglas or Donna I mean you know write something ugly and crumble it up on a piece of paper right and then tell that paper you're sorry and then undo that paper did it undamaged the paper no so regardless of what crazy justification he came up with in his mind penis or not he's a dangerous sexual deviant murderer he took a personal problem and he made it a social problem period so ultimately though that DNA sample that was obtained

46:45 from Helm was analyzed by the Washington State Patrol crime lab and was compared with other evidence obtained from the murder victims and their surroundings and guess what after a complete analysis was done it was proved to be definitive as a match to the blood found under miss brisbo's fingernail it was a match a weaker one but a match to that floral blanket found near miss yolanda saps body and it was also a match to a vaginal swab of miss brisbo he was in on or around every one of those women that were murdered so news flash dickless Doug you are caught no matter what mental disorder you have going on in your head it was you committing the crimes you had the same blood do that I mean when like when I was five I didn't have boobs y'all but I don't claim today that I have them that it wasn't me who drew on the walls and spilled juice all over the kitchen the body is just a little different but it's still me you are still Doug you are just missing your penis and changed your name you should have you should have changed your name to like from Dougless to Dougless because that's the only difference you're missing a piece you know I'm saying but going back to the ATF investigation and that ultimate arrest I found some other information too during that search ATF agent Lance Hart spoke with Perry and he described Perry as extremely knowledgeable about firearms and very protective of the ones that were in his possession an agent aren't asked agent Hart asked

48:19 Doug how did you obtain these weapons how do you buy them and Perry said he at one time held a federal firearms license but he lost it because they had found an unregistered machine gun in his possession the dude doesn't follow the rules y'all and it was also then that Douglas added he was a woman trapped in a man's body and made money by dressing up and engaging in prostitution this dude is a problem then you flash forward to 2014 and the claims stated by Doug shifted a bit now he takes the approach that somehow the Donna character he made up is morally superior to the Doug that he once was and in an affidavit that I read he said direct quote Dougless didn't stop Donna stopped it when he's talking to the police well if you had no idea back when your DNA was taken of what was happening and you had no recollection of how you know of what Dougless did now that your Donna then how the hell do you know that Donna is who stopped Doug and stopped Doug from what get out of here with that just just get out of here get out of my face a one one crime expert that I was looking at some of his reports and things written his name was Brian Frederick he said that he thinks that Douglas Perry picked up the victims based on their looks because he felt like there was jealousy and he said that I think he picked him up because they were attractive remember I told you these

49:54 women were pretty women and that they were more attractive than Douglas would ever be even if he became Donna and so he was mad and jealous because they were squandering their beauty by giving sex to men who didn't necessarily have the purpose that he had and this guy says he was on a mission he was mission oriented and he just was mad so he was killing the women and I couldn't say I don't disagree Perry also told that roommate in prison that he would quote pick a target study them guess their moves and what they were gonna do where they went and then he would execute them now they did ask in court because I guess they wanted to verify that miss ever send the roommate cell mate wasn't being I guess a I don't know what the word would be your homophobic or what it transphobic or whatever they said why do you keep using male pronouns whenever you're describing Perry like why aren't you calling her a she and this was pretty important to me ever since said it was because Perry told her that the reason for the sex change operation was to avoid detection and she said that every interaction she ever had with Perry was as if he was a male he was not interacting with her as if he was a female so then she went on to further say that Perry claimed to have killed the prostitutes in a vehicle by a river and then kicked their bodies out of the vehicle and left them behind

51:30 and then also said that Perry was bragging and said that the police just didn't know really what they were doing that Perry was able to dispose of evidence and got away with it and that law enforcement had even unknowingly destroyed some of the firearms he used to commit other murders then she also testified that she received nothing in exchange for her information or her testimony against Perry and that she eventually had asked the staff to move her away from Perry because she was afraid of him and they honored that request and put her in a different unit when the when the police went to Texas to bring Perry to Spokane for the trial Perry said to them I'm never gonna get out of this instead of jail I hope they'll just send me to some eastern state hospital I'm not violent now and that the plane ride would be quote unquote the last time she would ever be outside of concrete walls well boo freaking who because when you killed the three women that was the last time they were on this side of the dirt at least you get to eat at least you get to talk to people at least if anybody wants to visit you they can the other women didn't get that opportunity because you chose to snuff out their life because you felt you were somehow superior to them and they didn't matter what the fact is they did they mattered and as such the state charged Perry with three counts of premeditated first degree

53:05 murder with the aggravating circumstance that their murder was part of a common scheme or plan involving one or more victims and at the conclusion of a trial that took several weeks the jury did find Perry guilty is charged answering yes to special verdict forms asking if the murders had been part of a common scheme or plan so the trial court sentenced Perry to three life sentences to be served consecutively which means one after the other without the possibility of parole or early release on top of that they also imposed a seven hundred and ten dollar fine in legal financial obligations and a five hundred dollar fee for the crime victim assessment fee as well as a one hundred dollar DNA collection fee and a one hundred and ten dollar criminal filing fee so Donna or Douglas or Dickless or daughter or Daffy Duck or whatever the hell title you want to give yourself you did it you did the crime and Justice Delayed is Justice denied so while it took a while for there to be a trial twenty seven years to be exact justice in the lawful sense was finally achieved and it was served and I told you this was a weird one there was no rhyme or reason just evil in my opinion and this killer deserves to be behind bars if not executed so to me is preoccupation with this genitals is really what got him where he is and it's weird to me it's like why do

54:38 men with the smallest dicks always have the biggest complex is you need to calm down push pop (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (dramatic music playing)